Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[wayneL]

We can’t get rid of Islam, just as we can’t get rid of Christianity, all we can do is hope that the trend continues and religions become less and less serious in their followers minds.

Attacking a religion doesn’t help, religions thrive on persecution, ISIS them selves said they love it when westerners target moderate Muslims, and want to ban the burqa etc, it makes it easier for isis to recruit a young male if he crew up feeling like an outcast and saw his parents snubbed by the rest of society.

There is no evidence that Islam is becoming more secular. The evidence to the contrary is actual overwhelming, Islam is becoming far more Fundamentalist in the last half century or so.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is no evidence that Islam is becoming more secular. The evidence to the contrary is actual overwhelming, Islam is becoming far more Fundamentalist in the last half century or so.

In Islamic countries that's true, in non Islamic countries they are becoming slightly more radical and the import of "refugees" from Islamic countries has allowed hard liners in here to spread the poison to the moderates.

 

[Sdajii]

Has anyone on this forum really read the Koran or the Bible?If so -why would you do it?

Yes. If you want to have a valid opinion on anything you need to inform yourself. It is shameful that so many people feel that they deserve not only to have an opinion but to promote that opinion when they are uninformed.

Religion is a very significant part of the world. The two largest religions in the world today are Christianity and Islam. The most powerful empire the world has ever seen has been based in Christianity and the fastest growing religion which is set to overtake it is Islam.

Reading the bible and Koran takes well under 100 hours. The Koran is only about 15 hours - if you read just 30 minutes per day it wouldn't take a month. If you commute to school or work by public transport you could probably do it in under a month simply by doing it instead of staring out the window at the same old scenery. Many people read pointless novels or spend hours per day on clickbait. Literally most people who defend Islam on social media have spent more time defending Islam on social media than the time it would have taken to read to Koran, but they haven't bothered to read the Koran, and if they did, most wouldn't defend it, because it is absolutely insidiously evil. But, people would literally prefer to argue their opinion rather than to actually invest time in forming an opinion with any worth.

Same deal with politics and many other topics.

 

[Value Collector]

There is no evidence that Islam is becoming more secular. The evidence to the contrary is actual overwhelming, Islam is becoming far more Fundamentalist in the last half century or so.

I think you are just witnessing the polarization that is bound to happen as religions feel like they are losing grip.

The important thing is to not give those that are doubling down and becoming more polarized more ammunition.

Like anything the media will show you the noisy few, and ignore the moderates busy doing gall bladder surgery, concreting or driving uber.

 

[chiff]

Yes. If you want to have a valid opinion on anything you need to inform yourself. It is shameful that so many people feel that they deserve not only to have an opinion but to promote that opinion when they are uninformed.

Religion is a very significant part of the world. The two largest religions in the world today are Christianity and Islam. The most powerful empire the world has ever seen has been based in Christianity and the fastest growing religion which is set to overtake it is Islam.

Reading the bible and Koran takes well under 100 hours. The Koran is only about 15 hours - if you read just 30 minutes per day it wouldn't take a month. If you commute to school or work by public transport you could probably do it in under a month simply by doing it instead of staring out the window at the same old scenery. Many people read pointless novels or spend hours per day on clickbait. Literally most people who defend Islam on social media have spent more time defending Islam on social media than the time it would have taken to read to Koran, but they haven't bothered to read the Koran, and if they did, most wouldn't defend it, because it is absolutely insidiously evil. But, people would literally prefer to argue their opinion rather than to actually invest time in forming an opinion with any worth.

Same deal with politics and many other topics.

Well you are a better man than me Gungadin....I have trouble with the five pillars of Islam and the Ten Commandments. However I did read Grimms Fairy tales when I was young -most of it anyway-scared the pants off me.Then came the Father Son and the Holy Ghost,aka ,Daddio Laddio and Spookio.Now that made me fear for my mortal soul?

 

[qldfrog]

I

Has anyone on this forum really read the Koran or the Bible?If so -why would you do it?

