Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Indeed, overall, one area seems to be fully missed by the EV pushers: the suitability of EVs to collapsing states/society.
Not to start raising political **** but EVs suitability in China, Singapore or Switzerland vs the same technology and cars in Paris suburbs, RSA townships or LA housing estate
Keep dreaming.. When kms of copper are stolen overnight along the inner rings road of Paris or thousands cars burnt in nye celebrations, what do you think happen to your free access unmanned recharging stations or street charging cables?
EVs increase complexity and reduce robustness of the system, be it technological , social or economic.
Consider yourself to be lucky for the time being in Australia, but do not live in Disneyland /Lalaland
I am convinced EVs will not replace ICE,s nor is the push done for that, no one will have 2 or 3 cars, farm, buggy, tractor in a household switch from ICE to EVs, you might share a fleet of EV ubers/taxis and a few wealthy people..by large, readers of the ASF , will own their own..but that is all you can have for the next 2 decades, and only in countries where society remains strong.
Anyway, hydrogen..which can be different EV is moving ahead..and no-one bothering about synfuels ..that is an area I would invest in on the share market

You rely on an long international supply chain to fuel your car, at risk of international politics.

I charge my EV from solar on my roof.

which system is more robust?

 

[Value Collector]

Most People don’t realise how much electricity is used to Pump and refine the Oil used to make their petrol.

So if @qldfrog if you are worried about electricity Infrastructure affecting your ability to fuel your car, you should be more worried about your petrol car.

BP in their own annual report said that 10% of their carbon emissions come from electricity they purchase.

check out this video of the break down of how much electricity it takes to produce your petrol and diesel.

 

[sptrawler]

Polestar sounds like it is being given a wake up call.

Volvo to stop funding Polestar, may sell its shares to China's Geely

Volvo has hand-balled the job of funding of Polestar to parent company Geely.

www.drive.com.au

Volvo is preparing to cut financial ties with its own electric-car spin-off – and sell much of its 48 per cent share to parent company Geely – as Polestar misses its sales targets and continues to lose money.
Polestar was previously Volvo's performance-car division – similar to BMW M or Mercedes-AMG – until it was spun off to become an electric-car brand in 2017.
However in the years since it has been placed on a collision course with Volvo – which is now set to go electric by the end of the decade – and last year Polestar missed its sales target of 60,000 cars, itself slashed from a goal of 80,000 set at the start of the year.
Polestar says it requires about $US1.3 billion ($AU2 billion) in "expected external funding" to break even and pull it out of the red, but it will not come from Volvo.
The Swedish car maker has announced "full operational and financial support" for Polestar will be provided by Geely – the Chinese giant which owns most of Volvo – to allow Volvo to focus on its own electric-car rollout.

 

[Craton]

You would be silly if you didn’t think reducing the numbers of cars burning petrol and diesel in our cities wouldn’t improve air quality and health.

Agreed and saw this first hand whilst living in literally, the big smoke of Sydney from '81 to '91. The transition to unleaded fuel made a huge difference to air quality. So too the transition to low sulpher diesel.

Water quality of the Parramatta River improved a great deal as well over that time period as society became more aware of the harm we humans, are causing to the planet that sustains us.

yes there is bush fires but they don’t happen every day like car exhaust, and coal power plants add to air pollution but they are away from the population and are already being phased out.

Absolutely and thankfully bush fires aren't a daily event!
Of course the city demographic creates a great deal of pollution that impacts not just on air quality and respiratory health.

yes EV’s can catch fire, but they are less likely to catch fire than petrol cars. and it’s not like putting out petrol car fires is a big use of our water Resources.

I think you meant EV not petrol cars?
Anyway, any fire and its mitigation adds pollutates into our environment and uses that precious H2O.

And who knows maybe in 5 years battery technology changes and battery fires are It even a thing anymore.

That would be nice and making an EV something I'd consider.
No withstanding battery replacement costs, the driving range and especially charging times need to be comparable to what this bushie has from my current diesel ICE vehicle, untill then an EV will never grace my garage.

FWIW.
I understand you are a strong advocate of EV and have your own energy solution and kudos for that.
As you know, we are not all equal and not everyone has the area required for solar panels and/or storage battery etc. There'd certainly be a demographic that wouldn't have the financial resouces even if they wanted to be part of the Green Transition.

Yes I can see how an EV has less of a footprint in and of itself.
From my POV with the infrastucture rollout, the components and materials required to manufacture an EV, I'm still not convinced EVs are as environmentally friendly as we are lead to believe.

