Electric cars?

[mullokintyre]

@mullokintyre @SirRumpole @qldfrog

I was reading over some Tax rules yeaterday, and I came across an interesting point that relates to the question about why Utes are popular in Australia when it comes to business.

I realised that Utes are classified as “commercial vehicles” so they receive much better tax treatment than a Car or SUV.

if you own a car or SUV you are limited to claiming 5000 kms per year or filling out a log book , and you can’t claim personal use and you are subject to Fringe Benefits Tax.

So from a Tax perspective, if you own a business or have a salary package that includes vehicle you are much better of with a UTE, than a car If you plan on using it for a lot of personal things.


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Commercial vehicle have always been and continue to be exempt from the all singing all powerful emission standards released yesterday that will be a win win for everyone according to the government.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

I agree with the boss of Airbus, when he said that the ultimate argument for green energy is that.

”The more we use fossil fuels, the more expensive they will get over time, however the more we use green technologies the cheap it will get over time”

Even if you don’t Believe in Climate Change, eventually We have to move away from fossil fule anyway, especially if we want to raise another couple of billion peoples standard of living.

That is the crux of the matter and what was said in the future of energy thread, with anything finite, eventually you have to run out, therefore the change over to renewables is a forgone conclusion.
The main problem we are facing is, rather than being a controlled orderly transition led by technical analysis, it appears to a politically driven transition being led by ideology and wishful thinking.

 

[Value Collector]

Commercial vehicle have always been and continue to be exempt from the all singing all powerful emission standards released yesterday that will be a win win for everyone according to the government.
Mick

Yep, and as I said the Tax laws give them a huge edge.

So next time just remember these facts when people say “so why did utes sell so well” the answer is obviously -

“Well there is certain applications that suit utes because they are obviously very useful vehicles, but also the tax code is written in a way that causes some people to choose them even if other vehicles would be more appropriate“

 

[mullokintyre]

Yep, and as I said the Tax laws give them a huge edge.

So next time just remember these facts when people say “so why did utes sell so well” the answer is obviously -

“Well there is certain applications that suit utes because they are obviously very useful vehicles, but also the tax code is written in a way that causes some people to choose them even if other vehicles would be more appropriate“

Yes, and you could say exactly the same thing about EV's.
They get subsidies at both state and federal level, and they benefit the wealthier in that they can afford to take out the advantage of vovated leases.
the market has always been distorted by government intervention.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

Yes, and you could say exactly the same thing about EV's.
They get subsidies at both state and federal level, and they benefit the wealthier in that they can afford to take out the advantage of vovated leases.
the market has always been distorted by government intervention.
Mick

yeah, I agree its probably part of the reason EV’s have risen to the top of the car category. But, that does nothing to take away from the fact that Utes would Be generating added sales due to their tax treatment.

But, I was simply pointing out the answer to the question raised by Sir Rumpole a while back when he asked why Utes were still more popular in busines settings than cars, As I said the simple is their usefulness + the better tax treatment.

In fact I have just realised of the 3 Ute owners we have in our family only 1 would have their Utes if it wasn’t for the tax treatment.

 

[Logique2]

I can't afford $90k for a new car.
Nor $10k to re-wire my carport for e-charging.

So what has saving the planet from the dreaded carbon (dioxide, plant food), done for me?

Except put me off the road?

 

[Craton]

3. it probably is viable, you might just have a bunch of misconceptions, what about you life do you think makes an EV unviable for you?

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll be more specific.

Based in far west NSW, business wise we cover an area approx. 300km in RADIUS, furtherest is over 500km one way.
So with EV, the biggest factor is range, then charging times.
Need the vehicle/s in-situ as service parts, tools etc are needed on hand and not at some distant charging station.
Maybe in years to come, the sites that we service will have charging stations but until then EV is not a viable option.

Power in our remote area isn't 100% reliable either, let alone having a EV charger available.
I'd suppose you'd suggest carting one of these home chargers around with me?

