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Israel - Palestine

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Macquack said:
This just reinforces in my mind that religion should have no place in the running of any country's government. This includes the USA/ Britain/ Australian "Christian" based governments.
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Hard to do in a democracy.

Got any ideas on how you would enforce that ?
 
SirRumpole said:
Hard to do in a democracy.

Got any ideas on how you would enforce that ?
Click to expand...

Education, I suppose?

Take away the government funding to the religious based schools (Muslim, Catholic, Jewish.... ) and see if their places of worship will take up the slack? Not likely.
 

If I put up pictures of flattened buildings, a picture of an infant boy where the back half of his head is blown off and whose father is so delirious he weeps and dangle the boy's favourite toy, begging him to come back... would these make it "equal"?

No one is supporting any killing, from any side... but if it make you feel better to clump all Arabs, from all wars, from all countries together as terrorists or terrorist to be, then justify the killing of other innocent Arabs, use it to justify occupation and oppression of other Arabs... that's wrong, but OK, who am I to tell you right from wrong.

What the Israeli gov't is doing to the Palestinian people is wrong.
You can point to other act of murder, other genocides; you can point to the Holocaust, can point to Imperial British, Japanese, Chinese, Mongolian, Greek, Persian, Arabs... point to all those act of genocide throughout history to excuse the CURRENT action by Israel, they don't make it right.

And this is the 21st century... there are some sort of an educated population in some sort of democratic and civilised countries... So live in the dark ages and colonial era if you want.
 

True.

In a seminar by Miko Peled, whose grandfather was actually one of the signatory to Israel's declaration of Independence and whose father was a general in Israel's senior command... Miko said that after Israel's victory of 1967, his father, who was one of the generals, told the leadership to make peace with the Palestinians.

The general even bring evidence of peace agreements from Palestinian leadership, he argued that since Israel is in a strong position, it could and should draw its borders, make peace with the people around it and keep to its Jewish national character.

That with the millions of Arab Palestinians around, to do otherwise will mean occupation, mean devoting its people to perpetual armed services, mean resistance and reprisals... and in the end will mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

How true.
 
Very true.
There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then and it appears too late now.
 

From one of Chomsky's interviews, he said that there was this young Arab-Israeli couples in Israel wanting to buy a house - to start a family. They were refused and the case went all the way to Israel's High Court.

The Court said it's illegal to barred Israelis from buying property... Then soon after there are new laws to get around that. One of them is a law that allow neighbours to reject new neighbours whose race or religion dilute or whatever their current neighbourhood's racial/religious character.

So when you want to make any state a religious state, or a state based on skin colour, the result will have to be laws that discriminate, that favour and oppress one type of religion or colour over another.

---

From this seminar with Miko Peled, Max Blumenthal and Stephen Niven [?]... Niven described the trend in Israel towards "Judazification" of Palestine/Israel where the leadership are slowly moving away from using the Holocaust and 1948 as justification of Jewish Israel, but are using funny archaeology to indoctrinate its people, and fool the world I guess, that the Jewish people has always been in Palestine/Israel - dating back as far as 3,500 years.

One example is the demolition of an Arab neighbourhood of some 50,000 Arabs on some evidence that it was on the old Kingdom of David.

So they did some digging, remove entire neighbourhood, send the Arabs to refugee camps or something... and now on that land is a theme park with trade mark slogans like "This is where it all began". There are tour guides and "artifacts" to prove the Jews were here first.

The idea, he said, is to say that since the Jews were here first, anyone that come after are foreigners sitting on stolen Jewish land.

Niven said it's the trend now all over the West Bank... there's a rock or a pottery with Hebrew writing; there are searches and "archeologists" going through bibles and old testament and claim every sites as Jewish dating back some 3500 years.

---

There's a funny story Blumenthal told about Bibi Netanyahu. That during the 2009 war on Gaza, the Washington Post sent over a conservative journalist to Israel and he spoke with Bibi.

The report filed was glowing support for Israel and how Netanyahu took that journalist into his office, showed him a ring he bought in a pawn shop in Jerusalem dating back 3000 years.

On that ring is written, in Hebrew, "Netanyahu".

So of course the Jewish people have been here for at least that long.

Blumenthal said Netanyahu's grandfather was from the Ukraine or something, his name wasn't Netanyahu, that name was adopted when the grandfather moved to Israel and it mean something like "I was here".


It's funny man. Too bad it's real and it's killing a lot of people
 
Knobby22 said:
Very true.
There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then and it appears too late now.
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An interview with the Director of "the Gatekeepers" - an Oscar-nominated documentary interviewing all 6 living former head of Israel's Shin Bet - its internal security agency.

According to the Director, all six are asking that Israel stop its occupation and expansionist policies, agree to a two state solution... and they've been asking for this a long time ago.