In fact I see the current push to EV as a short sighted solution, one might say a misdirection away from even bigger and much more longer term problems.
I do concede it's an acknowledgement and a start on the road (pun intended) to lowering our footprint upon our fellow brothers and sisters and to Mother Earth.

 

[Value Collector]

In fact I see the current push to EV as a short sighted solution, one might say a misdirection away from even bigger and much more longer term problems.
I do concede it's an acknowledgement and a start on the road (pun intended) to lowering our footprint upon our fellow brothers and sisters and to Mother Earth.

Never let perfection be the enemy of good.

EV’s aren’t perfect, but they don’t have to be, they just have to better than petrol cars in the situations they are being used, and they will continue to get better.

 

[Craton]

Never let perfection be the enemy of good.

EV’s aren’t perfect, but they don’t have to be, they just have to better than petrol cars in the situations they are being used, and they will continue to get better.

That's my point, EV's obviously aren't at the peak of the technology but moreso, are not as good as we are lead to believe.

A couple of articles that piqued my interest.
11 Jan 2023 Earth Org on The Environmental Impact of Battery Production for Electric Vehicles

Re. Water usage (my bold):

Furthermore, producing one tonne of lithium (enough for ~100 car batteries) requires approximately 2 million tonnes of water, which makes battery production an extremely water-intensive practice. In light of this, the South American Lithium triangle consisting of Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, experienced heavy water depletion due to intensive lithium extraction in the area. In Chile alone, 65% of the region’s water was used for lithium extraction. The US state of Nevada recently saw protests on account of the Lithium Americas Project due to the prophesied use of enormous quantities of groundwater.

Nickel and cobalt have similar reputations. Satellite analysis in Cuba has shown a devoid of life in over 570 hectares of land and contamination of over 10 kilometres of coastline where nickel and cobalt mines are present. The Philippines had to shut down 23 mines, many producing nickel and cobalt, because of the environmental degradation that it caused.

16 Feb 2023 Earth Org on Why Electric Cars Are Better for the Environment

The salient point from the last article:

EO’s Position: The electrification of vehicles is undoubtedly a crucial part of the net-zero equation. While it is good to boost electric cars, in order to make a difference, we will need to electrify the whole transport sector. To make sure that EVs can be implemented as a strategy to reach carbon neutrality, governments will need to address some of the issues that the sector still has by developing strong mining and battery disposal regulations. While the production of electric vehicles is still very much in its infancy when compared to gas engines, with the right policies, its role in decarbonisation will become increasingly pivotal.

 

[Value Collector]

That's my point, EV's obviously aren't at the peak of the technology but moreso, are not as good as we are lead to believe.

A couple of articles that piqued my interest.
11 Jan 2023 Earth Org on The Environmental Impact of Battery Production for Electric Vehicles

Re. Water usage (my bold):


16 Feb 2023 Earth Org on Why Electric Cars Are Better for the Environment

The salient point from the last article:

Electric Cars may not be the peak of technology, but they are certainly better than petrol cars.

Watch this short video, all the links to the science mentioned in the video is in the description.

Yes, getting the battery materials has an impact, but it is less than the life time impact of a petrol car, and those battery materials can be reused and recycled, so it is a moot point.

 

[sptrawler]

A vood article on the state of play with EV's, also it highlights that Australia show pursue battery manufacturing, rather than EVmanufacturing IMO.
The big market for Australia, will be the grid based, battery manufacturing, again only my opinion.

The West’s humiliating electric car climbdown has begun

Ambitious plans for an electrification-led industrial revolution are in full-scale retreat

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Value Collector]

also it highlights that Australia (should)pursue battery manufacturing, rather than EVmanufacturing IMO.
The big market for Australia, will be the grid based, battery manufacturing, again only my opinion.

it’s happening in a pretty big way already, just not chemical batteries, there are big moves to significantly increase the pumped hydro storage.

Queensland invests $14 Billion in Pumped Hydro Project.

 

[sptrawler]

it’s happening in a pretty big way already, just not chemical batteries, there are big moves to significantly increase the pumped hydro storage.

Queensland invests $14 Billion in Pumped Hydro Project.

Yes we have been discussing it in the energy thread, that you started back in 2015.

Over here in W.A, battery installations are happening in a big way, as our topography isn't overly suited to hydro.

Also as we have all the battery minerals here, it does lend itself to battery manufacturing, if it is going to happen in a significant scale in Australia at all.

Jeez just looked at my last post, done on the phone while at the Country Week Basketball, that is some seriously bad spelling.

