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Stick to the facts.
Israel has never heard of an eye for an eye. They have a history of retaliation with a factor of at least 10X.
Israel has never heard of an eye for an eye. They have a history of retaliation with a factor of at least 10X.
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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No hope I am afraid the whole thing is a mess and laying the foundations on both sides for the continuation of more violence.
The death toll is coming from hamas. I'd take it with a grain of salt. That's not to say there isn't deaths.
Palestinians ain't on the West's side. I've known a few and it's always been "death to America" type bs from them.
Let the middle East sort it out.
Knobby22
Mmmmmm 2nd breakfast
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This is a great article -everyone should read it from an Australian Jewish reporter who for many years was based in the middle east. he can see disaster. He is scared. Some excerpts:
"I was feeling that Hamas had laid a giant trap for Israel and that Israel, led by a prime minister who should be in prison, was possibly making the greatest strategic and moral mistake of its 75-year existence."
"I was feeling that US President Joe Biden was making a catastrophic error by aligning his country so unambiguously with Israel when – apart from destroying Hamas – Israel’s goals remained ill-defined. Who, for example, would rule the ruins of Gaza after this?"
"I am outraged and sickened by the atrocities Hamas perpetrated on October 7, by the rapes and abductions and the wanton slaughter of babies, children, the elderly, the disabled, pregnant women. I am also outraged – shocked to the core in fact – by the failure of some on the left to condemn these abominations.
But as a Jew I cannot stay silent in the face of the horrors now being inflicted on the people of Gaza by a lawless Israeli prime minister largely responsible for the disaster that has befallen his country. Albert Einstein once said, “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it”. In other words, you cannot kill the power of an idea with the force of bombs, and you cannot starve, besiege and terrify millions of innocent Palestinians as retribution for the atrocities of an abhorrent and murderous organisation such as Hamas."
Stop annihilating innocent Palestinians in my Jewish name
I don’t know how to eliminate Hamas’ leadership, but I know it can’t be done like this.
Dona Ferentes
A little bit OC⚡DC
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Religion.
The root of all eveil.
mick
The root of all eveil.
mick
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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Given the young average age in Gaza dead kids is expected so you get the question below, that's beside the question given the incompetence of Netanyahu's government what's the end game?
"Is the killing of almost 1,000 children a week self-defence?"
"These agencies believe that the number of Palestinian children who have been killed since the war started three weeks ago is close to 3,000, although they say it could be much higher as hundreds of children are missing, possibly buried under rubble."
A confronting question that needs an answer: Is the killing of almost 1,000 children a week self-defence?
In this war between Israel and Hamas, we are in unprecedented territory. The civilian death toll has become so heavy so quickly, and yet Western leaders aren't expressly calling for a ceasefire, writes John Lyons.
www.abc.net.au
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Notwithstanding the abomination that is the current Israeli government, a lot of you have first order thinking on this issue. I will get into some fun facts later. In the meantime, think a little deeper.
Where are these figures coming from?Given the young average age in Gaza dead kids is expected so you get the question below, that's beside the question given the incompetence of Netanyahu's government what's the end game?
"Is the killing of almost 1,000 children a week self-defence?"
"These agencies believe that the number of Palestinian children who have been killed since the war started three weeks ago is close to 3,000, although they say it could be much higher as hundreds of children are missing, possibly buried under rubble."
A confronting question that needs an answer: Is the killing of almost 1,000 children a week self-defence?
In this war between Israel and Hamas, we are in unprecedented territory. The civilian death toll has become so heavy so quickly, and yet Western leaders aren't expressly calling for a ceasefire, writes John Lyons.
Same place as Russian casualties in Ukraine?
I don't trust Palestinian numbers. They are some of the best propagandist in the world.
I also questioned this whole situation from the start. Did Israel's government let the atrocities happen at the start.
Should mention that I don't think it's self defence. But preventative action with little regard to the human cost.Given the young average age in Gaza dead kids is expected so you get the question below, that's beside the question given the incompetence of Netanyahu's government what's the end game?
"Is the killing of almost 1,000 children a week self-defence?"
"These agencies believe that the number of Palestinian children who have been killed since the war started three weeks ago is close to 3,000, although they say it could be much higher as hundreds of children are missing, possibly buried under rubble."
A confronting question that needs an answer: Is the killing of almost 1,000 children a week self-defence?
In this war between Israel and Hamas, we are in unprecedented territory. The civilian death toll has become so heavy so quickly, and yet Western leaders aren't expressly calling for a ceasefire, writes John Lyons.