Now charging times. What's the fastest charging time?
20mins to over 40hrs according to cars.com and there are so many charging viables to take into account.
From cars.com:

Why Do These Numbers Vary?​

A number of variables affect how quickly you can charge an EV. The most important factor will be the vehicle’s maximum charging rate — not the charging equipment’s power delivery. The vehicle’s maximum charging rate dictates how much power the vehicle can receive; an EV could have a maximum charging rate of 240 kW, for example, and not be able to accept the 350 kW the charging station delivers.

Additional factors include battery capacity (measured in kilowatt-hours), how efficient the EV is, charging hardware, temperature, battery health and more. We’ve broken charging details down in a number places: our EV buying guide; our home charging explainer; and our EV charging primer. We also have an entire EV glossary to help get you up to speed.

When time is money, in the cut throat world of contracts and competition, nope not good enough. Not going to change logistics currently in place to dabble with EVs and yes, I've looked into/researched EV use for our situation.
From my POV, EV is simply not exceptable for my micro business.
You'll note of course that any downtime also means less kms travelled and longer travel times which leads to diminishing margins.
Perhaps we should make the client pay for the downtime?

Oh, I know the solution!
We'll just tow a ICE powered electric generator!

No, I'm not prepared to pay for the cost of such an EV beast. Oh, and what's this, DC fast charging lowers battery life?
Again from cars.com:

DC Fast Charging​

If we’re honest, even DC fast charging, which includes Tesla Supercharging, isn’t fast when compared with pumping gasoline into a tank.

Then there's this:

DC fast charging certainly seems attractive, but it comes with downsides. For one thing, most automakers say either explicitly or hidden in their owner’s manuals that frequent DC fast charging will diminish the battery pack’s longevity. In our experience, even manufacturers that don’t issue such a warning won’t claim that their components are immune; they merely account for it in warranty coverage.

On the personal front, to visit my families in Adelaide again over 500kms away, my diesel guzzler can get there on one tank of dino fuel with plenty to spare.
Thus enroute, don't need to have any downtime, certainly not for refuelling anyways.
That is what I'd expect from an EV.

You'll probably say I'm just being pig headed, an old dinosaur (which I am) and you're probably right but, until the day comes when every parking space has EV charging capability in every location in Australian well, you can draw your own conclusions on my stance on owning EVs.

Suffice to say, I may be an early adopter of new tech but EV isn't and won't be on that list.

 

[Logique2]

EVs are a fantasy indulgence of rich elites in the city.

Me, I'm holding on to my petrol Corolla. Enabling me to boil the planet, and cause massive species extinction.

In my Corolla, tootling up to the shops.

 

[Craton]

Re: User pays, from the NSW govt. Electric Vehicle Strategy.
Like Victoria, has this been or will it be tossed out?

Introducing a distance-based road user charge (RUC) for eligible EVs of 2.5c/km (indexed to CPI) from 1 July 2027 or when EVs reach 30% of new vehicle sales, whichever comes first.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think hybrids are a reasonable compromise until the charging stations become more established (which they will).

Legislation is gradually going to drive ICE vehicles off the road whether we like it or not, so we might as well face the future with a smile as someone once said.

 

[JohnDe]

I can't afford $90k for a new car.
Nor $10k to re-wire my carport for e-charging.

So what has saving the planet from the dreaded carbon (dioxide, plant food), done for me?

Except put me off the road?

Why do you need to spend $10,000 to re-wire the carport?

I’m using the original 10A plug in my carport to trickle charge the Tesla, have done so since July 2021. I plug it in 3 or 4 times a week, never had an issue.

 

[Value Collector]

I can't afford $90k for a new car.
Nor $10k to re-wire my carport for e-charging.

So what has saving the planet from the dreaded carbon (dioxide, plant food), done for me?

Except put me off the road?

Just buy a petrol car then, wait until things get cheaper. but why can’t you put a charger in your car port? They can be put outside on a pole, they don’t even need to be under cover.

my Tesla didn’t cost $90k by the way It was about $20k cheaper than that, and there are cheaper options.