 

[Sdajii]

You rely on an long international supply chain to fuel your car, at risk of international politics.

I charge my EV from solar on my roof.

which system is more robust?

If either your personal solar setup or the international supply chain was going to fail, I'd happily bet on your individual personal setup being far more likely.

Sure, you can fix your own system if it fails, but hey, if the international energy system fails, you're living in a post apocalyptic world and won't be merrily driving around in your EV anyway.

Are we speaking dishonest rhetoric or believing our own gaslighting here?

 

[Captain_Chaza]

Is it true that ~2 million US Telstra cars are being recalled for servicing updates ???

 

[IFocus]

If either your personal solar setup or the international supply chain was going to fail, I'd happily bet on your individual personal setup being far more likely.

Sure, you can fix your own system if it fails, but hey, if the international energy system fails, you're living in a post apocalyptic world and won't be merrily driving around in your EV anyway.

Are we speaking dishonest rhetoric or believing our own gaslighting here?

Actually the fuel supply risk to Australia is high if not very high (realistically its extreme) reserves at around 20 to 30 days to disrupt that wouldn't take much.

 

[Value Collector]

If either your personal solar setup or the international supply chain was going to fail, I'd happily bet on your individual personal setup being far more likely.

Sure, you can fix your own system if it fails, but hey, if the international energy system fails, you're living in a post apocalyptic world and won't be merrily driving around in your EV anyway.

Are we speaking dishonest rhetoric or believing our own gaslighting here?

I am still connected to the Australian electrical grid, if my personal solar system setup fails, and that’s not effected by international Geo politics.

But if you read the conversation, Qld Frog was saying EV’s are at risk because society breaking down and people stealing electrical wires.

Now look at the likely hood of which system is likely to be affected by society breaking down and see who is gas lighting.

to fuel your petrol car you need international politics to be calm. with Electricity you are not as reliant on long international supply chains and dictators. my point was you can ev make your own electricity.

 

[Value Collector]

Is it true that ~2 million US Telstra cars are being recalled for servicing updates ???

Yes, weeks ago, but it was just an over the air software update, mine had been done before I even saw the News.

Media like to beat things up a fair bit, most Tesla “re-calls” don’t require the car to be actually recalled, it’s usually a software update, but still legally called a recall, so the media like to blast that in the headlines.

 

[Sdajii]

I am still connected to the Australian electrical grid, if my personal solar system setup fails, and that’s not effected by international Geo politics.

But if you read the conversation, Qld Frog was saying EV’s are at risk because society breaking down and people stealing electrical wires.

Now look at the likely hood of which system is likely to be affected by society breaking down and see who is gas lighting.

to fuel your petrol car you need international politics to be calm. with Electricity you are not as reliant on long international supply chains and dictators. my point was you can ev make your own electricity.

The whole topic is moot; if the electricity grid or the global supply chain of liquid hydrocarbon fuel goes down, all you're worried about is how much tinned food, guns and ammo you have and how much you can trust the people you're bunkered down with. Hey, this might be more likely in the nearish future than most people think, but either way, there's no sense in worrying about whether it's more likely the world is going to be completely destroyed by nukes or an asteroid in terms of working out what shirt is best to wear to protect you.

I was just commenting on your assertion that your own solar system is more robust than the international supply chain, which it absolutely positively is not. Sure, you can just use the grid as a backup for your car (no doubt you already do on cloudy days), but that wasn't relevant to the claim you made.

I must admit, I didn't read the part of the conversation where there were concerns about people stealing electrical wires, and indeed, if we lost the electricity grid we'd have all sort of issues; losing the internet alone would be far beyond what current day society could handle (and there are several ways that could go down, both natural and human-induced, and we are indeed extremely vulnerable in that way).

 

[Value Collector]

The whole topic is moot; if the electricity grid or the global supply chain of liquid hydrocarbon fuel goes down, all you're worried about is how much tinned food, guns and ammo you have and how much you can trust the people you're bunkered down with. Hey, this might be more likely in the nearish future than most people think, but either way, there's no sense in worrying about whether it's more likely the world is going to be completely destroyed by nukes or an asteroid in terms of working out what shirt is best to wear to protect you.

I was just commenting on your assertion that your own solar system is more robust than the international supply chain, which it absolutely positively is not. Sure, you can just use the grid as a backup for your car (no doubt you already do on cloudy days), but that wasn't relevant to the claim you made.

