Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    196
Mate all I wanted was a pie

Then buy one, and the vender that sells it to you will probably make more money from that $5.50 pie than they do selling some one $60 (40 Liters) of fuel.

In fact your pie is probably subsidizing fuels sales, not being subsidized by fuel sales, so don’t worry 24hr snacks are not going to disappear.

pretty much every McDonald’s in my area is open 24 hours now, and not a single one has a petrol bowser.
 
Then buy one, and the vender that sells it to you will probably make more money from that $5.50 pie than they do selling some one $60 (40 Liters) of fuel.

In fact your pie is probably subsidizing fuels sales, not being subsidized by fuel sales, so don’t worry 24hr snacks are not going to disappear.

pretty much every McDonald’s in my area is open 24 hours now, and not a single one has a petrol bowser.

2 years old, but this indicates the margins are a lot bigger than you say.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-01/retailers-reaping-record-margins-at-the-fuel-pump/8862268
 
2 years old, but this indicates the margins are a lot bigger than you say.

Not at all.

the article stats “record margins” for Sydney are 10 cents per litre, so Even at that “record margin”

40 liters of fuel = $4 profit, where as that $5.50 pie probably also makes about $4 profit, if you add a coke then earn another $4.

not to mention That the pie oven cost a lot less to maintain than the system of pumps and underground fuel tanks.

As I said their is a reason they always try to up sell you, and The counter is full of stuff they are trying to sell.
 
Then buy one, and the vender that sells it to you will probably make more money from that $5.50 pie than they do selling some one $60 (40 Liters) of fuel.

In fact your pie is probably subsidizing fuels sales, not being subsidized by fuel sales, so don’t worry 24hr snacks are not going to disappear.

pretty much every McDonald’s in my area is open 24 hours now, and not a single one has a petrol bowser.
Do they sell pies
 
Not at all.

the article stats “record margins” for Sydney are 10 cents per litre, so Even at that “record margin”

40 liters of fuel = $4 profit, where as that $5.50 pie probably also makes about $4 profit, if you add a coke then earn another $4.

not to mention That the pie oven cost a lot less to maintain than the system of pumps and underground fuel tanks.

As I said their is a reason they always try to up sell you, and The counter is full of stuff they are trying to sell.

Well, I believe you said margins were 2-3c per litre, so 10 is about 3 times that.
 
Back to the EV stream
I found this page interesting,
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fossil-fuels-energy-content-d_1298.html
providing the energy content for various fuels
Especially when discussing hydrogen cars
Hydrogen is amazing liquid hydrogen is 3 times nearly higher than other LNG, petrol etc..this you will read in the new, the part to be aware of is the actual density
First column
Liquid hydrogen:71kg per cubic meter vs 800 to 900 for diesel or petrol
What does that mean?
For an equal amount of energy storage, your tank will need to be 3 times bigger..10 (density factor)x1/3
As hydrogen store more energy
Conclusion your hydrogen tank will need to be 3 to 4 time bigger than your diesel one
For those old enough , you remember the shuttle enormous side boosters.liquid hydrogen...
So not impossible but a technical challenge especially with the extra compression and protections required in case of fire crash
Just wanted to bring a bit of technology to the debate
We also know that currently it is cheaper to produce hydrogen in Australia from gas ..petroleum or seam gas, than from water splitting..ideally with solar power
Call me pessimistic..or realistic minded
 
