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Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.7%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.4%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 38 19.2%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.6%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    198
Might be more reliable than Russian gas supply though.
There not much reliability in putting more energy/money than you get backbetter by a ton of coal and pile it up
Oil lpg as well but harder to store
Wind is much better in these areas, and obviously hydro which is not yet at 100% coverage
The Southern part of France is another story and there are even solar farm plans over the Mediterranean sea which technically/economically make sense.
Strategically is another matter...
The US might decide to blow the cable next if the EU is not economically gone by then, unless it is Islamic State... confusion in that area,..ask Syrians...
Anyway crazy idea but perfect woke decision
 
According to these solar resource maps, France looks pretty good to me, even the northern areas are similar to Melbourne/Victoria which isn’t as great as Queensland, but still economical and pretty decent.

 
The media has been reporting that the EU is banning ICEV's, but this is not true. The legislation passed by the EU parliament "states that automakers must reduce CO2 emissions from new cars to zero by 2035."


 
In the field of Automobiles, there have been a couple of interesting developments, plus some scary ones.
Firstly, Ford has dumped its shares in Rivian, and taken a 10billion writedown on its investment. (see The driven )
Fords problems continue as it has had to halt production of the F150 on battery issues ( see zero hedge ).
With Tesla stock soaring (and price cuts already hurting competitors' margins), Ford shares are sliding after the carmaker announced that it has paused production and shipments of its electric F-150 Lightning pickup due to a potential battery issue.
And from CNBC
however, despite all this being good for Tesla , it has had its own issues this week.
From Zero hedge
And finally, we get the unsurprisng news that for many Americans, the idea of a new car, whether it be an EV or an ICE engined car , is totally off the radar. from Zero hedge again
Given that most of the EV brands are higher price brackets than many ICE versions, one might expect to see EV vehicles hit somewhat harder.
I would not ve surprised if this was to be replicated in Australia, as the hordes of people critically reactive to housing mortgage rates reassess things.
Mick
 

Your theory sounds plausible, though some of the source info is questionable.

Are insurance registrations a true indicator of sales?

Is it prudent to assess USA new car sales by boxing in all the states into one category?

Goes to show how difficult it is for investors. Do we hold, buy or sell with the news given to us?
 
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This looks good, but it would want to have an extraordinary battery range for countries like ours.

 
We did ask the question as soon as the States suggested it, "how can the States charge a road tax, to cover the cost of loss of fuel excise", when fuel excise is a Federal tax. ?

Well here is the latest update on it, a long read but very important in the context of E.V's, if anyone is interested.


There are just over 83,000 electric vehicles on Australian roads, almost half of them bought in 2022. That number is expected to grow exponentially, with the ACT already planning to ban the sale of new petrol cars in 2035.

An attempt to make these electric car owners pay to drive on public roads has now turned into a high-stakes legal stoush pitting the Commonwealth against the states and territories.

The case, brought by two EV owners, has landed in the High Court. At stake is not only the future of how we pay to use and maintain our roads, but also how states can tax their citizens.
Most motorists don’t know it, but Australia has long had a road tax: the fuel excise levy, which has just gone up from 45 cents to 47 on every litre of petrol. An average driver pays $715 or so a year in fuel excises – but, of course, if your car doesn’t run on petrol, you’re not paying this.

Except in Victoria. There, since July 2021 if you drive an electric car you’ve had to pay for every kilometre you travel – now 2.6 cents – under the first scheme in Australia to get EV owners to pay to use public roads. The average EV driver ends up forking out about $350 a year. And the Andrews government says that’s only fair. NSW and Western Australia plan to impose their own EV road-user charges from 2027.
Now two Victorian EV owners, Chris Vanderstock and Kathleen Davies, have taken the fight to Canberra. They’ve teamed up with climate change law specialists Equity Generation Lawyers to challenge Victoria’s Zero and Low Emission Vehicle Distance-based Charge Act in the High Court.
The federal government intervened in the case to support Vanderstock and Davies. All the other states and territories back Victoria. It’s not so much David and Goliath as states versus feds. That’s a big stoush, and it could have far-reaching consequences.

“It’s not really about the electric vehicle charge,” says Monash University constitutional law professor Luke Beck. “The broader and more important issue is about the full scope of the states’ ability to raise taxation revenue.”
Section 90 of the Constitution says only the Commonwealth has the power to impose excises – but exactly what an excise is has been hotly debated. The High Court has taken various positions over the years, in cases over state and territory licences to sell alcohol, cigarettes and, in one case against the ACT, pornographic videotapes.
In the landmark 1997 case Ha v New South Wales, the court decided (four judgments to three) that NSW tobacco licensing fees were unconstitutional because they were partly calculated on the volume of cigarettes sold, and a tax on volume is an excise. This stopped the states from taxing not only tobacco but alcohol and petrol too. That was a big blow to states’ ability to fill their own coffers.