You think the arab world is going to take in the refugees?
No.
I think it was a Saudi minister that said "the west takes in the trash from the rest of the world". It will be another mass movement of people so Israel can grab more land.
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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Agree the UN estimate about 600 kids I think but how many is too many?
Haven't the Israelis already killed 200 before the war started?
Moralising about any aspect of this conflict is pointless but think it's fair to say killing kids and civilian's in the current numbers is beyond reason.
Still the US and us killed far more during the Iraq war...eh.
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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I thought Iran was running this one not the Arabs?
Arabs will be happy Israel is digging a big hole for itself.
Biggest failure of Israelite defense total cluster, Netanyahu and his RW government should be gone.
My worry is that if the west allows mass casualties. Then we open ourselves to the same attitude to our own civilians if this turns into a broader conflict.
It would be a different thing if we were watching our own die.
Scorched earth worked for Genghis Kahn though.
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Question 1 - a thought experiment:
Imagine for a second that the power dynamics were reversed in the Levant, whereby the Islamic nations had the superior military power.
What would happen then?
Do folks think that the nation of Israel would even exist at this point?
We have a window into what might happen in the shape of the 1967 war, where, save for the superior military might of the Israelis, that nation would not exist in this day and age.
We also have the stated goals of Hamas and Hezbollah, that the mission of Israel should be destroyed and every Jew within it, vis a vis "River to the sea".
Supplementary question for extra points: would the anti-semitic leftists, Islamists and various other Hamas supporters be protesting so violently in favor of the Jews and the Jewish state?
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Fairly pointless I'm afraid, we have to deal with reality not fantasy.
Hamas has to go , they are no good to anyone.
How it's done is another matter. There are rules that 'civilised' countries have to abide by. It would be much better imo if Israel differentiated between terrorists and civilians and gave incentives that got the normal civilians on their side rather than bombing and starving them.
How many terrorists are going to be made out of otherwise peaceful civilians seeking revenge for their lost children, partners , grandmothers etc ?
It's an unholy mess over there and it's not all the fault of one side.
Knobby22
Mmmmmm 2nd breakfast
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Dont forget their traditional right wing enemies also who say they run the worlds finances, fascists, etc. even Croatia.
But yes, as per the article I posted above:
In my darkest moments, I feel like this is the coming together of forces beyond anyone’s power or imagination to solve, perhaps the end of something, or the beginning of the end of something else. It is a war waged on children by adults, a war waged on the future by the past, and it is a war that the world needs to stop right now ... and, yes, that means Australia, too, joining the family of nations on a United Nations vote calling for an immediate truce in Gaza.
and
we were seeing the pieces of a hellishly complex only-in-the-Middle East puzzle finally assembling themselves – America behind Israel, Iran behind Hamas and Hezbollah, Russia behind Iran, China behind Russia? – and that this was what the beginning of global confrontation looked like.
and
feeling like the virus of antisemitism was now spreading with lightning speed – Islamophobia too – and that for the first time in my sheltered, privileged life I could access – deep in my waters – the collective historical trauma of being Jewish – that nowhere was really safe for Jews,
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Agreed, however I think little thought experiments like this may expose a little bit of anti-semitism in certain quarters.
How *should* Israel go about this? I'm afraid sitting in circles, holding hands and chanting Om just isn't going to offer any solutions.
I don't think anyone with a heart doesn't regret the killing of innocents, but it is an inevitable fact of war, a war started in this instance by an act of unbelievable barbarism.
My parents lived in the Tyneside in England during World war Two and they were bombed relentlessly because of the shipyards there.
I don't know how many innocents are doing this were killed during that overall conflict...
....London, Coventry, Newcastle, Dresden, Dusseldorf, Berlin...
Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...
... anyone?
It's @#$&ing diabolical.
But should Israel, in the interests of fair play and a jolly good show old chap, pull their punches thereby enabling Hamas to regroup and attack again and again and again and again, spitting in the face of Israeli magnemininity?
@#$& that.
The power to end this and live in peace lies with the Palestinians themselves, no more rockets, no more terrorist attacks, no more ******* ridiculous River to the sea propaganda.
Maybe then Gaza could actually be the Singapore of the Levant, as has been muted.
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Being picky, it's *mooted*, "muted" is silenced.
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Yes indeed, IIRC I did type out mooted, but may have been a victim of the dreaded autocorrect.
Words have specific meanings and correct spelling is important, so
