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Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.7%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.4%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 38 19.2%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.6%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    198
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My wife plugged in the Tesla when she got home from work yesterday, remaining charge was 23%. The settings are set so that charging starts at 9pm at 10A, however, last night I dropped it to 6A to see how much charge would be transferred. 52%, equivalent to half a tank, more than enough to drive to work & back as well as driving to our holiday home if we wanted. Due to commitments, we won't be going away until Saturday afternoon, and so we will charge tonight at 10A.




On a side note, the Tesla app allows access to several of the vehicle's cameras. It also records any incidents, such as someone trying to break in, scratch paintwork, vehicle accidents, etc. this does use power but is minimal.

 
I just want to demonstrate that while yes EV can replace some usages, we can not ,never match a 5 or 10 min recharge for another 800km.
It could be done with a battery swap system.but that is not what the preferred technology is, it could also work with an H2 refill and a fuel cell..but once again this is not the chosen path.
You will also note that this slow recharge time is just physics, and different battery technologies will not change that.
But if you have money to throw away and are keen on innovation, showoff or just the acceleration thrill..go ahead
And with a bit more taxes, fees, and taxpayer paid incentives, maybe we will all have to go there when it will make sense $wise at the individual level, costing us as a country an arm and a leg while we will carry on exporting our lng well below market prices in quantities able to power our national ice fleet for the few next hundred years...
 

Fair enough, but there is a reason the LNG powered vehicles did not last long.

My mate was one of the developers of LNG systems, for cars, trucks and buses. The state government and public transport industry started converting to try and start up a new industry. My mate converted quite a few in the late 90's and on. But reliability was an issue, the failure rate of engine components was too high to be viable, increased piston ring and valve wear, overheating in summer, and the variation in the fuel throughout the year was just too much for consumers to accept. And don't forget the compulsory 10 year tank removal for testing and re-commissioning for another 10 years, or the replacement of safety valves and other components.

Eventually the state government and the buses lost interest and LNG died away.

LPG was a cheaper option, but age is always the enemy of gas-powered vehicles. Australia's heat with a fuel that has no cooling affect like petrol or diesel is a killer, and it's not so easy to remove impurities from gas. LPG is dead, petrol stations are removing them.'

Diesel passenger vehicles are on the way out.

Petrol vehicles will be around for a while longer, and battery technology and motor efficiency will continue to improve.

 
qldfrog said:
Knowing a top Tesla 3 battery is 83kwh, to recharge it by 80% requires 65kwh
All agree?
Click to expand...
66.4kWh at 100% efficiency but in practice it won't be 100% efficient so let's say 71.4kWh in total based on 93% efficiency.

To do that in 5 minutes requires 857kW which at 800V and assuming DC so no power factor issues to consider then we get 1071.25 Amps which is getting rather high.

At that current level my concern wouldn't be about the cable so much as it'd be about the connector to the vehicle and separately, protection in the event of a fault or damage.

Regarding the connector, that's pretty serious current to be pushing through what amounts to a plug that's going to be subject to wear, oxidation etc with the result being an increase in resistance and heat produced.

Suffice to say it's doable I don't dispute that, but in practice I doubt we'll see too many consumer facilities with that sort of charging rate. Noting that for most users there's no particular need anyway - someone on a road trip might want fast charging but for the vast majority of users charging at a much lower rate while the vehicle's parked is a simpler and cheaper solution.

Except of course for those who don't have off street parking but that could, in theory at least, be solved with on street chargers.
 
JohnDe said:
Fair enough, but there is a reason the LNG powered vehicles did not last long.
Click to expand...
Vehicle engines I won't claim to know the details of but for larger engines running on gas is no problem.

Plenty of internal combustion driven generating sets at mines, landfills etc running on at best natural gas from a pipeline, at worst poor quality landfill gas, and they're coping with it.

Likewise gas engines on forklifts and other machinery.

So I assume the issues come down to the conversion of an engine that wasn't originally designed for gas and is thus sub-optimal?
 
you are still missing the point. I have been driving to and from Brisbane and Sydney for the last 23 years, whether it’s in a petrol car or an EV you always make atleast 3 stops, eg Pee > lunch > Pee sometimes more, with an EV you just charge during those times, you don’t need to charge to 100%, you give it a boost for 15mins and keep going.

