Is political correctness going too far?

[SirRumpole]

Yes I also think that some women are aware of the violent or misogynist nature of the men they take up with but think that they (the woman) can "tame" them. Sometimes it might work , other times not.

 

[sptrawler]

I agree with most of that but I'll add that women most certainly are violent.

It's just that female violence doesn't tend to take the form of physical aggression.

A close relative of my wife and her husband have broken up after nearly 30 years, they struggled through IVF, but ended up with three lovely children.
Well unfortunately a couple of the children suffered suffered medical conditions, the husband ran a business spent a lot of time in helping the older child with issues and spent a lot of time in the evenings in hospital with the youngest child, all in all it was a terrible time for everyone.
However no matter how much effort he put in his wife complained it wasn't enough, she was putting in a lot of hours as she was a full time mum, in the end the children got better but the marriage got worse.
My immediate family had a tragic accident, I found it really interesting that when anyone broached the subject, they always asked how my wife was managing.
No one ever asked how I was travelling, not that it bothered me, but it was plainly obvious that I as a man was expected to just get on with it.

 

[SirRumpole]

A close relative of my wife and her husband have broken up after nearly 30 years, they struggled through IVF, but ended up with three lovely children.
Well unfortunately a couple of the children suffered suffered medical conditions, the husband ran a business spent a lot of time in helping the older child with issues and spent a lot of time in the evenings in hospital with the youngest child, all in all it was a terrible time for everyone.
However no matter how much effort he put in his wife complained it wasn't enough, she was putting in a lot of hours as she was a full time mum, in the end the children got better but the marriage got worse.
My immediate family had a tragic accident, I found it really interesting that when anyone broached the subject, they always asked how my wife was managing.
No one ever asked how I was travelling, not that it bothered me, but it was plainly obvious that I as a man was expected to just get on with it.

Sorry that happened to you sp. A bit of understanding goes a long way, I'm sorry you didn't get much.

Lack of understanding seems to be a factor in a very high male suicide rate (about three times that of females). As you say , men are just expected to cope but obviously a lot aren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Australia

 

[sptrawler]

Sorry that happened to you sp. A bit of understanding goes a long way, I'm sorry you didn't get much.

Lack of understanding seems to be a factor in a very high male suicide rate (about three times that of females). As you say , men are just expected to cope but obviously a lot aren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Australia

Unless you are the type of person, that just accepts that life can deal you a $hit hand and get on with it, I can very easily understand how suicide would appear an option.

 

[macca]

I think it is both nature and nurture, women love to talk and share all sorts of info with other women. This allows them to clarify things in their mind and the old saying "a trouble shared is a trouble halved" does hold true IMO

My missus will talk to anyone, anywhere and the things people tell her 5mins after they meet her are weird, just as well I am not the jealous type.

Blokes just say "too much information" when the nitty gritty gets an airing unless it is of common interest to both blokes.

However, most men have been brought up with the expectation that they are the strong ones and should protect their women from trouble, so rather than discuss their problem they protect their women by not talking about it with them.

The other difference is that women let other women have their say without much interruption, whereas men by nature are problem solvers. This leads to men interrupting with solutions to the perceived problem when women don't want a solution they just want "have a bitch" about something.

Took me 40 years to work that one out

 

[Smurf1976]

Lack of understanding seems to be a factor in a very high male suicide rate (about three times that of females). As you say , men are just expected to cope but obviously a lot aren't.

I think a big issue is that society has created an expectation that there's some sort of support, help etc available.

Various mental health campaigns over the years on TV and radio. Things like employers putting posters up around the office and so on. They all send basically the same message - if you need help, it's OK, talk to someone.

In practice it seems that such supports aren't really there in practice. As they go to access each support, they find it's either not really there at all or it crumbles beneath them.

They go to their friends and find that who they thought were friends aren't really true friends at all. For many people, especially men, this will turn out to be most of their "friends".

Fair chance they'll get the same with family. What they thought would be there isn't really.

They go to their employer and it's hit and miss. Might get a good response, might end up being marched out the door. Some employers have good policies, some don't, but very few have the skills required within management to determine that an employee's circumstances are in fact due to a mental health issue such that there's a very good chance of an inappropriate response making things worse.

Overall I'd liken the situation to having an empty fire extinguisher mounted on the wall with the obligatory sign above it. Looks like everything's taken care of but in truth it does more harm than good - in a real fire you'd be better off not wasting time with something that's not going to be of any help whatsoever. Better to have nothing there and for that to be obvious than to create an illusion of safety which isn't real. Society's overall response to mental health seems much like that - looks good but in practice just diverts time and resources away from anything which might actually help.