Back to the EV stream
I found this page interesting,
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fossil-fuels-energy-content-d_1298.html
providing the energy content for various fuels
Especially when discussing hydrogen cars
Hydrogen is amazing liquid hydrogen is 3 times nearly higher than other LNG, petrol etc..this you will read in the new, the part to be aware of is the actual density
First column
Liquid hydrogen:71kg per cubic meter vs 800 to 900 for diesel or petrol
What does that mean?
For an equal amount of energy storage, your tank will need to be 3 times bigger..10 (density factor)x1/3
As hydrogen store more energy
Conclusion your hydrogen tank will need to be 3 to 4 time bigger than your diesel one
For those old enough , you remember the shuttle enormous side boosters.liquid hydrogen...
So not impossible but a technical challenge especially with the extra compression and protections required in case of fire crash
Just wanted to bring a bit of technology to the debate
We also know that currently it is cheaper to produce hydrogen in Australia from gas ..petroleum or seam gas, than from water splitting..ideally with solar power
Call me pessimistic..or realistic minded

Haven't we discussed the advance by CSIRO where the hydrogen is stored as liquid ammonia (NH4) and separated in the fuel tank ?

https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2018/CSIRO-tech-accelerates-hydrogen-vehicle-future
 
How about looking at it the other way around.

Suppose that all cars are electric and someone's proposing that we switch to a system which:

*Requires the consumption of a liquid which needs to be frequently purchased in substantial volume. In practice this requires dedicated retail outlets, it is not practical to supply the required volume in bottles or other containers sold via normal shops, and a network of such facilities will need to be constructed to enable the operation of these vehicles.

*This liquid is toxic to the natural environment if spilled, is extremely flammable and ignites explosively, is a carcinogen and also readily evaporates thus requiring careful storage. Every vehicle needs to carry this material, without which it immediately ceases to operate.

*Production of this liquid requires finding suitable places in which to drill holes in the ground, extracting a liquid which then requires considerable processing to be suitable for use.

*Finding of locations suitable for the drilling of these holes is itself a major and costly exercise. Locations thought to be suitable are, when drilled, often found to be unsuitable in practice.

*Places known to be suitable for the extraction of said liquid are predominantly on the other side of the world, in harsh physical environments and in non-Western countries such that maintaining supplies is likely to involve major political implications and perhaps even an effectively permanent military presence around these locations.

*The liquid in question is a finite resource and will ultimately run out.

*Use of this system involves each vehicle being fitted with something known as an exhaust. This emits an assortment of gases including some which form urban smog, are toxic to humans or which scientists consider likely to alter the planet's climate permanently.

Now apart perhaps from some very specific purposes which do not apply to ordinary consumers or small business, can anyone give me a good reason why we'd switch from EV's to this alternative system which for simplicity we'll refer to as "internal combustion"? :2twocents
 
and as discussed before , it is actually a battle of centralised toward..potentially..decentralised source of energy; governments and corporates would probably prefer hydrogen fuel for that reason..
The best would be an hydrogen battery..noting impossible in the concept but probably need mechanical compression so not realistic
The other problem with Battery EV as opposed to H2 EV, H2 is easier to tax, grid electricity is a problem as it doesn't just supply EV's and also as VC says most can mitigate their costs with PV.
Therefore unless you install EV charge specific metering, the poor will be subsidising the wealthy, but that in itself obviously isn't a problem, as the cheer squad on here is still on full song.:roflmao:
The Government could go to a mileage tax, but again that causes a problem for rural areas, also companies will write it off while those in the Country will subsidies those in the Cities.
Much easier just to charge by volume as happens with fuel.
It may cost the plebs more, but hey when has that bothered the Government? Better to have a system that user pays, than a system that is hard to tax.
 
Haven't we discussed the advance by CSIRO where the hydrogen is stored as liquid ammonia (NH4) and separated in the fuel tank ?

https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2018/CSIRO-tech-accelerates-hydrogen-vehicle-future
So that will mean even bigger tank as you need to store the useless nitrogen!!
Pure physics
By the way you do NOT want to be near an ammonia leak
Car crash run run...
Anyway, just pointing what i would call scientific/technical common sense
It could have applications but you will not see it in the street unless forced by gov for taxation purpose
 
None
How about looking at it the other way around.