Who drives 800km’s without needing to Pee and grab some food? By the time a petrol driver spends 5 or 10 minutes fueling, moves his car then goes for a pee, then grabs, his coffee or sandwich, the electric car has had its 15-20 minute charge and is back on the road too.

Given that the EV will start will a full battery due to home charging, it can do 400km before needing to make its first stop, as would the petrol car because it can’t home fill so wouldn’t be full at the start, so need to stop pretty early in the trip. As pointed out above both cars would require a stop of 15-20 minutes due to filling and bodily functions, and are ready for another 3-4 hours of driving before the bodily functions kick in again.

As I minimum, in a petrol car going Brisbane to Sydney, you need to make at least 3 stops, maybe more.

Eg.
1, fueling some where near the start because you aren’t full unless you make a special trip before hand.

2, Pee, poop, food drink, stretch legs (whatever)

3, fuel some where near the end

This is basically the same stop cycle as an EV, I can tell you it takes the same time to drive Brisbane to Sydney in my Tesla as it did in my commodore.
 

True, and in that lies the problem. What Australian manufacturer is going to design and build an engine to run on LNG? It won’t happen.

Conversions of existing engines is the only viable option, and that is costly when you have to add the increased maintenance due to running a fuel in an engine not designed for it. Yes it can be done, and for several years the degradation of the engine will be acceptable, but eventually it will fail. First the compression drops, then oil consumption increases. And that’s why mining companies replace their fleet on a regular basis.
 
My EV will not do 400KM on a full charge running at highway speeds. More likely 300KM's.
And given the distance between charging points in the country regions, you want at least 40km up your sleeve for contingency purposes.
My experience mirrors others I know in regional Vic.
Mick
 
Frog was specifically using the long range model 3 in his example which can do 500km, and I was thinking of the Tesla supercharger network (offcourse teslas can also use other chargers too)

But, yeah if you really are concerned about range and charging times as frog seems to be, you should by a long range Tesla or something similar.

But for most people your car would be fine, especially for basic commuting.
 
I will call BS on that.
The long range model will not do 500 km at 110 kmhr, which is highway speed round here.
And that assumes of course you start at 100% fully charged at your 500km end point has a charger at the end.
And of course there is not a lot of hilly country to navigate through.
And the weather is benign, without having to use aircon or heating.
Advertised performance and real world performance are very different.
I tried a model 3, but like so many others of a more "experienced" age, have found that you need to be a contortionist to get in and out.
Horses for courses.
mick
 
Overall, my point is :
Whatever the expected new battery tech, or EV battery size,plugin EV are not physically (sciences) able and never will as fast as an ice.
I personally never eat or have coffee at servos, rarely a wee stop there either and tend to prefer selecting a cafe or stop based on location and food offering more than whether they could plug me for a recharge .
Anyway, EV are not for my lifestyle when touring but hey, plenty of people are happy with servo food here..
And so far even with byd, not a financially sensible option for the runaround second car so my brand new ICE in the garage while my batteries are back fully topped in the house at 1pm daily...so plenty of free power available at the frog did not change the result...
 
I didn’t claim it would do 500km highway driving the number I used in my original post was 400km. But my model 3 comes pretty close to its stated range on the free way, sometimes it does better.

If you want a car that’s easier for you to get in and out off at your age, try the Model Y. It’s built on the model 3 base but is taller and more spacious.

Tesla super chargers are spaced about 200kms apart at most, and on the Sydney to Brisbane route I drive past a couple without stopping, and I have the model 3 with the smallest battery that doesn’t even exist anymore. With the long range 3 stops would be easy, maybe even 2 is possible if you really want to push it.

With a long range you could do.

Leave brisbane
1, charge at coffs
2, charge at heatherbrae
Arrive in Sydney.

That’s pretty similar to a petrol car.
 