I did when in my 20s where the good words of the media were describing a muslim society so different from my daily experience among the immigrants of France or my travels to north africa
I read, i understood the BS being brainwashed to both muslims via the koran, and to native Europeans to ensure they do not fight their capitulation
Islam is "evil" by its own , from its birth and thru its aim of total expansion
Reading it also enables you to know more than the parrots repeating the pc nonsense.
I also read the bible and while the first book is "interesting".it clearly has no conquering aim vs the koran, and the new testament is so much kinder.
Anyway not a believer so...

 

[bellenuit]

Check it out.

What happened when I met my Islamophobic troll
Illustration: Guardian Design/Christophe Gowans
In 2017, I started getting regular messages from an anonymous Twitter user telling me my religion was ‘evil’. Eventually I responded – and he agreed to meet face to face. By Hussein Kesvani

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/may/23/what-happened-when-i-met-my-islamophobic-troll

I expected this to be a description of when he finally met up with the so called "Islamophobic" troll and how he was able to show him the error of his ways. But there wasn't one refutation that I could see, except for throwing doubt on the accuracy of one posting by the troll that referred to someone as an Imam who actually wasn't.

Mike had taken the video from a Channel 4 documentary about countering fringe extremists online and reposted it with the title “UK Imam says Sharia will take over Britain by force”, despite the fact that Abu Haleema wasn’t an imam.

Of course many of the people who post on Islam or Muslims are often anti-Muslim and may be aligned with or get exaggerated and even wrongly provocative information from right wing sites and right wing personalities. But as has been explained many times, conflating hatred of Muslims with genuine concern about Islam is something that has been promoted by the left and by Islamic extremists in order to shut down debate about the latter. The use of the term Islamophobic is one such deliberate conflation of the two and the Guardian is a prime example of a newspaper that continuously uses such a term in relation to both right wing nut cases who hate Muslims or moderate Muslims or ex-Muslims who expose truthfully what is wrong with Islam, particularly political Islam. Even this article throws Ayaan Hirsi Ali into the mix with the comment "or the prominent critic of Islam Ayaan Hirsi Ali". I have yet to see any anti-Muslim rhetoric from Islam Ayaan Hirsi Ali but she sure has a lot to say about the evils of Islam, being an ex-Muslim who has suffered under Islam and constantly requires protection from Islamic radicals.

When has the Guardian stood behind the women protesters in Iran who are imprisoned and tortured for removing the hijab or is this nothing to do with Islam. Or the Pakistani Christian who was sentenced to death for blasphemy and only through intervention by the west managed to get out of her hell hole existence and migrate to Canada. Or the Egyptian atheist that Sam Harris (another Islamophobe according to TG) helped to escape after being threatened by death. Have these nothing to do with Islam and is criticism of such on a par with Muslim hatred. Yes they have reported on these, but do they not see the common factor to all these stories.

 

[bellenuit]

We need to be able to criticise Islam – any definition of Islamophobia must recognise that

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/islamophobia-definition-parkfield-school-no-outsiders/

Accusations of Islamophobia are already used cynically to block investigators and human rights advocates. With this definition, their work could become unbearable and unsustainable. A Muslim youth worker who is helping me with some research tells me he is very worried that some supporters of the Islamophobia definition “just want to take back control. To stop the police and Government looking into forced marriages, Islamicist mosques and extremism, and the way young Muslims are controlled.

 

[joeno]

Some observations as someone who travels a lot:

The "islamic world" is diverse. It's not this one thing you either tolerate or despise. The sunni Muslims don't even consider Shiites fellow Muslims. And vice versa. Arabic muslims consider non-Arabic muslims to be "not the real Muslims". Berber-Arabic Muslims consider Saudis to be sexist pigs.

Pakistani Muslims for example, value their relations with Secular China more than say Turkish Muslims. Iran is deeply anti-Israel while Saudi's are pro Israel and anti-Iran.

Most of the sexism and "shitty people" found in Islam source from poor individuals with low education. The rich saudi asshole types are actually paper tigers in reality. Lebanese australians who have a bad reputation only because the refugees that migrated from Lebanon were the usually the poorest and not from the upper class of Lebanese society. Lebanon if you go there is an extremely tolerant place.