Each time I watch an interview or a documentary, just about every expert on the subject agree that the one-state solution is long gone. New settlements, greater racist and right wing political movements, greater emphasis on the Biblical stories to justify God given land to the Jewish people... all these make it impossible to remove Jewish settlements or to share it with any other race or religion.

The Palestinian negotiator I saw recently said Abbas and the PA are willing to give up Palestine, what Chomsky said of other PA - that they're willing to give Israel the key. But Israel doesn't want the key, it doesn't want the Arabs - either in Israeli or in the WB or Gaza.

Citing 'demographic threat' against the "Jewish character" of Israel, there has been more and mora racist policies to keep Israel somewhere between 70% Jewish and 30% other.

So no acceptance of refugees from anywhere, separate laws for Jewish majority and martial law for Arab-Israelis; harsh laws to expel Arab-Israeli prisoners; strategic fencing of security wall to push Arab-Israelis into the WB; and forget about ever accepting the Palestinians in Gaza and WB into a greater Israel with one person one vote kind of democracy.


But as Chomsky said, there is a hope that if enough American and world opinions change, the US might just call up Israel and tell them to move back to the 1967 border and that's that - two states that might eventually start to have trade and commerce and slowly might see they have more in common and unite to a democratic state of Israel for all people.

There's a good chance that that will happen sooner rather than later.

I mean, Obama recently signed a $100 billion foreign aid or military aid to Israel over a 10 year period. This generosity, Chomsky said, during one of America's worst recessions.

I can imagine a lot of Americans not liking that very much if they take some interests and just youtube the topic.


 
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It doesn't justify the over the top response, but this does show how many in the West are myopic in their views of this conflict, particularly in relation to the origins of this current confrontation and the assumption that Hamas are just acting in self defence.

Hamas Admits To Kidnapping And Killing Israeli Teens

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318367/hamas-finally-admits-to-kidnapping-and-killing-israeli-teens

Saleh Arouri told a conference in Turkey on Wednesday that Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, carried out what he described as a "heroic operation" with the broader goal of sparking a new Palestinian uprising.
 

I'm very certain Hamas has done a lot of horrible, criminal acts... but come on, if you were Hamas, would you confess to this murder of innocent Israelis?

It's this act that Israel use to attack Gaza... then there's the terror tunnels, then demilitarize Hamas... but if the murder of these kids were used as the reason, why would you, as Hamas, go on international media and say yea we did it.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but to use the claim from one Hamas saying they did it, but ignoring other claims by Hamas that they didn't do it... that's cherry picking.

Israel's PM sent a tweet saying something like "Hamas is ISIS, ISIS is Hamas"... I'm waiting for another tweet saying "Hamas is Ebola, Ebola is Hamas".

When you lie too much, no one will believe you, even if you speak the truth. Israel is starting to have a lot of trouble convincing world opinions.

I mean, calling Hamas barbaric and evil for executing 18 suspected spies... and it is wrong and barbaric to have done that... but you can't expect people to agree with you and your moral high grounds when you blew up an entire building of some 40 apartments because you suspect there's a command centre in that building somewhere.
 
luutzu said:
I'm very certain Hamas has done a lot of horrible, criminal acts... but come on, if you were Hamas, would you confess to this murder of innocent Israelis?
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Confess. For heaven's sake, their charter calls for the killing of all Jews, not just those living in Israel. Did you read nothing of what was posted here by me and some others?

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but to use the claim from one Hamas saying they did it, but ignoring other claims by Hamas that they didn't do it... that's cherry picking.
Click to expand...

Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal admitted that Hamas members killed three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June, but claimed the leadership of the organization was not made aware of the details of the abduction plan in advance, in an interview published by Yahoo News on Friday

https://www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=YKP6U8KbCu3C8gerjIF4&gws_rd=ssl#q=hamas+admits+killing
 

What happened to Arafat and the peace settlement when he and his PLO removed the same call from their Charter? Did Israel make peace and settle the issue?

That was in the early 1990s, some 20 years ago.

I've watch an interview with Chomsky and others who said Hamas has agreed to the existence of Israel.

But let say Hamas want to kill all Jews and wipe Israel off the map... can they do it?

I've answered this nonsense before.


To repeat... Hamas call for the death of all Jews and of Israel. That's evil and bad and terrible. But just to be fair, what about Israel and its PM and senior ministers?

Not only have just about all of Israel's Ministers, from below and up to the PM, from all parties for the past 50 years... not only have they say that there will never be a Palestinian state, that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, that it is a created name and created people, that either the Palestinians live like dogs or get out... not just say it, but have implement policies to make it happen.

As in, not just words, but deeds.

I'm certain 100% of all Palestinians dream of doing very nasty thing to Netanyahu... does it mean they can do it?

