Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[Julia]

The analogy is too loose for me.
The tribes are the 'muslims' and the 'infidels' yes? And your point is that both tribes may celebrate to one degree or another, the perceived 'just' punishment of the other. On that basis you equate them. Then you give Collingwood football club as an example of a non religious 'tribe' that behaves aggressively towards other non religious tribes ie Carlton and this demonstrates therefore that we are all tribes and none can hold any moral superiority over the other. Is this what you are saying here?

I will grant the analogy when an group of Collingwood or Carlton players commit mass murder in the name of their club code of ethics, or out of offence created by a newspaper cartoonist. I will further grant the analogy when the majority of the remaining Club supporters are silent or passively ( or overtly) condone the murders.

In my opinion a tribe is not a tribe is not a tribe. Key differences are in the doctrine laid out in the magic books and the behaviours and rationales for those behaviours that can only be fully understood on that basis.

On a different level I do get what you are meaning here but the analogy is not a good one.

My response exactly. How you can compare football club rivalry with mass murder is beyond me.

IMHO, it confirms my long-held conviction that all three Religions of the Book are comparable in the potential effects on their victims and followers.
Puritan forms of Islam, Christianity, Judaism are all carrying the seed of evil:

Are they all demonstrating equal levels of violence toward those who fail to adhere to their beliefs?
viz in particular the slaying of all in Syria who refused to convert, and even the subsequent killing of those who did convert.

I find it quite telling that the Taliban is murdering school children, that wide sections of US "Christians" insist on Creationism being taught instead of Science.

Of course creationism is garbage and absolutely should not be taught to any children, but to equate it with the killing, not to mention the kidnapping for the sexual slave trade, of many Christian children is just not reasonable.

The better educated modern-day members of either faith are, the greater their enlightenment and tolerance of others they become.

Agree absolutely, but the full and complete secular education of all people, sufficient to wipe out irrational beliefs in gods, prophets or whatever, isn't going to happen quickly, if ever.

 

[pixel]

Are they all demonstrating equal levels of violence toward those who fail to adhere to their beliefs?
viz in particular the slaying of all in Syria who refused to convert, and even the subsequent killing of those who did convert.

Of course creationism is garbage and absolutely should not be taught to any children, but to equate it with the killing, not to mention the kidnapping for the sexual slave trade, of many Christian children is just not reasonable.

Agree absolutely, but the full and complete secular education of all people, sufficient to wipe out irrational beliefs in gods, prophets or whatever, isn't going to happen quickly, if ever.

Julia, in reply to your criticism here and on my historical quotes:

I cannot recall where I said they were "equal", I said the potential for evil lies in each puritan belief in one's own supremacy. I am sure that same thought applies to tribalism in the AFL.
Some tribes may have become more civilised than others, but the veneer on top of Caveman mentality is globally still very thin. In terms of human evolution, a few 100 or even 1000 years don't give Christians or Jews the right to feel smug about their being "more advanced" than the current crop of radicalised "evil" Islamists.

And, sadly, you are right about mankind's inability to agree on a rational education. If even our States can't agree on a common syllabus, the World has a snowball's chance in a globally warmed climate.

Just my .

 

[UMike]

Is Islam inherently evil????

Yes going on yesterdays events.

Bomb strapped to girl 'about 10 years old' kills 19 in Nigeria

Should be massive outrage against this.
Would be if it was in a westernised country.
Waiting for the Islamic denunciations.

 

[Julia]

I cannot recall where I said they were "equal",

pixel, I didn't say you did. I raised the question. For me your statement just further demonstrates the potential evil of all religion.

I said the potential for evil lies in each puritan belief in one's own supremacy. I am sure that same thought applies to tribalism in the AFL.
Some tribes may have become more civilised than others, but the veneer on top of Caveman mentality is globally still very thin. In terms of human evolution, a few 100 or even 1000 years don't give Christians or Jews the right to feel smug about their being "more advanced" than the current crop of radicalised "evil" Islamists.

I don't know about that. Some people consider all human beings have absolute potential for evil. That sounds emotive and exaggerated to me.