What I find amusing are people from western society who cannot tell the difference between good and bad. So they will either virtue signal and say how all Muslims are great and some Muslim guy who thinks women should be held as slaves is a decent bloke. Or they'll complain that all Muslims are bad terrorists. It's not so black and white.

tl;dr it's not Islam that's the problem. It more related to nationality and poverty

 

[Sdajii]

Some observations as someone who travels a lot:

The "islamic world" is diverse. It's not this one thing you either tolerate or despise. The sunni Muslims don't even consider Shiites fellow Muslims. And vice versa. Arabic muslims consider non-Arabic muslims to be "not the real Muslims". Berber-Arabic Muslims consider Saudis to be sexist pigs.

When you say it's diverse, you're mostly talking about which other group each Muslim group hates the most. This means there's a common thread... that they all have enemies they hate. Violence and hatred is a very consistent theme across the Muslim world, which is not surprising when the religion commands them to literally exterminate their enemies, and even the slightest difference of opinion of the religion is punishable by death, which is why Muslims are often the biggest targets of Muslims. A difference of opinion of who to exterminate first isn't exactly a wonderful spectrum of diversity. Obviously many Muslim countries are quite safe to walk around in, but they still have an active agenda of exterminating people, and you don't want to put yourself in the firing line, and even in the safe countries, if you fail to walk on egg shells it's easy to end up dead. For example, in most of the safe Muslim countries, openly admitting you are gay is a death sentence. Openly saying you disagree that women are worth less than men is a death sentence. If you are Muslim, even if you didn't become one by choice (and the vast majority of Muslims didn't choose it), the reality for most of them in most countries, including the safe ones, is that they'll be killed by the government, or imprisoned if they're lucky. You can find exceptions but this is literally the case in the majority of countries and circumstances. So yes, if you watch what you say and are polite these places are pleasant and safe, but it's an awkward and strange sort of safety.

There are literally few exceptions to the rule that Muslim countries are more violent. Comparing Muslims living with any other religion (or just Muslims living with Muslims) you very consistently see much higher levels of conflict than with any other two religions coexisting, or with populations made up of primarily one non Islam religion.

Pakistani Muslims for example, value their relations with Secular China more than say Turkish Muslims. Iran is deeply anti-Israel while Saudi's are pro Israel and anti-Iran.

Yes, indeed, you will find many cases where Islamic countries hate other Islamic countries more than certain non Islamic countries. Some are more pragmatic than others.

Most of the sexism and "shitty people" found in Islam source from poor individuals with low education.

It's not an exaggeration to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are sexist. I wouldn't label them all 'shitty people' but they are undeniably sexist, even if they smile and act pleasantly. Islam is one of the most sexist of all religions and the most sexist of all the major religions. It bluntly says a woman's value is half of a man's and that men have complete control over women. Women must be subservient and if they step out of line they should be disciplined (beaten or kept isolated or whatever the man deems appropriate). The degree of sexism varies but the vast majority of Muslims are sexist and don't see men and women as equal.

What I find amusing are people from western society who cannot tell the difference between good and bad. So they will either virtue signal and say how all Muslims are great and some Muslim guy who thinks women should be held as slaves is a decent bloke. Or they'll complain that all Muslims are bad terrorists. It's not so black and white.

There are certainly a lot of people in the first category, but not so many in the second. Literally no one in this thread has said anything at all like it (correct me if I'm wrong and missed someone saying such a thing). Only the bottom rung of bogan society has people who say things like 'all Muslims are terrorists', and those people aren't especially common. Of course, yes, those few who exist need to learn more, just as those who are at the opposite extreme do, but one is far more common than the other.

tl;dr it's not Islam that's the problem. It more related to nationality and poverty

This is absolutely positively not true, and the evidence is completely overwhelming. Literally every single Islamic country was previously populated by people who had a more peaceful religion and culture. Literally. Every. Single. One. Look at the overall pattern of what happens, the conversion of non Islamic countries to Islamic countries has been going on for well over a thousand years and the pattern is remarkably consistent. The result is consistently more violent, and fairly consistently poverty increases (this biproduct of increased violence etc is fairly predictable). With such a clear correlation and such an obvious cause and effect relationship it's remarkable that someone who seems quite level headed, as you do, would miss this. Look at the correlation between Islam and conflict in the middle east, Asia and Africa (and look at the examples we are seeing of early stage conversion in Europe, which are much like the early stages were in Africa, Asia and the Middle East). The conversion consistently involves the use of terrorism, which isn't particularly surprising since the Koran literally commands members to use terrorism as a tool for conversion of populations, and it's a strategy which has been successfully employed by Islam since the very founder lead people to use it.

