Electric cars?

[qldfrog]

Actually that’s not even close to being correct.

I know we are not really good at any sensible argument so i will pass but you will explain me how you can power an ev with all the loss along the way from the dirtiest energy in term of co2 and produce less co2 than an ice on petrol....
Just pure common sense and basic technology knowledge no need of guardian link please
I posted a link a while back about this on this very thread
Reality does not need to be modified: ev are attractive, will be a good solution when powered on solar or wind, can be today if you are indeed on solar and i aim toward that way
But Jesus this is not a CC forum, we can be sensible and not evangelistic
i learnt one think in life, there is no black and white options
I will even err to say that the more ev, the more power need when commuters are back from work in the evening and the more coal or maybe NG if we have some left will be burnt

 

[qldfrog]

Typical thermal efficiency for utility-scale electrical generators is around 37% for coal and oil-fired plants, and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-fired plants. So 40pc average
@Smurf1976 can give us real figures i am sure
10 pc loss transmission and transformers
Battery Charge/discharge efficiency 80–90%[5]
So 15pc loss
Then high efficiency of motor:85pc to 90pc lets say 85pc realistic
I forget the battery weight issue, we were talking commodore so basically both monster, better buy an i20 but that is not the point

Ice modern efficiency 25 to 35%

For 100 energy coal or oil
So ev will get get
100x0.4x0.9x0.85 equal 31pc or a bit below...
And guess what.....that is the ice performance
I blame the education system here
I do not consider the battery production , the replace after 10y and the average weight carried fpr fuel in both cases which would sink EV
So charge on solar, all good
..probably otherwise, the green equivalent of the Bentley

 

[qldfrog]

Sorry to spoil the party.not ready yet here

 

[qldfrog]

And apologies for the awful spelling, was on mobile

 

[Smurf1976]

Typical thermal efficiency for utility-scale electrical generators is around 37% for coal and oil-fired plants, and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-fired plants. So 40pc average
@Smurf1976 can give us real figures i am sure

For plant of any significant scale, that is actual power stations, in main grids in Australia the range is about 57% down to barely above 20%.

In practice though the vast majority is in the 28% - 50% range. There's not much outside that.

No comment as to the plant name or owner of those at the extremes.

 

[qldfrog]

And last one, if you use a diesel
Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%.[6]
So much better than a telsa car/truck in term of co2

 

[qldfrog]

For plant of any significant scale, that is actual power stations, in main grids in Australia the range is about 57% down to barely above 20%.

In practice though the vast majority is in the 28% - 50% range. There's not much outside that.

No comment as to the plant name or owner of those at the extremes.

Thank Smurf for the figure validation on power plant efficiency, i do not want to involve you in the whole argument.but my 0.4 figure is relevant ..can be better can be worse but in the ballpoint
Soon i will be labelled a petrol head..which i am not but....
I like truth too much for my own good..or wealth...

 

[qldfrog]

And last one, if you use a diesel
Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%.[6]
So much better than a telsa car/truck in term of co2

Talking only for australia, nz for example would be radically different, or tasmania...

 

[Smurf1976]

Thank Smurf for the figure validation on power plant efficiency, i do not want to involve you in the whole argument

I’ll keep out of the argument

If you wanted a more direct comparison with diesel though well AGL have publicly disclosed the details of equipment installed at their new Barker Inlet facility and the manufacturer’s data states 46%.

That’s running either straight diesel or gas with diesel pilot (so mostly gas). In practice the intent is to run gas mostly.

In practice what’s actually achieved will depend on operating conditions and so on.

 

[basilio]

It would be great if electric cars were powered solely by renewable energy now. But that is changing rapidly and will continue to do so.
One point worth making is that in theory much of an electric cars charging will be done overnight when normal electricity demand is low and in fact there is a surplus of power. Generators aren't turned off so actually using off peak load makes sense.
Electric cars don't contribute to additional direct air pollution. If they are being charged off coal fired power then the additional CO2 would be relatively insignificant again particularly if it is off peak power.

 

[Smurf1976]

One point worth making is that in theory much of an electric cars charging will be done overnight when normal electricity demand is low and in fact there is a surplus of power. Generators aren't turned off so actually using off peak load makes sense.
Electric cars don't contribute to additional direct air pollution. If they are being charged off coal fired power then the additional CO2 would be relatively insignificant again particularly if it is off peak power.

I'm keeping out of the debate because I see too much ideology surrounding all this at present (everywhere, not specifically referring to ASF in saying that) but I'll note that there also other practical benefits which I'll illustrate by pointing out that nobody's firing missiles at the Latrobe Valley.

If there's one good thing about coal it's that there's lots of it and it's widely dispersed geographically. Even in purely Australian terms, Sydney and Hobart have both mined coal in the urban area in the past and there are known deposits around Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide too. Go further afield and there's lots of it.

That's not to say that we should necessarily charge EV's using coal but it doesn't lead to wars that's one good thing about it.

 

[qldfrog]

It would be great if electric cars were powered solely by renewable energy now. But that is changing rapidly and will continue to do so.
One point worth making is that in theory much of an electric cars charging will be done overnight when normal electricity demand is low and in fact there is a surplus of power. Generators aren't turned off so actually using off peak load makes sense.
Electric cars don't contribute to additional direct air pollution. If they are being charged off coal fired power then the additional CO2 would be relatively insignificant again particularly if it is off peak power.