I have found the real world driving range of an EV, can vary wildly depending on many factors as Mick says, here is a website of "real" world milage as tested by Inside EV"s which is a pretty good website.
it also shows which cars over estimate the available range and which underestimate the available range.
To convert to km just multiply the miles by 1.609344 as it is a U.S website I assume they are using U.S miles, as opposed to Imperial miles.
With regard the Tesla, the model 3 and model Y's sold in the U.S have a nickel based battery, whereas the Australian one has the Fe based batteries from China, so I would expect them to have less expected range.
But the Teslas do perform well in distance tests, a mate has a model 3 and a Y dual motor LR, I will ask him how it goes for range, I know he has driven the Y to Kal in the last couple of weeks.
I know I drove my Kona on a round trip of 440km the other week, when I left it said I had 470km range, on the way back when I got to Williams it said I had 70km left.
So I stopped and put in $18.50 (30.83kWH) which was the time it took to have a cup of coffee, so I would say that their outcomes are fairly indicative, but like Mick says, A/C, wind, temp, terrain everything affects the range.

The article is well worth a read, for those who are considering buying an EV.

What's The Real World Highway Range Of Today's Electric Cars? We Test To Find Out

We take the most popular electric cars, fully charge them, and then drive them at 70 mph to find out just how far they will go. Which one goes the furthest?
insideevs.com

About EV Range Tests Conducted By InsideEVs​

We want to make it clear our range tests aren't perfect. There are variables simply out of our control like wind, traffic, and weather. However, we do our best to control what we can. We always set the tires to the manufacturer's recommended pressure, crosscheck the speedometer with a GPS for accuracy, charge up to 100 percent and enter the highway either immediately or within a couple of miles. Then we drive at a constant 70 mph and in long loops so we end up basically where we started.

Whenever possible, we repeat the test with a second member of the team on a different course. When we do that, we average the results of the two tests. We also report the temperature and whether we used the heating or cooling during the test, and offer our opinions on how using the climate control system use may have impacted the results.

We realize that a change in temperature as little as 10° F (5.5° C) can have a meaningful effect on an electric car's range. However, these 70 mph range tests are useful because they provide another data point for potential customers who are looking for as much information on driving range as they can get.

EV Range Test Results​

VehiclePriceReal Range (Miles)EPA Range (Miles)DifferenceEfficiency (mi/kWh)
2022 Lucid
Air Dream Edition Range		$169,000500520-4.0%4.30
2022 Mercedes
EQS 450+		$102,310395350+13.0%3.67
2022 BMW
iX xDrive50 w/20" Wheels		$83,200345324+6.5%3.25
2023 Cadillac
Lyriq RWD w/20" Wheels		$62,990330312+5.8%3.15
2021 Tesla
Model 3 AWD		$48,990310353-12.2%4.25
2023 Porsche
Taycan RWD 93 kWh Battery (New Software)		$81,150*305225+35.8%3.66
2021 Tesla
Model S Plaid w/21" Arachnid		$134,490300348-12.0%3.30
2021 Porsche
Taycan RWD 93 kWh Battery		$85,470*293
297		225
225		+30.0%
+32.0%		3.49
3.50
2019 Tesla
Model 3 AWD		$47,990290322-10.0%4.25
2021 Ford
Mustang Mach-E California Route 1 Edition		$50,400287305-6.0%3.30
2023 Ford
Mustang Mach-E Premium AWD Extended Range		$66,295285290-1.7%3.10
2020 Porsche
Taycan 4S 93 kWh		$103,800*278203+36.9%3.32
2020 Tesla
Model Y AWD		$49,990276316-12.7%3.85
2022 Ford
Lightning Lariat Extended Range		$77,474270320-15.6%2.10
2022 Rivian
R1T Large Pack, 20" all-terrain tires		$79,500254314**-19.1%2.03
2021 Porsche
Taycan 4 Cross Turismo 93 kWh Battery		$93,700252215+17.2%3.10
2021 Porsche
Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo 93 kWh Battery		$153,500246204+20.6%2.92
2022 Kia
EV6 GT-Line AWD 20" Wheels		$56,400245274-10.63.30
2022 BMW
i4 M50 w/20" Wheels		$65,900239227+5.3%2.95
2020 Hyundai
Kona EV		$37,190238258-7.8%3.90
2021 Volkswagen
ID.4 First Edition		$43,995234250-6.4%3.00
2022 Hyundai
Ioniq 5 AWD SEL w/19" Wheels		$45,900227256-11.3%3.10
2021 Ford
Mustang Mach-E AWD Std Range		$50,300226211+7.1%3.30
2020 Chevrolet
Bolt EV		$36,620226259-12.7%3.40
2021 Polestar
Polestar 2		$59,990226233-3.1%3.12
2022 Hyundai
Ioniq 5 AWD Limited w/20" Wheels 		$54,500195256-24.0%2.70
2022 Jaguar
I-Pace EV400 w/22" Wheels		$69,900195234-16.7%2.37
2020 Nissan
LEAF SL +		$43,900190215-11.6%3.40
2022 Ford
Lightning Pro Standard Range		$39,974214230-7.0%2.20
2019 Audi
e-tron		$74,800188204-7.9%2.30
2020 Hyundai
Ioniq EV		$33,045171170+0.6%4.50
2019 BMW
i3s BEV		$47,650141153-7.8%3.60
2020 BMW
i3s REx		$51,500126126 0.0%3.50
2020 MINI
Cooper SE		$29,990108110-1.8%3.70
2015 Chevy
Spark EV		$25,9956382-23.2%3.50
2018 smart
Electric Drive		$28,7505157-10.5%3.40
 