And I'm not sure I'd use the descriptor "smug" about anyone, be it atheists, Christians, Jews, whatever, at this time. What I feel and what I observe in others is anger, bewilderment that people whose religion is taken with such utter uncritical acceptance in the so called word of some so called prophet can assume that gives them the right to take the lives of people who do not share that belief.

I'm not setting out to be argumentative, just expressing my own anxiety that - in the West's polite desire to be all inclusive, accepting of all faiths, etc., we are hastening our own downfall.

 

[SirRumpole]

I'm not setting out to be argumentative, just expressing my own anxiety that - in the West's polite desire to be all inclusive, accepting of all faiths, etc., we are hastening our own downfall.

A fair enough feeling to have, but there has to be some thought given to a strategy to avoid our "downfall" beyond just slaughtering ISIS fighters in Syria or whatever.

So maybe there has to be a verbal attack on the tenants of religion in general by our policy makers, but it comes back to votes. No politicians are going to attack the beliefs of people who vote for them. If you attack the tenants of Islam, then you also attack the tenants of Christianity and Judaism by implication.

Maybe there is room for an "anti religion" political party. If it was composed of reasonable people then I would vote for them, but unless they are proposing to make religion illegal then there is not much difference to any other party, other than on issues where religion interferes like euthanasia, gay marriage, abortion etc.

So I come back to my original assertion that the best way to stop terrorism is not by trying to destroy religion, but by dividing the moderates from the extremists, and lets face it, the extremists are in the minority because they are mentally cracked. No sane person would do what they are doing, and I very much doubt if any reasonable person would want to associate with the extremist brand of thinking.

So please don't just complain about the situation without offering alternatives. There is no point.

 

[Calliope]

So I come back to my original assertion that the best way to stop terrorism is not by trying to destroy religion, but by dividing the moderates from the extremists, and lets face it, the extremists are in the minority because they are mentally cracked. No sane person would do what they are doing, and I very much doubt if any reasonable person would want to associate with the extremist brand of thinking

I know a good way to separate them You just put a sign up at the Mosque entrance saying;.

Moderate Muslims Left...Radical Moslems Right

Unless Rumpy knows a better way.

 

[Julia]

So please don't just complain about the situation without offering alternatives. There is no point.

Rumpole, since when do you have the right to demand that people may not post their concerns without offering solutions?

I think few people have the experience, training and expertise to know exactly how what we're presently experiencing can be effectively dealt with. If they did, they're hardly likely to be found on a stock forum rather than in some international relations position.

And btw, you might have meant "tenet", rather than 'tenant'

'tenet': a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.
"the tenets of classical liberalism"

 

[Bintang]

Rumpole, since when do you have the right to demand that people may not post their concerns without offering solutions?

I think few people have the experience, training and expertise to know exactly how what we're presently experiencing can be effectively dealt with. If they did, they're hardly likely to be found on a stock forum rather than in some international relations position.

There might also be some people on this forum who do have solutions to offer but if they dared to put details of their ideas forward they will get castigated. That's because so many people are unwilling to face the reality that we are confronted by a ruthless determined enemy who wants to destroy us and will exploit all our weaknesses. The only effective solutions are unpleasant and controversial and will get rejected much as the pacifist sympathisers of the 1930's refused to allow Britain to re-arm itself.

 

[SirRumpole]

Rumpole, since when do you have the right to demand that people may not post their concerns without offering solutions?

OK, Ill back off on that. I just thought that as there was criticism of people "whining" about budget measures without offering alternatives the same may apply to this topic.

I think few people have the experience, training and expertise to know exactly how what we're presently experiencing can be effectively dealt with. If they did, they're hardly likely to be found on a stock forum rather than in some international relations position.

The point of view of an expert, ex AFP commissioner Mick Keelty was put forward and dismissed, so that appeared to me as though some alternative expert knowledge was being exhibited.

And btw, you might have meant "tenet", rather than 'tenant'

'tenet': a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.
"the tenets of classical liberalism"

Yes, I did, and I stand corrected.