I don't have any real solutions to all that but one thing I'll say is the women have it closer to right than men do typically. To be clear, I'm a bloke and I've always been around stereotypical male sorts of things in terms of work, hobbies and so on but if there's one thing men need to do it's open their mouths more and also shut their mouths. Speak and listen. Do more of both. A lot more. Listening does not mean offering a solution - it means listening. Actually listening and no squirming once it gets painfully detailed.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think a big issue is that society has created an expectation that there's some sort of support, help etc available.

You see cases like this a lot.

People like police or ambos who attend horrific scenes are expected to keep doing this unemotionally or be regarded as "weak".

This 2014 report shows the situation at that time. You have to hope the situation has improved since then.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...the-job-on-mental-health-20141129-11wn1j.html

 

[Smurf1976]

You see cases like this a lot.

People like police or ambos who attend horrific scenes are expected to keep doing this unemotionally or be regarded as "weak".

Another thing, and I've seen this play out as an observer, is that a sociopath does not lose their skills to manipulate once the matter goes to court.

Oh no they don't. That's when it ramps up hence they usually escape any meaningful punishment and carry on abusing.

That there doesn't seem to be any effective way of dealing with bullies, sociopaths and the like until such point as they do something truly drastic is a big part of the problem. A victim can be 100% certain of what's going on, they can have plenty of examples and evidence, they can be willing to take the matter to court but that doesn't mean they'll actually put a stop to it. At best, they might put a stop to themselves being the target but ultimately the individual walks free to go and do it to someone else which usually they will.

 

[basilio]

Another thing, and I've seen this play out as an observer, is that a sociopath does not lose their skills to manipulate once the matter goes to court.

Oh no they don't. That's when it ramps up hence they usually escape any meaningful punishment and carry on abusing.

That there doesn't seem to be any effective way of dealing with bullies, sociopaths and the like until such point as they do something truly drastic is a big part of the problem. A victim can be 100% certain of what's going on, they can have plenty of examples and evidence, they can be willing to take the matter to court but that doesn't mean they'll actually put a stop to it. At best, they might put a stop to themselves being the target but ultimately the individual walks free to go and do it to someone else which usually they will.

So well worth repeating. Real and terrifying.

 

[Smurf1976]

So well worth repeating. Real and terrifying.

Biggest red flag, an early warning sign, is anyone who imposes rules for the sake of it.

Many rules in society are necessary. Eg we need road rules not so much for their detail but to get everyone to do the same thing under the same circumstances. We could change the rules but what matters is that what you do, and what I in another car think you're going to do, are the same thing. Rules like that are reasonable and necessary.

Many people however impose rules for no reason. Governments do it, businesses do it, individuals do it. That's always a huge red flag if the only purpose of the rule is exercising control for the sake of control, it's not applying consistency where it's needed (eg driving) and it's not preventing what would otherwise be some actual problem.

As one silly example, well I know someone who strictly controlled the amount of firewood his wife put on the fire during the day whilst he was at work. Controlled to the point of numbering the logs and checking the pile each day - I kid you not. Now they weren't poor, he had a full time job paying reasonably, and firewood's pretty cheap to buy in that location anyway so no real reason to be worried about it to the point of counting out the logs. He certainly wasn't an environmentalist in thinking so it wasn't concern about that sort of thing driving it either, it was just control for the sake of it.

Even if they had been poor and needing to ration their use of things, it still wouldn't warrant the incredible level of distrust displayed toward his wife by him literally numbering the logs of wood and checking each day.

I couldn't do anything about any other domestic situations that might've been going on, I had no proof of that, but I most certainly did stop him stealing the company's spray paint cans for the purpose of numbering the wood.

He was not a physically abusive man so far as I know but he was certainly abusive in other ways that's for sure. Control freak to the max, giving people the silent treatment, grunting and yelling etc.

Avoid such people. Regardless of whether or not they turn physically violent it's a huge red flag that the potential is there, the mind's not working well.

 

[SirRumpole]

Political correctness again ?

This ABC story pours heaps on Bettina Arndt for her comments, but nowhere that I can see does it quote her exact words and let us make up our own minds about what she said.

The ABC is getting more into just telling one side of the story I'm afraid.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...tina-arndt-to-be-stripped-of-honours/12000314

 

[joeno]

It always has a narrative in Australia and other western countries. Which is a media driven effort to promote loving blacks. Loving muslims. Hate aboriginals. Hate Asians. No reason, that's the narrative.

 

[sptrawler]

Political correctness again ?

This ABC story pours heaps on Bettina Arndt for her comments, but nowhere that I can see does it quote her exact words and let us make up our own minds about what she said.