@basilio, i will switch off the ignore button and try to have a logical exchange
EV are great
Truly
But my point is in Australia except Tasmania, an EV owner is producing more CO2 than an ICE owner today, unless charging on green energy.
If you charge on the grid, you produce more co2..out there and your pollution is just transposed
I lived in Shenzhen and EV there are a godsend as air pollution is minimal compared to Beijing.
Less particle, noise ..fabulous
But still producing more co2 for the planet
I also invite you to follow extremely informative threads on energy production here on ASF and understand that today, offpeak night charge is actually the worst time in term of generation, it is a very obsolete idea
Nowadays, with solar farms, we want power to be used around lunchtime not midnight, power is free then,$0
So none of these arguments stand in front of: in mainland australia, unless you charge on green energy..yours or purchased, you generate more co2 than an ICE equivalent.
Nothing to be proud of, will hopefully change in the future with snowy 2 scheme etc
But a fact
Why are people afraid of facts?
And imagine if i include the battery co2 released during production...

 

[Value Collector]

I know we are not really good at any sensible argument so i will pass but you will explain me how you can power an ev with all the loss along the way from the dirtiest energy in term of co2 and produce less co2 than an ice on petrol....
Just pure common sense and basic technology knowledge no need of guardian link please
I posted a link a while back about this on this very thread
Reality does not need to be modified: ev are attractive, will be a good solution when powered on solar or wind, can be today if you are indeed on solar and i aim toward that way
But Jesus this is not a CC forum, we can be sensible and not evangelistic
i learnt one think in life, there is no black and white options
I will even err to say that the more ev, the more power need when commuters are back from work in the evening and the more coal or maybe NG if we have some left will be burnt

I have already explained it.

EVs use a mixture of clean and dirty fuels where as petrol/diesel use pretty much 100% dirty fuels, so the EV’s have a head start due to fuel mix.

Then once the energy reaches the car the EV uses it a lot more efficiently.

As stated before, energy losses in electric generation and distribution exist, but so do energy losses in transport and refining of oil, not to mention that some electric generation is done right where the batteries are charged.

 

[Value Collector]

Ice modern efficiency 25 to 35%

That’s only the efficiency of the car itself, what % of a barrel of oil makes it to the car.

You aren’t factoring in the energy losses pumping the oil from the ground, shipping it across an ocean, refining that barrel of oil, trucking/shipping it again to a servo possibly 1000’s of kilometers away, then Pumping it out the ground again while the servo is lit up like Las Vegas.

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah nah the petrol floats them
They wouldn't survive in Perth
I'm talking suburbs

My first job when I left school was at a servo, and it was the store that kept it alive.

The owner used to say all the time that the petrol was just to help get people in the door to sell cigarettes, chocolate bars etc.

I remember selling fuel at a 2cent mark up and working out we would have to sell 600liters an hour just to cover my wage.

there is a reason station attendants are told to try and up sell you to buy a chocolate bar or gaterade.

 

[qldfrog]

That’s only the efficiency of the car itself, what % of a barrel of oil makes it to the car.

You aren’t factoring in the energy losses pumping the oil from the ground, shipping it across an ocean, refining that barrel of oil, trucking/shipping it again to a servo possibly 1000’s of kilometers away, then Pumping it out the ground again while the servo is lit up like Las Vegas.

VC so the coal you burn to charge was under your charger, or the gas imported from the US as we sold ours?
Did you even realised i gave you your 10y livetime battery for free, all the nickel just magically appearing
That is in itself enough to match co2 emissions of s small microcar
You are in denial, do not have any sensible match to figures(facts)
And so happy co2 belching drive
And you might even vote green..get a calculator and some facts

 

[qldfrog]

What does it have to be an argument to provide figures and facts to dummies
The age of the intellect selfies

 

[basilio]

Did you even realised i gave you your 10y livetime battery for free, all the nickel just magically appearing
That is in itself enough to match co2 emissions of s small microcar

QF where do ever come up with the "figures" that justify your views ? Can you show us the justifications for your argument ?

 

[Humid]

My first job when I left school was at a servo, and it was the store that kept it alive.

The owner used to say all the time that the petrol was just to help get people in the door to sell cigarettes, chocolate bars etc.

I remember selling fuel at a 2cent mark up and working out we would have to sell 600liters an hour just to cover my wage.

there is a reason station attendants are told to try and up sell you to buy a chocolate bar or gaterade.

Hahaha “the owner of a petrol station”
Things have changed mate
At that time there was probably a mechanic there too lol
Not sure where you live but I can’t say I’ve met a servo owner for a while

 

[Value Collector]

Hahaha “the owner of a petrol station”
Things have changed mate
At that time there was probably a mechanic there too lol
Not sure where you live but I can’t say I’ve met a servo owner for a while

it was 2000, at the time in Qld lots of ampol/caltex were privately owned “distributorships”, I don’t know if they still operate this way.

However, the constant up selling pretty much every servo does to this day tells me things haven’t changed much, and the margins on fuel wafer thin at the retail end.