Israel - Palestine

[luutzu]

Why is what Israel doing to the Palestinian somehow justifiable?

 

[Julia]

I'd also like an answer to that question.

 

[noco]

Why is what Israel doing to the Palestinian somehow justifiable?

If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.

FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?

Hamas builds up their arsenal and lets fly at Israel every two years.

If Indonesia fired 2000 rockets onto Australian soil in two weeks , what do you think we Australians should do?

 

[bellenuit]

I certainly think Israel is very heavy handed in its response to the rocket fire from Gaza.

Although not trying to shift responsibility away from Israel, I certainly think what is happening would not happen were it not for the fact that many in the West, particularly those on the Left, almost completely ignore what Hamas are doing and the fact that Hamas are using them as useful idiots.

If instead of having one sided demonstrations condemning Israel, people took to the streets to condemn Hamas whenever they fire rockets at Israel from Gaza and call Hamas out for what they are, a ruthless terrorist organisation that will use its own children for its political purposes.

Hamas knows that by attacking Israel with rocket fire, Israel will have no choice but to respond forcibly and there will be large casualties on the Palestinian side. It is impossible to avoid, as Gaza is a very densely populated area and the rockets are fired from close to schools and hospitals. But Hamas wants large casualties on its own side, because they know that many in the West are so myopic in their views that they will ignore what Hamas is doing and just concentrate on and condemn what Israel does in response. This is a political victory as far as they are concerned and they see that as worthwhile even it it means death and injury to their own people, even the children.

As far as I can see, the only way to stop the atrocities is to make it politically unpalatable for Hamas to continually fire on Israel. Perhaps seeing thousands on the streets burning their flags instead of Israel's and demonstrations at Iranian embassies who is one of its main backers, would go a long way to achieving that.

(ps excuse my awful grammar above - rushing to get it done)

 

[luutzu]

If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.

FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?

Hamas builds up their arsenal and lets fly at Israel every two years.

If Indonesia fired 2000 rockets onto Australian soil in two weeks , what do you think we Australians should do?

When I was eleven years old, and this is a true story, I saw a kid a couple of years younger on a fruit tree picking these small sweet fruits.

The guy was minding his own business but I tell him to come down because I was sitting here and his dirt is all over me... so he climbed down and I saw the fruits... Seeing that he was a puny kid who listens, I demand he give me his pickings. He said no, it's his and I said look! And before i knew it, he gave me a bloodied nose and ran away.

So it depends.

Don't take this to be that I condone Hamas or violence or anti-Semitic or a lefty pacifist... but come on, last I check Australia doesn't control any aspect of Indonesian's life and liberty.

 

[Macquack]

If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.

FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?

Hamas builds up their arsenal and lets fly at Israel every two years.

If Indonesia fired 2000 rockets onto Australian soil in two weeks , what do you think we Australians should do?

It is not acceptable to kill innocent women and children in the name of retaliation.

Israel has the big stick and is using it recklessly.

Israel has adopted a unofficial policy of killing 20 Palastinians for every 1 Israeli soldier killed.

Israel is an arrogant oppressor.

If the US cut them loose, Israel would not get away with these atrocities.

 

[luutzu]

I certainly think Israel is very heavy handed in its response to the rocket fire from Gaza.

Although not trying to shift responsibility away from Israel, I certainly think what is happening would not happen were it not for the fact that many in the West, particularly those on the Left, almost completely ignore what Hamas are doing and the fact that Hamas are using them as useful idiots.

If instead of having one sided demonstrations condemning Israel, people took to the streets to condemn Hamas whenever they fire rockets at Israel from Gaza and call Hamas out for what they are, a ruthless terrorist organisation that will use its own children for its political purposes.

Hamas knows that by attacking Israel with rocket fire, Israel will have no choice but to respond forcibly and there will be large casualties on the Palestinian side. It is impossible to avoid, as Gaza is a very densely populated area and the rockets are fired from close to schools and hospitals. But Hamas wants large casualties on its own side, because they know that many in the West are so myopic in their views that they will ignore what Hamas is doing and just concentrate on and condemn what Israel does in response. This is a political victory as far as they are concerned and they see that as worthwhile even it it means death and injury to their own people, even the children.

As far as I can see, the only way to stop the atrocities is to make it politically unpalatable for Hamas to continually fire on Israel. Perhaps seeing thousands on the streets burning their flags instead of Israel's and demonstrations at Iranian embassies who is one of its main backers, would go a long way to achieving that.

(ps excuse my awful grammar above - rushing to get it done)

I think it would be a tragic mistake to think that Hamas is the problem.

