Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[SirRumpole]

Every country will have some poor people. Why have you picked out Estonia? It's one of the most forward thinking, flourishing European countries, particularly given its fraught history with Russian invasion etc.

First country that came to mind. I meant we don't hear much foreign news in general unless it affects us, or unless we happen to get a mention in the foreign press for whatever reason.

 

[Julia]

The ABC usually chooses to not even report what is happening in our nearest neighbour, New Zealand.
A rare item on this evening's "PM" gives an interesting analysis about why NZ has been able to so successfully introduce the very reforms our government is trying to get up here.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4140716.htm

It seems that, similarly to the way John Howard took the GST to an election, John Key did the same with his welfare and other economic reforms, got the electorate behind him and the country has gone from strength to strength as a result.

 

[SirRumpole]

The ABC usually chooses to not even report what is happening in our nearest neighbour, New Zealand.
A rare item on this evening's "PM" gives an interesting analysis about why NZ has been able to so successfully introduce the very reforms our government is trying to get up here.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4140716.htm

It seems that, similarly to the way John Howard took the GST to an election, John Key did the same with his welfare and other economic reforms, got the electorate behind him and the country has gone from strength to strength as a result.

Reply in "The Abbott government" thread

 

[dutchie]

Islam, the religion of peace...

Pakistan school attack: At least 141 people killed, including 132 children, in Taliban siege in Peshawar

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-16/taliban-gunmen-attack-military-run-school-in-peshawar/5971484


I wonder if those 132 kids think that?

Sheesh, I must be racist because I think this is abhorrent.

 

[SirRumpole]

Islam, the religion of peace...

Pakistan school attack: At least 141 people killed, including 132 children, in Taliban siege in Peshawar

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-16/taliban-gunmen-attack-military-run-school-in-peshawar/5971484


I wonder if those 132 kids think that?

Sheesh, I must be racist because I think this is abhorrent.

It's abhorrent allright, and indicates that some Muslims haven't yet emerged from medieval times into the real world of today.

No doubt there are similar Christian sects that mainly keep to themselves and don't try and enforce their views on others.

It's going to take a while to eradicate these primitive mindsets from civilised society.

 

[noco]

It's abhorrent allright, and indicates that some Muslims haven't yet emerged from medieval times into the real world of today.

No doubt there are similar Christian sects that mainly keep to themselves and don't try and enforce their views on others.

It's going to take a while to eradicate these primitive mindsets from civilised society.

The World has been trying to eradicate these mongrels for 1400 years without success.

I have made several comments in the past 3 or 4 years about Islam and accused of being a racist, in fact I believe the moderator removed one of my posts at the time.

As I have stated before, the Muslim community appear peace loving and moderate in small numbers but when their numbers increase through infiltration and their rapid increase in the birth rate, they will show their muscle...

Note the build up in the western suburbs of Sydney......In the electorate of Watson ( Tony Burke's seat) their numbers are 20% and increasing....They have their own schools and are brainwashing those kids 5 times a day with the teachings of the Koran.......when push comes to shove in 10 or 15 years time, those kids will only know one thing.....If you are not a Muslim, all others (Christians and Infidels) must be eliminated.

ISN'T THAT ALREADY HAPPENING IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW?

 

[basilio]

And I reckon your post Noco needs to be flushed real quick. It's putrid and as derogatory an attack on a whole culture as we have seen.

The whole world (and that certainly includes Muslim countries) is facing a very dangerous situation with splinter groups who have a one eyed view of the world. Isis, the Taliban are extreme fundamentalists. Everyone, including Pakistan, Indonesia, Syria and so on need to deal with this.

That just isn't the case with the Islam religion as a whole. If you wanted a comparison consider the Ku Klux Klan as a righteous Christian minded group intent on saving the world from Blacks, Jews et

 

[basilio]

The World has been trying to eradicate these mongrels for 1400 years without success.

Noco

Just as a point of clarification Noco which group of mongrels has "the World" been trying to eradicate for 1400 years? I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth but I'm very keen to hear what you mean by that statement.