I must admit, I didn't read the part of the conversation where there were concerns about people stealing electrical wires, and indeed, if we lost the electricity grid we'd have all sort of issues; losing the internet alone would be far beyond what current day society could handle (and there are several ways that could go down, both natural and human-induced, and we are indeed extremely vulnerable in that way).

My original comment needs to be read in the context to the comment I was replying to.

My point is simple, Compared to the risk Australia has of having petrol supplies **** down or slowed due to external forces is much higher than having our electricity supply stopped. I understand you need to read between the line to understand my comment.

1. We can make our own electricity at home, no one is making their own petrol.

2. We can charge from the grid, if the grid goes down your petrol bowsers are working anyway.

3. If for some reason petrol was available but the grid was down, we can use the petrol to charge our car using a generator.

But as I said my comment was just trying to point out that petrol supplies are not that robust in a world in turmoil Sometimes, but electricity supply is far more local.

 

[Smurf1976]

Actually the fuel supply risk to Australia is high if not very high (realistically its extreme) reserves at around 20 to 30 days to disrupt that wouldn't take much.

As of November 2023, days of consumption held in storage within Australia:

Crude oil for refining = 49 days. Noting that only about a quarter of petroleum fuels used in Australia are locally refined.

LPG = 80 days

Automotive petrol = 23
*Aviation gasoline = 134
*Aviation turbine fuel = 19
Diesel = 21
**Fuel oil = 48
Lubricants, greases etc = 63
***Other products = 279 days of total volume, will vary hugely by individual products.

Total volume across all products = 26 days

*Regarding aviation fuels, gasoline is what small planes use whilst aviation turbine fuel is the overwhelming majority of aviation fuel and what large aircraft use. For most of the general public, you'll never have been on any plane that wasn't powered by aviation turbine fuel.

**Fuel oil - used in ships, industry etc.

***Other products - chemicals, minor fuels, industrial oils, bitumen, etc. Stock holding will vary hugely depending on what product and what location.

So it's basically about 3 weeks for the big three - diesel, petrol and aviation turbine fuel, that comprise the bulk of consumption and where any shortage would have the most immediate impact.

Above is all from official Australian Government data.

 

[qldfrog]

I am still connected to the Australian electrical grid, if my personal solar system setup fails, and that’s not effected by international Geo politics.

But if you read the conversation, Qld Frog was saying EV’s are at risk because society breaking down and people stealing electrical wires.

Now look at the likely hood of which system is likely to be affected by society breaking down and see who is gas lighting.

to fuel your petrol car you need international politics to be calm. with Electricity you are not as reliant on long international supply chains and dictators. my point was you can ev make your own electricity.

My dear VC,
Stealing cable and break down of society to the point of being unable to charging cars in public spaces or in the street does not require a Mad Max world.
It is now in South Africa, Paris suburbs and half of inner city, main cities in France, most parts of UK key cities ,most of Africa and I would dare say a lot of US cities. Gas lighting?
Just need to travel outside of cruises and DisneyWorld
Yesterday a 70y old grannie got stabbed to death in a Redbank car park by a new import..it is coming ..I do not see why in 20y, Australia will be different from the EU as a society: same causes, same results
Until you can match the speed of fuel refill for EV, it will remain a major issue which will become more and more critical
And I would think if we have no more petrols at the pumps, you will certainly not be cruising around with your EV for long, recharged or not
PS but I agree on the abysmal state of Australian fuel reserves....

 

[qldfrog]

As of November 2023, days of consumption held in storage within Australia:

Crude oil for refining = 49 days. Noting that only about a quarter of petroleum fuels used in Australia are locally refined.

LPG = 80 days

Automotive petrol = 23
*Aviation gasoline = 134
*Aviation turbine fuel = 19
Diesel = 21
**Fuel oil = 48
Lubricants, greases etc = 63
***Other products = 279 days of total volume, will vary hugely by individual products.

Total volume across all products = 26 days

*Regarding aviation fuels, gasoline is what small planes use whilst aviation turbine fuel is the overwhelming majority of aviation fuel and what large aircraft use. For most of the general public, you'll never have been on any plane that wasn't powered by aviation turbine fuel.

**Fuel oil - used in ships, industry etc.

***Other products - chemicals, minor fuels, industrial oils, bitumen, etc. Stock holding will vary hugely depending on what product and what location.

So it's basically about 3 weeks for the big three - diesel, petrol and aviation turbine fuel, that comprise the bulk of consumption and where any shortage would have the most immediate impact.

Above is all from official Australian Government data.

And we are buying fighter jets and billions of submarines..so sad