Beck says the question has lain dormant until now: states have been less inclined to impose goods-related taxes since the federal government introduced a GST in 2000 – the states and territories get the revenue from this 10 per cent tax on goods and services. A Victorian win could clear the way for states to impose new taxes on the use of goods, he says. “It opens up potentially billions of dollars of additional revenue sources for the state.”
The EV case was heard by a full bench of the High Court (seven justices) over three days in Canberra this week. Victoria is arguing its EV charge is not an excise because it is levied on an activity – driving – and not on goods.
But Commonwealth Solicitor-General Stephen Donaghue told the court that any potential EV buyer would be influenced by the knowledge they would have to pay the road user charge, which distorted the market, just like a tax. “If we think the tendency of the tax is to do that ... then it can be an excise in just the same way as a sales tax can be because we do not permit states to distort the national market,” he said. “That is an exclusive power for the Commonwealth.”
Donaghue raised a hypothetical of Australia developing its own hydrogen-powered car industry and imposing federal tariffs on overseas-made models. If the EV charge was valid, it would mean states could “impose taxes to increase the cost of using locally produced ZLEVs [zero and low-emissions vehicles] and therefore work against the tariff policy that the Commonwealth was seeking to put in place,” he said. In other words, even if you take the position that the purpose of section 90 is not so much to constrain states broadly but merely to stop states interfering with federal tariffs, it’s still problematic.
If Victoria’s EV charge is thrown out, it will likely only be a reprieve for those motorists, with the Commonwealth expected to eventually introduce its own “road user charge”.

The federal government collects about $12 billion in fuel excise every year, which covers about a third of the cost of maintaining the nation’s road networks, but that will rapidly disappear if Australia follows the rest of the world and shifts to EVs.

National Transport Research Organisation CEO Michael Caltabiano says Australia urgently needs to find a replacement for fuel excise revenue as EV sales gather speed.
But Caltabiano says there are major complications in replacing a federal tax and funding regime with a patchwork of schemes confined within each state and territory.

“How do you equitably charge access? If we have eight different charging regimes, as you cross borders, what happens?” he says. “These are really complex problems that need to be solved as we move to a zero-emissions fleet, and we haven’t really engaged with the problem holistically.”

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Australian Automobiles Association CEO Michael Bradley says he hopes the High Court case will “clarify which level of government will be tasked with developing a sustainable, equitable transport taxation system that allows governments to fund our roads”.
Victoria’s Solicitor-General lawyer Rowena Orr KC told the High Court this week if the court finds the state’s EV charge invalid, it could jeopardise a raft of other state levies such as those on poker machines, online gambling, ride-share companies and waste disposal.

The state may even lose the ability to impose a road congestion charge, like that used to manage traffic in central London, Orr said. “It is important for your honours to consider the purpose that those imperilled statutes serve and ... the consequences of rendering them invalid.”
Meanwhile, Donaghue told the court that states may be tempted to impose more, similar taxes as improving technology makes it easier for them to track how people use certain goods.

A decision from the court is not expected for at least a couple of months. Anne Twomey, professor of constitutional law at Sydney University, says a decision against Victoria could entrench the “extraordinarily” unbalanced relationship between the states and federal governments to “exacerbate a bad system and make it worse”.

“The Commonwealth has most of the power to collect taxes, whereas the states have most of the responsibility to spend ... and there are arguments about how that is done,” she says. “It’s really about the Commonwealth getting more power over the states and more spending power to then decide how money is spent.”
 
I wonder what’s next, the States might look at bringing in an income tax.
 

I reckon EV owners need a Constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament.
 
I reckon EV owners need a Constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament.
Well our head of state is an EV owner, although I believe some of his love for Ev’s comes from his love of earning income by renting the sea floor to offshore wind farms.

If I earned 15% of any lease anytime a company leased some ocean floor or crown land to building wind farms, I would be wanting to increase electricity demand too, hahaha
 
I reckon EV owners need a Constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament.
The other issue that it highlights is, currently the only money that the Government gets from petrol is excise, gst. and minor taxes.

As we go more toward renewable generation, the State Governments will have to become more directly involved with installing generating and storage capacity into the system, when this happens they will earn money from the charging of E.V's that they don't currently get from the sale of fuel.

So are they going to be a lot worse off, with the loss of fuel excise? I don't think so

Also on the same subject, here is an example of why hybrid E.V's are a huge waste of money and why I chose a full E.V over a hybrid.


Retired schoolteacher David Farrands is on a driving holiday in Tasmania, but every kilometre he travels he's paying a unique tax that only exists in his home state of Victoria.
"It's got a battery that runs for 35 kilometres, which is for keeping the air quality in busy cities clean," he said.

"The philosophy and the concept of the vehicle is perfect for people who go into the city occasionally and don't want to pollute … but then travel as a retiree and need an internal combustion engine."

For Mr Farrands, the tax is about 2 cents for every kilometre he travels.

It does not matter if his car is running on petrol or driving interstate.