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Tesla chargers aren’t normally at Servo’s.

The first stop I make on the way to Sydney is at Ballina, which has a full cafe.

Next is Coffs Harbour which is at a shopping centre with restaurants, cafes, all the takeaway places, but I normally grab a Kebab.

Port Macquarie is at a winery, but I am full of Kebab by then so just stop for a wee, I drive past this one, but it’s a risk with my battery so stop for a few minutes.

Heatherbrae is at a servo, so just a toilet break and some chips and a Coke, then I arrive in Sydney.
 
Over here on the East coast, the Tesla chargers are only about 100km to 200km apart, and there is other brands in between. So you don’t have to stress about range, you just pull into one when you need to stretch your legs and top up for a few minutes.

As I said on the main routes it’s just a matter of stopping on your usual drive rest cycle, especially if you have a long range model.
 
mullokintyre said:
It may come as a bit of shock to you, but there are a lot of people who drive to destinations other than between Sydney and Brisbane.
Mick
Click to expand...
Yeah, but pretty much everywhere is slowly being filled in with chargers. It’s not a fundamental scientific flaw of EV’s as frog is suggesting. If people are having trouble charging it’s just because the network isn’t complete yet.

I doubt the Network of petrol stations was built out in a day either, it just takes time, it’s not a fundamental flaw that won’t be over come.
 

The best range that I have got with my Tesla M3 Long Range was 367km at 110km/h on a cold, wet and windy winters day, arriving at my destination with 11% charge remaining. That was when it was brand new, I'll have to do another test soon.
 
JohnDe said:
The best range that I have got with my Tesla M3 Long Range was 367km at 110km/h on a cold, wet and windy winters day, arriving at my destination with 11% charge remaining. That was when it was brand new, I'll have to do another test soon.
Click to expand...
I'm with you on EV's they suit us and I really can't understand why people have to always be knocking them, if someone doesn't want one fine, I can't understand why they have to tell me why they don't want one.

The wife and I are going to Kal in a couple of weeks, it is costing $100 return each on the Prospector train, why would I take the car and drive 1,200km?
 
Yes I am afraid it needs to be told as everyone taxes are used to favor a technical solution which is actually suitable to only a few , are you not a strong proponent of cheaper housing?
Yet all good to legally prevent ice sales in a near future
So you are ok removing mobility to the unwashed/toothless?
I have nothing against EV, and the day it will make sense $wise, I will get one, recharged on own solar to runaround: shopping, cafe, local trips etc etc.
But I hate when an ideology, not even matched by facts associates EV to a greener better world and governments spend money ..ours as taxpayers..to promote a solution whose only clear end beneficiaries are Mr Xi clique and the rotten mates ..
Moreover, we are fed lies after lies about range, costs, emissions, even future feasibility..no it will not improve significantly
As long as there is no gov involvement and EVs are treated equal to ICEs, with same tax amount raised as when I fill my tank with diesel or E91-98
All good
But asking the government aka the 95% to pay for your recharging stations etc..no thanks..
EV is a great technology but it is not green, probably more polluting overall than an equivalent ice, are definitively more expensive per km and in the same way I do not mind people buying monster trucks or Maseratis if they want to, I would not want to see them forced on us or pushed with my taxes.
 
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