 

[Value Collector]

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll be more specific.

Based in far west NSW, business wise we cover an area approx. 300km in RADIUS, furtherest is over 500km one way.
So with EV, the biggest factor is range, then charging times.
Need the vehicle/s in-situ as service parts, tools etc are needed on hand and not at some distant charging station.
Maybe in years to come, the sites that we service will have charging stations but until then EV is not a viable option.

Power in our remote area isn't 100% reliable either, let alone having a EV charger available.
I'd suppose you'd suggest carting one of these home chargers around with me?

Now charging times. What's the fastest charging time?
20mins to over 40hrs according to cars.com and there are so many charging viables to take into account.
From cars.com:

When time is money, in the cut throat world of contracts and competition, nope not good enough. Not going to change logistics currently in place to dabble with EVs and yes, I've looked into/researched EV use for our situation.
From my POV, EV is simply not exceptable for my micro business.
You'll note of course that any downtime also means less kms travelled and longer travel times which leads to diminishing margins.
Perhaps we should make the client pay for the downtime?

Oh, I know the solution!
We'll just tow a ICE powered electric generator!

No, I'm not prepared to pay for the cost of such an EV beast. Oh, and what's this, DC fast charging lowers battery life?
Again from cars.com:


Then there's this:


On the personal front, to visit my families in Adelaide again over 500kms away, my diesel guzzler can get there on one tank of dino fuel with plenty to spare.
Thus enroute, don't need to have any downtime, certainly not for refuelling anyways.
That is what I'd expect from an EV.

You'll probably say I'm just being pig headed, an old dinosaur (which I am) and you're probably right but, until the day comes when every parking space has EV charging capability in every location in Australian well, you can draw your own conclusions on my stance on owning EVs.

Suffice to say, I may be an early adopter of new tech but EV isn't and won't be on that list.

Well then yeah in your extreme case maybe stick to petrol cars for the next few years.

charging times aren’t as big a deal as you think, you charge at home at night, and for most people never have to charge away from the house.

if you do end up doing 400 kms+ in day, you stop for 10mins just to add enough to get home and do a full charge at home, you don’t have to sit at a charger waiting for it to go to 100%, you just need enough to get home.

its the same on a road trip, you need to stop to pee, so you plug in charge for a few minutes and keep driving, you don’t wait for 100%.

I do Sydney - Brisbane route a couple of times a year, it takes me no longer than the petrol car used to. Instead of having to fuel up at the start like I would with the petrol car, I start with a full battery about 3 hours into the drive we stop for a pee break and 15 mins charging, then drive for another 3 hours by then it’s lunch time the so plug in grab lunch, keep driving then one more 20 min stop some where gets us to north of Sydney Where the family is. most people need to make at least 2 fuel stops to do that trip eg one at start and one somewhere near the end to fuel up again, it to mention food and drink.

i really think that once you see an EV in the hands of a real user and not a cyclical talking head on the internet you will change your mind about a lot of the things.

 

[Value Collector]

@Logique2

Here is what I mean, you don’t need to rewrite your whole car port, you can actually install a stand alone charger anywhere you want.

you can even have an 18 foot cable on it if you like.

 

[Value Collector]

Re: User pays, from the NSW govt. Electric Vehicle Strategy.
Like Victoria, has this been or will it be tossed out?

Yep they were all tossed out.

States are not allowed to charge the Tax. The fuel excise they say they want to replace is a federal tax, The states were just trying to cash grab.

The States charge for vehicle registration, which EV’s already pay, they really have no right to try and charge additional amounts.