And I am wondering why we are still reading it...

 

[Calliope]

That just isn't the case with the Islam religion as a whole. If you wanted a comparison consider the Ku Klux Klan as a righteous Christian minded groups intent on saving the world from Blacks, Jews et

For your information Bas, there is no KKK in Australia, nor am I aware of any recent KKK atrocities in the USA...certainly not on the grand scale as has been occurring in the Middle East and Africa by people who call themselves islamists..

As you may have noticed we have dozens of home grown Islamist jihadists running loose here and easily slipping through the cracks. Those who are thawted in their desire to join ISIS are becoming attracted to the idea of becoming martyrs and gain entry to Paradise and "the 72 dark-eyed virgins", by committing their atrocities here.

You are annoyed that this upsets Noco, and even you, cannot say that his fears are groundless. I can assure you there is no such thing as goodwill in the Muslim world for infidels, which I presume you are one.

 

[Joe Blow]

Just a reminder to all not to vilify all adherents of any particular religion. You cannot generalise by saying, "All muslims are..." any more than you can say "All Christians are..."

I do not have a problem with extremists of any stripe being hauled over the coals and aspects of a religion being condemned or criticised for its cruelty and brutality (female genital mutilation and Islamic jihad being obvious examples). However, let's not fall into the trap of putting all muslims or all adherents of any religion into the one box.

Hitler did just that 70 odd years ago and we all know how that turned out.

So please try and present reasonable, nuanced arguments rather than going off the deep end. Extremist points of view do not lend themselves to constructive discussion or sensible debate, which I'm hoping is why we are all here.

 

[pavilion103]

I guess it all comes down to what the fundamental doctrine teaches rather than any individuals or groups.

If it's the doctrine which is inherently evil then you can say Islam is evil. If the doctrine is not evil and the evil is done by those who misrepresent the doctrine then you cannot say it is evil.

This is the question to resolve.

 

[Bill M]

However, let's not fall into the trap of putting all muslims or all adherents of any religion into the one box.

Hitler did just that 70 odd years ago and we all know how that turned out.

So please try and present reasonable, nuanced arguments rather than going off the deep end. Extremist points of view do not lend themselves to constructive discussion or sensible debate, which I'm hoping is why we are all here.

And this is the exact position I take on this matter too. I have spent most of my life travelling the globe and I have met every religion under the sun. Not all Muslims are bad Muslims. There were young Muslims laying flowers down at Martin Place yesterday too, they were equally as shocked at what happened as all of us Australians were.

I've had Muslim tradesmen do work on my house and found them to be quite nice people. I have met 100's of Muslims in places like Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand and not one of them ever had a bad word to say to me, or my religion or my Country. We need a bit of perspective here, we just need to stick to the laws of the land, in this case Australia's Laws and just like anybody else who breaks them, deal with it.

I wouldn't want anybody telling me which God I should or shouldn't be following. I respect anybody's right to follow any religion of their choosing as long as they stick to the rules of host countries laws. If more people understood this then the world would be a better place and there would be less to argue and fight about.

 

[Craton]

When opposing religious beliefs are involved our response and sensitivity is heightened. Let's not assume all are tarred with the same brush because of one madman and, don't forget extremism and extremists exist everywhere. Mental health notwithstanding, Neo Nazism, drug cartels and corrupt pollies comes to mind.

I'm well aware that Islam doesn't exactly align with our Aussie way of thinking but it is advents like the Sydney siege that will unite not divide.

 

[noco]

Noco

Just as a point of clarification Noco which group of mongrels has "the World" been trying to eradicate for 1400 years? I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth but I'm very keen to hear what you mean by that statement.

And I am wondering why we are still reading it...

I was talking about the Islamic radicals like the IS......I believe my terminology fits the description of them very well.

What would call these people who kill 130 odd innocent children in Pakistan or those ones who slit the throats of journalists who report adversely of IS or like in Martin place this week where two innocent people were shot in the name of Islam?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~vika/TeachPort/islam00/esposito/chapt2.html

Here is some light reading for you to understand the Islamic movement from the year 632 AD.