Suppose that all cars are electric and someone's proposing that we switch to a system which:

*Requires the consumption of a liquid which needs to be frequently purchased in substantial volume. In practice this requires dedicated retail outlets, it is not practical to supply the required volume in bottles or other containers sold via normal shops, and a network of such facilities will need to be constructed to enable the operation of these vehicles.

*This liquid is toxic to the natural environment if spilled, is extremely flammable and ignites explosively, is a carcinogen and also readily evaporates thus requiring careful storage. Every vehicle needs to carry this material, without which it immediately ceases to operate.

*Production of this liquid requires finding suitable places in which to drill holes in the ground, extracting a liquid which then requires considerable processing to be suitable for use.

*Finding of locations suitable for the drilling of these holes is itself a major and costly exercise. Locations thought to be suitable are, when drilled, often found to be unsuitable in practice.

*Places known to be suitable for the extraction of said liquid are predominantly on the other side of the world, in harsh physical environments and in non-Western countries such that maintaining supplies is likely to involve major political implications and perhaps even an effectively permanent military presence around these locations.

*The liquid in question is a finite resource and will ultimately run out.

*Use of this system involves each vehicle being fitted with something known as an exhaust. This emits an assortment of gases including some which form urban smog, are toxic to humans or which scientists consider likely to alter the planet's climate permanently.

Now apart perhaps from some very specific purposes which do not apply to ordinary consumers or small business, can anyone give me a good reason why we'd switch from EV's to this alternative system which for simplicity we'll refer to as "internal combustion"? :2twocents
None but imagine if the infrastructure is already there whereas the electricity grid is not...
Oops
So honestly ev before h2, and ev is the future
We all agree
As Australia is usually a good 2 decades behind, and ev are not there yet anywhere:
ice in australia have a good 20y
So still time to buy a cheap diesel and save money for the next decades
 
Back to the EV stream
I found this page interesting,
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fossil-fuels-energy-content-d_1298.html
providing the energy content for various fuels
Especially when discussing hydrogen cars
Hydrogen is amazing liquid hydrogen is 3 times nearly higher than other LNG, petrol etc..this you will read in the new, the part to be aware of is the actual density
First column
Liquid hydrogen:71kg per cubic meter vs 800 to 900 for diesel or petrol
What does that mean?
For an equal amount of energy storage, your tank will need to be 3 times bigger..10 (density factor)x1/3
As hydrogen store more energy
Conclusion your hydrogen tank will need to be 3 to 4 time bigger than your diesel one
For those old enough , you remember the shuttle enormous side boosters.liquid hydrogen...
So not impossible but a technical challenge especially with the extra compression and protections required in case of fire crash
Just wanted to bring a bit of technology to the debate
We also know that currently it is cheaper to produce hydrogen in Australia from gas ..petroleum or seam gas, than from water splitting..ideally with solar power
Call me pessimistic..or realistic minded
From what I've read frog, about 5kg's of liquid H2 is good for about 500klm, the cylinders will be as oxy or acetelene tanks are now, tested pressure vessels as the hydrogen will be at high pressure.
But in reality this isn't a major hurdle, you can already buy liquid H2 bottles from BOC, it wouldn't be a great deal of difference from the filling of LPG and taxis have been doing that for half a century.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
From the article:
The FCV uses Toyota's proprietary, small, light-weight fuel cell stack and two 70 MPa high-pressure hydrogen tanks placed beneath the specially designed body. The Toyota FCV concept can accommodate up to four occupants. For the full-scale market launch in 2015, the cost of the fuel cell system is expected to be 95% lower than that of the 2008 Toyota FCHV-adv.[23]

The Mirai has two hydrogen tanks with a three-layer structure made of carbon fiber-reinforced plastic consisting of nylon 6 from Ube Industries[46] and other materials. The tanks store hydrogen at 70 MPa (10,000 psi). The tanks have a combined weight 87.5 kg (193 lb).[4][42] and 5 kg capacity.