For the last year, Mr Farrands's Zero and Low Emission Vehicle (ZLEV) road-user charge came to about $456. He proved the distance he travelled by uploading a photo of his dash to a government website, as all ZLEV users are asked to do.

In the last 12 months, Mr Farrands has spent much of his time travelling – mostly interstate, on longer drives and towing his caravan, meaning his car is running on petrol.

That means on top of the ZLEV charge, Mr Farrands is also contributing tax dollars to the federal government's fuel excise when he tops up at the bowser.

The fuel excise is charged as 47.7 cents per litre of petrol or diesel, a tax intended to raise revenue to improve Australia's road network.

That does not factor in the cost of electricity for powering the vehicle.
"That is just a huge cost… we are paying more than anybody in a polluting car. I just don't get it," he said.

Victoria is currently the only state actively imposing a road-use charge on electric vehicles (EVs), though some states plan to introduce them in the future.

New South Wales will introduce a similar charge when EVs make up 30 per cent of new vehicle sales or in 2027, whichever comes first, while Western Australia also plans to introduce a charge in 2027.
 
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When i have charged at a EV chargepoint where there is a charge per kilowatt hour used (not all of them are free!), there was never any GST charged on the invoice.
If the feds decided to add GST and excise to the EV chargers, they would partially solve the problem.
if even the free ones had to pay an excise, you would see a few more shekels come into the coffers.
If the road tax is allowed and other state follow, it will kill off some of the market for PHEV's.
Having to pay excise and GST when you buy fuel, then still having to pay on a per KM basis because the car is also electric, would piss a few folk off.
Mick
 
Electricity sales are subject to GST, even your home electricity has GST on it, so when you are charging at home (unless from 100% solar in that moment) you will be paying GST.

I am not sure about charge point, but I can’t see why they would be exempt from charging gst.

Even if a person uses solar to charge, the solar installation itself is subject to GST, so there is still tax revenue being generated when people install solar to try and cover some of their charging costs.
 
reading in Weekend Australian
it talks about teslas planned new 25k entry level car
Its still vapour ware, and history has shown that tesla slips a lot in its time predictions (still awaiting the Cybertruck).
But it will have a big advantage in that it will be made in the USA, which is almost mandatory for cars sold in the US these days.

The most interesting part for me was the following about the takeup of sales in other countries.


Britain hit the 5 per cent figure in June 2020.
By December, plug-in electric vehicles accounted for 39 per cent of new auto sales.
Even allowing for the fact that it includes hybrids, that is a stunning figure.
Of course it needs to be sustained over a period of months, even years to make a dent in the overall numbers.


China reached the 5 per cent threshold in 2018. Electric vehicle sales now account for a fifth of the market.
Interesting that China reached the 5% mark two years prior, but has taken longer to get to the 20% share.
One might speculate for days as to the reasons why.
I will leave it up to others to do so.
Mick
 
reading in Weekend Australian
it talks about teslas planned new 25k entry level car

It’s still vapour ware, and history has shown that tesla slips a lot in its time predictions (still awaiting the Cybertruck).
I have a feeling you would have said that about every model Tesla has brought out, but they eventually come. Don’t let delay’s fool you into thinking they won’t get there.

For example I waited 1.5 years longer for the model 3 than I thought I would have too, even @sptrawler thought at one stage the car was never coming and I might lose my deposit, but now the Model 3 is one of the best selling cars in Australia.

The Tesla Semi truck was delayed a long time, but now deliveries have started, next will be the cyber truck.

Teslas design team have finished work on the cyber truck now, and are now working full time on the new vehicle.
 
Electricity sales are subject to GST, even your home electricity has GST on it, so when you are charging at home (unless from 100% solar in that moment) you will be paying GST.

If you charge at home or somewhere else from something other than the grid, eg direct from Solar rooftip, there will be no gst.
I have looked at the three tax invoices issued by EVIE , and all did not have any GST mentioned on it, neither as part of the total or as a separate item.
By law, they are supposed to show the GST component if it is charged, so if there is no component shown, then they are either breaking the law, or there is no charges on electricity used at an EV station.

Mick
 
Do you mean this Evie? Where it says right in their terms an conditions that all prices include GST?

Yes as I said charging from solar does not have GST, but if a cloud comes over or it’s night you will draw from the grid and pay GST.

Solar installations them selves do have GST when you originally pay for them though, so GST of solar output is about $0.003 cents per kilowatt hour over its life, paid upfront when you install the infrastructure.

Evie terms and conditions

 
I still think that Evie is on a knife edge with their billing. I am under that all purchases must show the GST component as a single item. Doesn't really concern me as i don't have a need for it.
 
I still think that Evie is on a knife edge with their billing. I am under that all purchases must show the GST component as a single item. Doesn't really concern me as i don't have a need for it.
I agree, they should definitely state it on their invoices, but Mick was saying he didn’t think they charged GST, but I think they do and just might not state it on receipts.

Maybe there is a loop hole that once you have signed up to a service and become a member the rules are slightly different.
 
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