There are four main ways roads are funded

1. Local government rates - EV owners pay already.

2. Vehicle Rego - Ev owners pay that already

3. Tolls - Ev owners pay that already

4. Fuel excise - Ev’s don’t pay this but they do pay GST on electricity they purchase. Fuel excise is a federal tax and up to the federal government to decide not states, for the moment they are choosing not to tax EV’s because of the other benefits worth incentivising eg. Lower air pollution, less green house gases, etc etc

 

[qldfrog]

That is the crux of the matter and what was said in the future of energy thread, with anything finite, eventually you have to run out, therefore the change over to renewables is a forgone conclusion.
The main problem we are facing is, rather than being a controlled orderly transition led by technical analysis, it appears to a politically driven transition being led by ideology and wishful thinking.

Why would green energy be different from fossil fuels if it relies on lithium batteries, and especially if as mentioned before in the power grid thread, a kw of solar or wind energy with backed up lithium battery in australia is in a lifetime causing more c02 than burning said fossil fuel.
Wonder why the ABC did not like highlight that study...
Back to:
as long as it takes more than 1kw of burning oil/coal/gas to produce 1kw of Green energy on the grid, what is the point? And where is the sustainability?
Better off burning less oil/coal directly
Over all that, the real issue is real world and facts/science vs dreamy simplistic not to say idiotic " I power my Tesla from green energy so I do not need fossil fuel"
And let's not forget the loss of going from power to battery then back to power.there are plenty of..but solar is free/illimited at 1pm so who cares...
But facts remain there are extra losses and a need to compensate these ...
Even with hydro pumping

 

[qldfrog]

I think hybrids are a reasonable compromise until the charging stations become more established (which they will).

Legislation is gradually going to drive ICE vehicles off the road whether we like it or not, so we might as well face the future with a smile as someone once said.

It is called getting fxxxed in the ass and bending further.
you can also vote .we are not yet in the US of A and I want to believe votes still count, as per the Voice

 

[Smurf1976]

States are not allowed to charge the Tax. The fuel excise they say they want to replace is a federal tax, The states were just trying to cash grab.

There was a fuss about that years ago since historically the states did collect excise as well and it was deemed unconstitutional. The "fix" was the federal government hiked the excise and gave the money to the states.

That said, a certain side of politics will argue that anything without a specific tax on it is subsidised. That's the "diesel subsidy" argument - there's no actual subsidy, just a lack of road tax for non-road uses.

 

[Value Collector]

Why would green energy be different from fossil fuels if it relies on lithium batteries, and especially if as mentioned before in the power grid thread, a kw of solar or wind energy with backed up lithium battery in australia is in a lifetime causing more c02 than burning said fossil fuel.
Wonder why the ABC did not like highlight that study...
Back to:
as long as it takes more than 1kw of burning oil/coal/gas to produce 1kw of Green energy on the grid, what is the point? And where is the sustainability?
Better off burning less oil/coal directly
Over all that, the real issue is real world and facts/science vs dreamy simplistic not to say idiotic " I power my Tesla from green energy so I do not need fossil fuel"
And let's not forget the loss of going from power to battery then back to power.there are plenty of..but solar is free/illimited at 1pm so who cares...
But facts remain there are extra losses and a need to compensate these ...
Even with hydro pumping

green energy is different from fossil fuels because you recycle batteries and reuse the elements, the fossil fuels once consumed are gone.

The people that say you have to throw the battery out after 5 years so it’s more polluting are just wrong, the materials will be endlessly recycled and the 2nd generation made of recycled materials have basically no impact.

Also not all green energy storage relies on batteries, pumped hydro for example and who knows what battery and storage ideas continue to pop up in the future.

the losses of storage are very low, about 5%-10% depending on technology, that’s much less than you lose just to move and refine oil from an oil field to a petrol bowser, and then you lose 70% of the petrol as heat when you burn it in your car.

 

[SirRumpole]

It is called getting fxxxed in the ass and bending further.
you can also vote .we are not yet in the US of A and I want to believe votes still count, as per the Voice

Fossil fuels won't last forever and as they run out we will be increasingly dependent on overseas sources for liquid fuels.

Electricity we can produce ourselves, sure there are downsides to everything but EV's will dominate the market inside 20 years, like it or not.