 

[bellenuit]

I guess it all comes down to what the fundamental doctrine teaches rather than any individuals or groups.

If it's the doctrine which is inherently evil then you can say Islam (or the religion) is evil. If the doctrine is not evil and the evil is done by those who misrepresent the doctrine then you cannot say it is evil.

Bolds and underlines are my addition above.

Yes, I agree. If the doctrine is inherently evil then you can say the religion is evil.

PAKISTAN is mourning as the nation prepares for the mass funerals for 141 people, most of them children, killed in a Taliban attack on a military-run school in the country’s northwest.

The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) claimed responsibility for the assault, calling it revenge for a major military offensive in the region.


I wonder if they had been reading The Bible.

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Surely an aberration. The God of The Bible surely wouldn't kill children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

In one of the many recent ISIS atrocities, they stopped a bus and demanded that each passenger recite from memory passages of the Quran. Those that couldn't, including women and children, were beheaded. Thank God the Christian Bible isn't a source for such evil ideas.......

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And we have seen ISIS justifying rape of captured women in their recently published manual on when rape is allowed.

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Some other things to ponder.......

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

Islam advocates killing of apostates and non-believers. What does the Bible teach...

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Back to ISIS' manual and who can be raped.

Rape the virgins.....

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

What does Jesus of the New Testament have to say about the laws of the old testament.....

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"


Yes, Christianity is truly based on a doctrine (not every last word, but a substantial amount) that is truly evil.

 

[Tisme]

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Yes, Christianity is truly based on a doctrine (not every last word, but a substantial amount) that is truly evil.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7.12

Hardly evil unless you are a masochist

 

[Calliope]

Yes, Christianity is truly based on a doctrine (not every last word, but a substantial amount) that is truly evil.

That was then...this is now. If Christians are committing barbarities and atrocities now, on the same scale as those being perpetrated in the name of Allah, I think that those posters who make excuses for Islamic terrorism would be shouting it from the roof tops.

 

[bellenuit]

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7.12

Hardly evil unless you are a masochist

Well clearly what Matthew said DOESN'T sum up the Laws of the Prophets. One can read the Laws of the Prophets in the Bible and "do unto others what you would have them do to you" is not a summation. Obviously one of the many inconsistencies in the Bible and in this case a blatant error. Surely having the Bible at out disposal we can judge whether Matthew has it right or not by that statement and any rational judgement would conclude he is mistaken.

We can "think", so we do not need to conclude that two inconsistent statements can both be right. Only those who have "great faith" come to such a conclusion by suspending reason.

 

[bellenuit]

That was then...this is now. If Christians are committing barbarities and atrocities now, on the same scale as those being perpetrated in the name of Allah, I think that those posters who make excuses for Islamic terrorism would be shouting it from the roof tops.

I agree with your second sentence, but the first isn't applicable in relation to my response. My reply was in response to Pav's statement that if the doctrine is evil then the religion is evil. Clearly parts of the Christian doctrine are inherently evil. What's more, Pav has often claimed that our morality comes from the Bible and that that morality is permanent and unalterable. So there is no "That was then...". There is only one Christian God and that God issued commands to his followers to do actions comparable to that committed by present day ISIS or the Taliban. Jesus, as I have quoted from the New Testament, reiterated that the laws of the Old Testament were to be followed.

Yes, 99% of Christians are beyond that, thanks to the Reformation and Humanist thinking, but that's doesn't say the doctrine upon which the religion is based is not evil.

 

[bellenuit]

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7.12

As an aside, if that were to sum up the Laws of the Prophets, then we could have been spared the whole Christianity meme. The same has been adequately expressed by others, some a long time before Matthew.

Buddhism: 560 BC, From the Udanavarga 5:18- "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself."

Hinduism: 3200 BC, From the Hitopadesa- "One should always treat others as they themselves wish to be treated."

Zoroastrianism: 600 BC, From the Shast-na-shayast 13:29- "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others."

Confucianism: 557 BC, From the Analects 15:23- "What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."