There might also be some people on this forum who do have solutions to offer but if they dared to put details of their ideas forward they will get castigated. That's because so many people are unwilling to face the reality that we are confronted by a ruthless determined enemy who wants to destroy us and will exploit all our weaknesses. The only effective solutions are unpleasant and controversial and will get rejected much as the pacifist sympathisers of the 1930's refused to allow Britain to re-arm itself.

No one knows who you are, so go for it if you aren't afraid of a debate. How about greater use of sedition laws against Islamic leaders who recruit ISIL fighters ? I would agree with that, anyone else ?

 

[Bintang]

I know a good way to separate them You just put a sign up at the Mosque entrance saying;.

Moderate Muslims Left...Radical Moslems Right

Unless Rumpy knows a better way.

Calliope, you have me confused. How about Moderate Moslems and Radical Muslims?
Which way should they go?

 

[Bintang]

No one knows who you are …..

Are you really, really sure about this? Edward Snowden might disagree with you.

How about greater use of sedition laws against Islamic leaders who recruit ISIL fighters ? I would agree with that, anyone else ?

I second that.
And as posted on the "West has lost its freedom of speech thread" I advocate World War 2 style internment camps.

 

[Julia]

The point of view of an expert, ex AFP commissioner Mick Keelty was put forward and dismissed, so that appeared to me as though some alternative expert knowledge was being exhibited.

Let's just be accurate here: what was rejected was the relevance of anything said five years ago, given how much has changed since then.
That is quite different from specifically rejecting 'a solution' if indeed that is what was then offered.

 

[galumay]

Solutions to the predicament we find ourselves in will be difficult to implement, firstly there is a general lack of understanding of the factors that drive the extremism, a lack of if understanding that Western Civilisation initiated terrorism with the Christian Crusades, the first recorded instances of civilians being used as pawns in the theatre of religious warfare. We started this deadly game, and until we accept that fact and the impact it has on others then we are doomed to be victims of our history.

Secondly we, as Western 'Christian' nations have continued to wage terrorism at unprecedented levels, the carpet bombing of Dresden (civilians the specific target.), Hiroshima and Nagasaki, (the single greatest acts of terrorism ever), napalming of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese, (terrorism on a new scale of depravity). The illegal invasion of Iraq, (now conceded by Western Governments.) All of these events add to the not unreasonable belief that "anything goes" in the name of your religion/culture/politics, regardless of the damage to innocents and civilians.

I have no idea what the solution is, but until we understand the very large part 'we' as Western Christian cultures have played in creating the current situation we have no hope of solving it.

Unfortunately racism and xenophobia in countries like Australia actually play into the extremists hands, there are about 2 billion Moslims in the world, and most of them dont support the extremist loonies, but every time we respond with racism or xenophobia the numbers supporting the extremists will increase.

The response of Australians to the seige in Martin Place, with the #ridewithme concept is the better way to disarm the exremists. (even thought the Martin Place siege was not terrorism anyway, just the act of a deranged criminal.)

Ultimately all acts of terror can be drawn back to a belief in religious or cultural superiority, somehow we need to look inside ourselves and see the terrible damage that is wrought as a consequence, and consider how we might address it. The belief in fictional creative beings is responsible for more misery, death, torture, and harm than anything else on this planet.

 

[Bill M]

^^^Good post galumay, isn't that that the truth?^^^

 

[pixel]

Solutions to the predicament we find ourselves in will be difficult to implement, firstly there is a general lack of understanding of the factors that drive the extremism, a lack of if understanding that Western Civilisation initiated terrorism with the Christian Crusades, the first recorded instances of civilians being used as pawns in the theatre of religious warfare. We started this deadly game, and until we accept that fact and the impact it has on others then we are doomed to be victims of our history.

Secondly we, as Western 'Christian' nations have continued to wage terrorism at unprecedented levels, the carpet bombing of Dresden (civilians the specific target.), Hiroshima and Nagasaki, (the single greatest acts of terrorism ever), napalming of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese, (terrorism on a new scale of depravity). The illegal invasion of Iraq, (now conceded by Western Governments.) All of these events add to the not unreasonable belief that "anything goes" in the name of your religion/culture/politics, regardless of the damage to innocents and civilians.