Toyota's news release for the 2021 Mirai refers to a 30% increase in range due to increased hydrogen storage capacity, but does not specify the capacity.

The official Toyota consumption declaration states hydrogen is consumed at the rate of 0.8 kg/100 km (2.8 lb/100 miles) on the combined urban/extra urban cycle
.

The biggest problem diesel is going to have is political pressure, as is happening in Europe, where they are to be banned in the next few years.
Which is a shame, because I think they are far better, than petrol engined cars.
The thermodynamic efficiency is higher and the soot particles can be collected with DPF filters, which now are extremely good.
Just my opinion.

Toyota_Mirai
 
Last edited:
Not at all.

the article stats “record margins” for Sydney are 10 cents per litre, so Even at that “record margin”

40 liters of fuel = $4 profit, where as that $5.50 pie probably also makes about $4 profit, if you add a coke then earn another $4.

not to mention That the pie oven cost a lot less to maintain than the system of pumps and underground fuel tanks.

As I said their is a reason they always try to up sell you, and The counter is full of stuff they are trying to sell.
This is actually true. They have 400-600% markups on goods in store. Those 24/7 types of stores actually can return your initial investment in the first year when located around certain areas of Sydney.
 
70% of the atmosphere is nitrogen froggy, why do you need to store it, just set it free !
You misunderstood what i meant
If you need 4kg of h2, if combined with N, it will be obviously heavier to store as you will need to store as carburant one extra N for 2 H2 molécules
Simple chemistry
 
From what I've read frog, about 5kg's of liquid H2 is good for about 500klm, the cylinders will be as oxy or acetelene tanks are now, tested pressure vessels as the hydrogen will be at high pressure.
But in reality this isn't a major hurdle, you can already buy liquid H2 bottles from BOC, it wouldn't be a great deal of difference from the filling of LPG and taxis have been doing that for half a century.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
From the article:
The FCV uses Toyota's proprietary, small, light-weight fuel cell stack and two 70 MPa high-pressure hydrogen tanks placed beneath the specially designed body. The Toyota FCV concept can accommodate up to four occupants. For the full-scale market launch in 2015, the cost of the fuel cell system is expected to be 95% lower than that of the 2008 Toyota FCHV-adv.[23]

The Mirai has two hydrogen tanks with a three-layer structure made of carbon fiber-reinforced plastic consisting of nylon 6 from Ube Industries[46] and other materials. The tanks store hydrogen at 70 MPa (10,000 psi). The tanks have a combined weight 87.5 kg (193 lb).[4][42] and 5 kg capacity.

Toyota's news release for the 2021 Mirai refers to a 30% increase in range due to increased hydrogen storage capacity, but does not specify the capacity.

The official Toyota consumption declaration states hydrogen is consumed at the rate of 0.8 kg/100 km (2.8 lb/100 miles) on the combined urban/extra urban cycle
.

The biggest problem diesel is going to have is political pressure, as is happening in Europe, where they are to be banned in the next few years.
Which is a shame, because I think they are far better, than petrol engined cars.
The thermodynamic efficiency is higher and the soot particles can be collected with DPF filters, which now are extremely good.
Just my opinion.

Toyota_Mirai

Interesting indeed
But physic does not lie so 0.8kg per 100 km hydrogen is roughly equivalent to a 2.5l per 100km petrol
So basically a prius efficiency..optimal on a micro car with a 90kg tank for 5kg fuel
Anyone knows the energy requirement to compress h2 to 10000psi?
Using fuel cell you get back to ev efficiency but i believe the h2 production and compression /transport would be more costly than the losses in an ev battery?
Imho, maybe good for heavy vehicle running 24/7, ships more than personal cars where ev would be more convenient
Planes also as they need to be lighter and especially 24/7 running cycles with fuel cells or jets
But H2 jets would find it hard to compete with fossil fuel due to tank weight and volume
probably brand new type of wings etc needed maybe delta style wings
Would be an interesting field to work in.
 
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