My wife wasn't home so I made a mistake of watching the news with my four year old daughter... then suddenly, there's a clip of a Palestinian kid her age trapped under rubbles, reaching out to people who were trying to free her. I quickly turn it off but my daughter almost froze, then ask me why the girl was stuck and her house broken...

In all my wisdom I said because someone shoot a rocket and it fall over... anyway, don't call DOCS but the kid was close to tears and after a while said "I wouldn't like it if someone do that to my house..."

We can blame Hamas if we want to but i don't think any Palestinians need any brainwashing to fight back with whatever they can after decades of these Israeli "defenses".

Which brings us to a bigger question: Who's going to win this war?

Of course Hamas, being a weak power, must hide among the people. That's just the art of war. The question you got to ask is why the people support them - because they rise from the people. Does that then mean the people deserve it? Even those three kids playing on the beach, in broad daylight, being blown up?

I'm not sure what Israel's strategy is at all. To "mow the lawn" every couple of years?
To keep on keeping the Palestinians segregated, control its economy and development, keep it weak so it cannot properly fight back? And hope that the world will look the other way? Hope that the American public will be too busy to turn on youtube and not just the mass media on TV?

I've read and watch a fair bit of history. I know a fair bit of what happened to the Jewish people - from when the Roman put down the Jewish rebellion and disperse them; to WW2 then the Zionist fights against the British until the state of Israel was declared...

But seeing what has been happening, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, I seriously think that the Israeli gov't think that the tragedy of WW2 on their people give them the right to do whatever they want; that the people of the world feel sympathy for them because they're "God's chosen people" and not because of the horror and crime committed on them.

 

[bellenuit]

I think it would be a tragic mistake to think that Hamas is the problem.

My wife wasn't home so I made a mistake of watching the news with my four year old daughter... then suddenly, there's a clip of a Palestinian kid her age trapped under rubbles, reaching out to people who were trying to free her. I quickly turn it off but my daughter almost froze, then ask me why the girl was stuck and her house broken...

In all my wisdom I said because someone shoot a rocket and it fall over... anyway, don't call DOCS but the kid was close to tears and after a while said "I wouldn't like it if someone do that to my house..."

We can blame Hamas if we want to but i don't think any Palestinians need any brainwashing to fight back with whatever they can after decades of these Israeli "defenses".

Which brings us to a bigger question: Who's going to win this war?

Of course Hamas, being a weak power, must hide among the people. That's just the art of war. The question you got to ask is why the people support them - because they rise from the people. Does that then mean the people deserve it? Even those three kids playing on the beach, in broad daylight, being blown up?

I'm not sure what Israel's strategy is at all. To "mow the lawn" every couple of years?
To keep on keeping the Palestinians segregated, control its economy and development, keep it weak so it cannot properly fight back? And hope that the world will look the other way? Hope that the American public will be too busy to turn on youtube and not just the mass media on TV?

I've read and watch a fair bit of history. I know a fair bit of what happened to the Jewish people - from when the Roman put down the Jewish rebellion and disperse them; to WW2 then the Zionist fights against the British until the state of Israel was declared...

But seeing what has been happening, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, I seriously think that the Israeli gov't think that the tragedy of WW2 on their people give them the right to do whatever they want; that the people of the world feel sympathy for them because they're "God's chosen people" and not because of the horror and crime committed on them.

I am not suggesting Hamas is the cause of the Israel/Palestinian problem. That is something with very deep roots and I am not sure whether it ever will be or is resolvable. I also think Israel is making a resolution almost impossible by its continuing settlement of Jews on Palestinian land.

But I do think Hamas is responsible for the immediate conflict that is currently occurring and taking so many lives. I think it was a deliberate act in order to get Israel to retaliate. I think it is quite different to an armed resistance struggle and they are deliberately endangering their own people because they want high death rates so that Israel will be condemned on the international stage and Hamas can claim a political and moral victory. And as I said before, I don't think Hamas would take this action if they thought for one moment that they, rather than Israel, would be the focus of condemnation and protest.

 

[So_Cynical]

The west bank and Gaza are basically Israeli ghettos, a place for the 2nd class, non Jewish Israelis to live.

 

[Macquack]

I think it would be a tragic mistake to think that Hamas is the problem.

My wife wasn't home so I made a mistake of watching the news with my four year old daughter... then suddenly, there's a clip of a Palestinian kid her age trapped under rubbles, reaching out to people who were trying to free her. I quickly turn it off but my daughter almost froze, then ask me why the girl was stuck and her house broken...

In all my wisdom I said because someone shoot a rocket and it fall over... anyway, don't call DOCS but the kid was close to tears and after a while said "I wouldn't like it if someone do that to my house..."