But it's OK though, it took a brave man like Miko Peled two years to struggle with the reality of Israel's policies... i don't think you're that brave or that interested to know.
 
Gerard Henderson's recent visit this area sums up the situation for what it really is.

The reason for the retention of land on the West Bank and the Golan heights has been for security reasons...Without that land Israel becomes extremely vulnerable to attack.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nexistent-nation/story-fnkqo7i5-1227172997348

The ABC goofed again.

So it came as some surprise when ABC News Breakfast presenter Beverley O’Connor introduced a segment on the Middle East on Thursday with a reference to what she termed the “Israeli-Palestinian war”. O’Connor later referred to the “very costly and brutal conflict between Israel and Palestine that seems to have no end”.

Contrary to O’Connor’s editorialising, there is no war between Israel and Palestine. Nor has such an entity as Palestine ever existed. Jordan was in control of the area between Israel and the Jordan River between the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 and the 1967 war, which saw Israel occupy the area. In almost two decades Jordan did not establish a state of Palestine.

It is likely that the tension in the Middle East, as it affects Israel, will continue for some time. A long-term settlement seems a long way off. But this does not suggest a war between Israel and the Palestinians as depicted by O’Connor.
 

Henderson needs a dictionary.

At best the term is "annexation" and not recognised by anyone except the Israelis.

In layman's terms - "pure theft".
 
Macquack said:
Henderson needs a dictionary.

At best the term is "annexation" and not recognised by anyone except the Israelis.

In layman's terms - "pure theft".
Click to expand...

What about "liberators" Macq? I am sure that you regard the incursions of the Islamic State into Syria and Iraq as a holy war of liberation to free the citizens from the dreaded infidels. Beheadings, torture, rape and kidnappings are mere incidentals, compared to the big picture.
 

What war? It's colonisation.

Can a country really claim to be waging war against a stateless people with no army, no air force, no navy, no access to the outside world?

The only threat to Israel in the region, and threat because Israel can't just fly in and bomb it whenever they feel the itch, is Iran.

The other potential threats were Iraq and Syria - for the same reason - and now they're, well, they're a bit busy shall we say... Then of course there's another threat, for reason that it might become rich and developed and so pose a threat to Israel by being able to afford a proper defense force... that's Lebanon. But I heard that Israel bombs Lebanon's infrastructures every now and then, whenever it's built or near completion.

Just in case you think Israel's actions is to protect itself against Arabs and Muslims hate Jews... Turkey and Saudi Arabia are very close allies with Israel, or at least with the US and through the US Israel.

Religion and religious war here are just a facade. It's all just geopolitical craziness with a convenient religious/cultural story to hide behind.

-------
I've heard that without the Arabs as enemies, Israel would tore itself apart.

This lady, a Jewish who grew up in Israel and is now a Canadian peace activist... said that Israel is the most backward, most segregated, most immobile and unequal country in the world. And that's among the Jewish Israelis, not the Arab Israelis.

She was saying how beside Tel Aviv and East Jerusalem, it's all mostly undeveloped and segregated... where you have the Jews from Arab living in an area separate from the Jews from Russia, the European Jews etc. etc... and they all do not like each other very much. That it's almost impossible to rise out of the class you're born in and most Jewish Israelis are poor and always scared.

Sad but what do you expect when you engage in continuous wars and occupation; teaching your kids about purity of blood and crazy stuff like the land was given to you by God and it's OK to bring the couch to sit and watch your heroes bomb and flatten entire neighbourhood.


Anyway, heard the Palestinians are trying a new form of terrorism - diplomatic terrorism where they threaten to sue Israel for future war crimes at the Hague. Dam savages ey?
 

The real conflict is that the European nations and many others don't want a repeat of their economies being controlled by resident ghetto Jews with hidden agendas. Hitler thought he had the answer, a disgraceful abuse of power, that I'm fairly sure some Arabs would like to emulate. By providing a national boundary in a God forsaken piece of real estate the old world managed to offload the overflow not making it to New York and Washington DC.

By having the Jews away from where the real action is, the Europeans can get on hating each other along traditional lines.
 
Israel will need more territory, i.e. living space. Islamic terrorism is driving thousands of Jews out of their home country France, to resettle in Israel. It seems equitable that they acquire extra land coutesy of the local Islamists.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...social-challenge/story-e6frg71x-1227181492719
 
Saw a film last night on SBS on demand that gave an insight into what is happening in the West Bank. Also brings home just how angry and despairing the Paelstinians must feel as they watch Israel systematically confiscate their property, throw them into jail if they protest and cut up their state into a thousand pieces.

Worth a watch. Also worth considering just how much of a challenge it was to produce a movie inside the West Bank with Israeli military occupation.


http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/92129859721/Pomegranates-And-Myrrh
 
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