The ABC is getting more into just telling one side of the story I'm afraid.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...tina-arndt-to-be-stripped-of-honours/12000314

I was wondering what she said, it sounds like another Israel Folau, Margaret Court style witch hunt, get the pitchforks out and the bonfire going sort of stuff.

 

[macca]

I was wondering what she said, it sounds like another Israel Folau, Margaret Court style witch hunt, get the pitchforks out and the bonfire going sort of stuff.

from Bettina Arndts twitter

<<A senior Queensland police officer is stood aside for doing his job professionally and telling the truth about how an incident should be investigated. This could well be a tipping point. I constantly hear from police appalled at being required to impose unjust laws and...>>

 

[SirRumpole]

I was wondering what she said, it sounds like another Israel Folau, Margaret Court style witch hunt, get the pitchforks out and the bonfire going sort of stuff.

The coroner will have to make an unemotional report on this case, and if they find that there are factors like say a Family Court ruling that may have contributed to this guy going of the deep end , will there be a great outcry by the media calling for the Coroner's sacking ?

 

[basilio]

from Bettina Arndts twitter

<<A senior Queensland police officer is stood aside for doing his job professionally and telling the truth about how an incident should be investigated. This could well be a tipping point. I constantly hear from police appalled at being required to impose unjust laws and...>>

I think this is sheer, nasty, bloody rubbish.

There was no "justification" in any universe for the horrible murder of Hannah Baxter and and the three children.
Even at this stage all the comments from friends and family say this guy was a control freak who was determined to rule his roost whatever happened

The cop who made the comment recognized very quickly that he had made a mess of his statement. He apologised unreservedly. For Bettina Ardnt and those who use his statements, twist them and milk this murder in the names of men rights is unconscionable.

For Gods sake find another another example that has some resemblance of fairness. This isn't it.

 

[sptrawler]

The coroner will have to make an unemotional report on this case, and if they find that there are factors like say a Family Court ruling that may have contributed to this guy going of the deep end , will there be a great outcry by the media calling for the Coroner's sacking ?

It is just amazing at the moment, that only one side of an issue has the right to be aired, it is like the guy that was sacked from insiders. I never heard him but it sounds like he just would not parrot what was required.
I think all this does is cause more negative sentiment, against those pushing the agenda and results in a backlash against what they support. A totalitarian attitude, that doesn't allow open debate, ends with a counter productive outcome IMO
The people still think what they want, but they don't voice it and that it what has stuffed up polling.
Anyone who has an opposing view to the media, just say nothing, untill they are in private with like minded people.
These days, it all has to be about the emotion, rather than the underlying issues.
Something triggered that person to kill those he loved and himself, or he should have been in an institution, which he wasn't. So it obviously needs investigating, or nothing is learnt.

 

[moXJO]

I think this is sheer, nasty, bloody rubbish.

There was no "justification" in any universe for the horrible murder of Hannah Baxter and and the three children.
Even at this stage all the comments from friends and family say this guy was a control freak who was determined to rule his roost whatever happened

The cop who made the comment recognized very quickly that he had made a mess of his statement. He apologised unreservedly. For Bettina Ardnt and those who use his statements, twist them and milk this murder in the names of men rights is unconscionable.

For Gods sake find another another example that has some resemblance of fairness. This isn't it.

Wtf does that have to do with a police investigation?

Last time I checked investigations are not run by emotions for proof.

 

[moXJO]

A friend of the family, Simon Farmer, said Baxter was “very emotional, very upset” when he FaceTimed the kids the night before.

“Hannah noticed that there was a distinct change in terms of, whether we want to call it unravelling, but a heightened level of emotion,” he told the program.

“He’s crying. I don’t know when something like that happens whether there’s a number for her to call and go you might want to intervene here.

“You might want to go and send someone around or ring him preferably not a police officer with a badge but maybe some sort of support service at that point when she’s noticed, I have a bloke unravelling here and he might be getting closer to the edge.”

There's a point that it comes to where guys go unhinged. I've seen it many times.
This will keep happening imo, there just isn't enough resources to deal with it.

One guy I knew went full bore. He almost ran another woman that I also knew off the road in a rage incident. When the guy realized he knew the woman he said it was "nothing personal". Police said he was after anyone that night.
Fast forward a few weeks and he is on the roof of his house taking pot shots at police. I think he might of killed someone as well, was a while back. Ended up putting one through himself.

The signs are there but not a lot that can be done. People around them need to notice.

 

[SirRumpole]

There was no "justification" in any universe for the horrible murder of Hannah Baxter and and the three children.

No justification, but there are always reasons, and unless we know what they are nothing will be learned.

The fact that the guy killed himself in a gruesome way indicates that he was seriously deranged or had some remorse.

Anyway I guess it doesn't matter since he's now dead, but there are others out there like him who maybe can be stopped from doing something similar.