We can blame Hamas if we want to but i don't think any Palestinians need any brainwashing to fight back with whatever they can after decades of these Israeli "defenses".

Which brings us to a bigger question: Who's going to win this war?

Of course Hamas, being a weak power, must hide among the people. That's just the art of war. The question you got to ask is why the people support them - because they rise from the people. Does that then mean the people deserve it? Even those three kids playing on the beach, in broad daylight, being blown up?

I'm not sure what Israel's strategy is at all. To "mow the lawn" every couple of years?
To keep on keeping the Palestinians segregated, control its economy and development, keep it weak so it cannot properly fight back? And hope that the world will look the other way? Hope that the American public will be too busy to turn on youtube and not just the mass media on TV?

I've read and watch a fair bit of history. I know a fair bit of what happened to the Jewish people - from when the Roman put down the Jewish rebellion and disperse them; to WW2 then the Zionist fights against the British until the state of Israel was declared...

But seeing what has been happening, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, I seriously think that the Israeli gov't think that the tragedy of WW2 on their people give them the right to do whatever they want; that the people of the world feel sympathy for them because they're "God's chosen people" and not because of the horror and crime committed on them.

Brilliant post.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Israel - Palestinew

I cannot understand how there is so much sympathy for Hamas, an organisation whose aim is to remove or kill every Jew from Israel/Palestine.

The Arabs need to look at a map of the area.

Israel takes up a tiny area geographically.

Arabs need to man up and make peace with Israel.

This conflict will persist otherwise.

gg

 

[Macquack]

The west bank and Gaza are basically Israeli ghettos, a place for the 2nd class, non Jewish Israelis to live.

I don't think Palestinians would like to be called "non Jewish Israelis"!

It is all Palestine to the Palestinians.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't know who is at fault in Gaza, I just think we should keep out of it.

The US has supplied Israel with a lot of arms. I don't generally hold with giving people weapons to settle disputes but Israel is virtually isolated in the area when it comes to allies. Israel has probably turned these weapons from defensive to offensive and I think Israel is over armed. This doesn't make for any desire to concilliate, it just gives them more power to use weapons to enforce a position.

John Kerry expressed his displeasure with Israel in an unguarded moment where he didn't mean to say something on camera. If the US wants a solution in Gaza, then the first step is not to supply them with any more weapons. Try and get them into a position where they have to negotiate a resolution in the UN.

 

[So_Cynical]

I don't think Palestinians would like to be called "non Jewish Israelis"!

It is all Palestine to the Palestinians.

Sure but it is all Israel at the moment..the Israeli defence force is Killing Israeli citizens in Israel, and some how this is considered acceptable or at least justifiable...the Jewish part of Israel protecting its self from the non Jewish part of Israel.

All quite bizarre.

 

[Macquack]

Sure but it is all Israel at the moment..the Israeli defence force is Killing Israeli citizens in Israel, and some how this is considered acceptable or at least justifiable...the Jewish part of Israel protecting its self from the non Jewish part of Israel.

All quite bizarre.

Good point.

 

[DB008]

While Israel stays as a proxy for the USA, nothing will happen.

However, Hammas does have a case to answer for. How tunnels has Israel found?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

In this conversation it seems that the combined Arab ideal, to anhillate the Jewish nation, Israel , has been lost in the comments.

For Israel, this is an existential fight.

The corollary of defeat is Shoah.

gg

 

[Macquack]

In this conversation it seems that the combined Arab ideal, to anhillate the Jewish nation, Israel , has been lost in the comments.

For Israel, this is an existential fight.

The corollary of defeat is Shoah.

gg

Have a look at DB008's post, Israel is doing alright for itself.

 

[Julia]

I don't know who is at fault in Gaza, I just think we should keep out of it.

The US has supplied Israel with a lot of arms. I don't generally hold with giving people weapons to settle disputes but Israel is virtually isolated in the area when it comes to allies. Israel has probably turned these weapons from defensive to offensive and I think Israel is over armed. This doesn't make for any desire to concilliate, it just gives them more power to use weapons to enforce a position.

John Kerry expressed his displeasure with Israel in an unguarded moment where he didn't mean to say something on camera. If the US wants a solution in Gaza, then the first step is not to supply them with any more weapons. Try and get them into a position where they have to negotiate a resolution in the UN.

+1.
Israel is even bombing refugee shelters and hospitals. How can that be justified?
Thanks for illustration, DB.

 

[luutzu]

In this conversation it seems that the combined Arab ideal, to anhillate the Jewish nation, Israel , has been lost in the comments.

For Israel, this is an existential fight.

The corollary of defeat is Shoah.

gg

Israel has nukes, the world's most advanced weaponry... who will or can get rid of them?