 

[SirRumpole]

In Islamic countries that's true, in non Islamic countries they are becoming slightly more radical and the import of "refugees" from Islamic countries has allowed hard liners in here to spread the poison to the moderates.

Is someone still reading this !

I'm surprised the thread hasn't been deleted.

 

[qldfrog]

While we focus on the coronavirus, the green plague is moving on:
Last sunday, a knife attacker was killed by police after kniffing a tourist in the street out if the blue.
From what i know, the attacker was an afghan refugee.
Not exactly front news isn't it???
Of course, blamed on a mental condition..called a religion by me..
Sleep well australia, all is good
And yesterday's ABC front page was stating how worried the asio was of far right terrorism possibility...
They worry more about what may happen than what does happen..

 

[SirRumpole]

Interesting comment by Dutton that Islamic terrorism is "Left Wing" terrorism ?

Any thoughts on that ?

 

[bellenuit]

Interesting comment by Dutton that Islamic terrorism is "Left Wing" terrorism ?

I think labelling it Left or Right would be wrong. It is religious extremism that exhibits traits from both the Left and the Right.

You could call the suppression of homosexuality, womens' rights and freedom of religion (particularly no religion) as akin to what many extreme Right organisations also espound though perhaps not as vehemently. Then again, when it comes to these issues being perpetuated in the name of Islam, the far Left and Feminism are completely silent and it is the moderate Right and moderate Left that is willing the call Islam out. The far Left just shouts Islamaphobia when such issues are raised.

 

[SirRumpole]

I've always thought of Far Right extremism as revolving around the thoughts and teachings of a charismatic individual, whether that be the Fuhrer or a religious leader allegedly espousing the word of an an Almighty Being. Religious terrorism would fall into this category I believe.

To find examples of really full on Left Wing terrorism you would have to go back to the Bader Meinhoff group in Germany, Red Brigades in Italy or Symbionese Liberation Army in the US, which all faded away in the 1970's.

 

[Macquack]

Interesting comment by Dutton that Islamic terrorism is "Left Wing" terrorism ?

Any thoughts on that ?

Yes, confirms that Dutton is a dick head..

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, confirms that Dutton is a dick head..

Dutton is on the Right, so he obviously felt he had to attack the Left, but he mucked it up.

 

[bellenuit]

I've always thought of Far Right extremism as revolving around the thoughts and teachings of a charismatic individual, whether that be the Fuhrer or ....

Mao and Lenin would also fall into that category, but were not labelled as far left extremists as such, yet millions died under their rule. But IMO that is mainly because the Left only recognises extremism when it comes from the Right.

Remember in Russia when the Communist Party diehards opposed Yeltsin's and Gorbachov's liberalisation. These diehards, which up until then were seen as the hard Left, suddenly got labelled the hard Right.

That's why I think using the word Right or Left is not something fixed, but very much dependent on ones point of view.

 

[SirRumpole]

Mao and Lenin would also fall into that category, but were not labelled as far left extremists as such, yet millions died under their rule. But IMO that is mainly because the Left only recognises extremism when it comes from the Right.

Remember in Russia when the Communist Party diehards opposed Yeltsin's and Gorbachov's liberalisation. These diehards, which up until then were seen as the hard Left, suddenly got labelled the hard Right.

That's why I think using the word Right or Left is not something fixed, but very much dependent on ones point of view.

I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge Mao and Lenin and probably Putin as terrorists although they set themselves up as exalted and infallibe leaders so maybe that makes them Right Wing dictators ?

But anyway the lines are pretty blurred and a dictator is a dictator whether Left or Right.

 

[wayneL]

Dutton is on the Right, so he obviously felt he had to attack the Left, but he mucked it up.

The extreme left coddles Islam for whatever reason, which may be the basis of his remarks.

But I wouldn't classify Islam itself as either left or right. It doesn't really fit with in our Western political paradigm as such.