I have no idea what the solution is, but until we understand the very large part 'we' as Western Christian cultures have played in creating the current situation we have no hope of solving it.

Unfortunately racism and xenophobia in countries like Australia actually play into the extremists hands, there are about 2 billion Moslims in the world, and most of them dont support the extremist loonies, but every time we respond with racism or xenophobia the numbers supporting the extremists will increase.

The response of Australians to the seige in Martin Place, with the #ridewithme concept is the better way to disarm the exremists. (even thought the Martin Place siege was not terrorism anyway, just the act of a deranged criminal.)

Ultimately all acts of terror can be drawn back to a belief in religious or cultural superiority, somehow we need to look inside ourselves and see the terrible damage that is wrought as a consequence, and consider how we might address it. The belief in fictional creative beings is responsible for more misery, death, torture, and harm than anything else on this planet.

+1, galumay
The only thing I would add is ... belief in religious, cultural, or imperial superiority.
The reason: Not all invasions and wars of aggression have their roots in religion or culture; religion and national pride are often used as a pretext to rally the troops.
The problem is however, not many people, least of all politicians, are interested in historic truth because it could lead to the troops joining dots and drawing their own rational conclusions. Which makes it that much harder to lead them to the slaughter for the sake of greater corporate profits.

 

[galumay]

+1, galumay
The only thing I would add is ... belief in religious, cultural, or imperial superiority.
\

Good point, well made.

 

[Calliope]

^^^Good post galumay, isn't that that the truth?^^^

Which part of galumay's head-in-the-sand excuses for Islamic terrorism did you consider to be the truth? Not this bit surely?

Unfortunately racism and xenophobia in countries like Australia actually play into the extremists hands, there are about 2 billion Moslims in the world, and most of them dont support the extremist loonies, but every time we respond with racism or xenophobia the numbers supporting the extremists will increase.

The response of Australians to the seige in Martin Place, with the #ridewithme concept is the better way to disarm the exremists. (even thought the Martin Place siege was not terrorism anyway, just the act of a deranged criminal)

To think that the "ridewithme" concept will "disarm the exremists" is utter nonsense. and yet you accept it as a truth.

He blames Western Christian cultures for setting a precedent for Islamic barbarity...no mention of the millions who died at the hands of the supreme terrorists Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc. Does he blame Western Culture fot their barbarities too?

 

[>Apocalypto<]

I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.

I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.

I do not have much truck with religion.

The unpredictability of evil such as ISIS and the terrorist attacks in Canada makes me wonder.

Is Islam evil?

gg

No, peoples interpretation is evil not religion it's self.

 

[galumay]

To think that the "ridewithme" concept will "disarm the exremists" is utter nonsense. and yet you accept it as a truth.

I was suggesting it would be more effective than racism and xenophobia.

He blames Western Christian cultures for setting a precedent for Islamic barbarity...no mention of the millions who died at the hands of the supreme terrorists Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc. Does he blame Western Culture fot their barbarities too?

I make the point that 'we' started it, we can hardly be surprised that other cultures and religions have adopted it as a strategy. I agree there have been other acts of terror carried out by different religions and cultures (and imperialists), it doesnt help to understand what we face currently if we dismiss the role we have played in its genesis.

We have no grounds for moral superiority here.

 

[Calliope]

I was suggesting it would be more effective than racism and xenophobia

In other words...useless.

I make the point that 'we' started it, we can hardly be surprised that other cultures and religions have adopted it as a strategy. I agree there have been other acts of terror carried out by different religions and cultures (and imperialists), it doesnt help to understand what we face currently if we dismiss the role we have played in its genesis.

And what "genesis role" did "we" play in the barbarity of imperialist Genghis Khan who is reputed to have killed 40 million people? Did he adopt our Western Cultures "strategy"?

We have no grounds for moral superiority here.

No. You have assumed that for the Islamists.