Electric cars?

[basilio]

A different review of the Leap T03.

 

[JohnDe]

Now this is what I am looking for in EV.

Small but not tiny. Well built. 300k plus range . Enough speed to keep up with the traffic. In production. Current price probably 22-24k for Australia.

Check out the excellent you tube driving review. The company that produces these has more exotic models.

Low-cost electric hatchbacks are finally making a big Leap into the market​

• November 28, 2022
• No comments
• 2 minute read
• Riz Akhtar

View attachment 150002 Source: Leapmotor

Aside from Nissan Leaf, EV hatchbacks have been missing from the Australian EV market. But that may be about to change soon.
Last week, Australia’s first low cost EV hatchback was spotted being tested on the streets of Sydney.

Now the news is surfacing of an EV hatchback brand exporting cars to Israel which looks promising for other markets like Australia.
Leapmotors is a Chinese EV brand that focuses on affordable EVs. Its T03 hatchback has just been launched in Israel after the brand opened its three showrooms in the country.
The T03 is an affordable city hatchback. It’s slightly smaller in length than a Toyota Yaris coming in at:

• 3,620 mm in length
• 1,652 mm in width
• 1,577 mm in height

It’s powered by a 55 kW motor that drives the front wheels and offers 155 Nm of torque which is plenty for inner-city driving.

The motor is fed by a 36.5 kWh battery pack which can deliver up to 300 km of WLTP range.

For a car that costs less than $15,000 AUD in its local market, it offers a 10.1” infotainment screen as well as three outside cameras and twelve radars for level 2 autonomous driving.

This is quite remarkable to see the specifications and what’s included for that price. Even after shipping, local delivery and dealership costs, it could be an EV that’s available in the Australian market for under $22,000.

Low-cost electric hatchbacks are finally making a big Leap into the market

Aside from Nissan Leaf, EV hatchbacks have been missing from the Australian EV market. But that may be about to change soon.

thedriven.io

This evidence of why some of the traditional vehicle manufacturers are going to disappear. Just like what happened to Packard, Studebaker, Leyland, AMC, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, SAAB... the list is long of automobile manufacturers that have disappeared through bankruptcy or taken over by cashed up competition.


The problem this time is that there isn't much competition with the cash to buy a struggling company.

 

[mullokintyre]

I wondered about creating a separate thred for elctric trucks, but decided this was still the thread.
Tesla has (finally) delivered its first EV Semi to pepsi .
fromDrive

The Tesla Semi truck has commenced deliveries in the US – three years behind schedule but with 800km of real-world driving range when fully loaded, three times the power of any diesel truck, and more powerful charging than any production electric vehicle.
The first Tesla Semi electric truck has been delivered in the US to soft-drink giant Pepsi – three years later than schedule, and five years after the vehicle was revealed.
The Tesla Semi is the first of 100 examples reportedly ordered by the company. It was handed over during a ceremony on Friday afternoon Australian time after a string of extended delays.
The Tesla Semi was revealed in 2017 with promises of the first deliveries in 2019.
In launch guise, the Tesla Semi is said to be capable of 500 miles (805km) on a single charge, weighs up to 82,000lb (37.2 tonnes), and is powered by three electric motors derived from one of the world's quickest production cars – the Tesla Model S Plaid sedan.
It is claimed to have "three times the power of any diesel truck on the road", according to vehicle engineering chief Dan Priestley – and can decouple two of its electric motors to save energy on the highway.
Prices are yet to be released, but figures listed on Tesla's website earlier this year suggested the flagship version would cost $US180,000 ($AU268,000).
The Tesla Semi's battery and motors run at 1000 volts – higher than any electric passenger car on sale – and the vehicle is capable of charging at up to 1 megawatt, three times greater what any new electric car on sale in Australia can achieve (350kW).
Tesla has previously claimed this allows the Semi to recharge 70 per cent of its quoted capacity in 30 minutes, on compatible "mega chargers".

There is some pretty impressive stats in that.
800 kms on a single charge is good, especially as it was on a real world test drive carrying a 37 ton GVM.
And the price is a lot less than i would have expected,
The caveats of course are
1. The 1000 volt battery and motor pack is going to require some very serious training and isolation procedures during service.
2. Although the stated ability to charge at 1MW is sensational, the physical ability to have stations with multiple 1MW outputs are going to create some engineering challlenges in terms of supply and distribution.
3. Truckies brought up on the delights of a cummins, detroit or caterpillar will take some convincing.
I can see where the new Freuhauf trailers coming out will have rooftop solar panels to charge while stationary or even on the move.
Maybe a smaller battery pack in the trailer to augment the semi may be the go.
Interesting times ahead.
Mick

 

[basilio]

3. Truckies brought up on the delights of a cummins, detroit or caterpillar will take some convincing.

Perhaps a test drive ? I suspect that the power, comfort, quietness and operating economy of these electric truck rigs will win users over in a heart beat. The cost of buying one will always be a factor but the cheapness of running it 24/7 will make many friends

 

[JohnDe]

Perhaps a test drive ? I suspect that the power, comfort, quietness and operating economy of these electric truck rigs will win users over in a heart beat. The cost of buying one will always be a factor but the cheapness of running it 24/7 will make many friends

One great safety feature is the regenerative braking. Google ‘adelaide hills truck crash’. Every year there are multiple accidents from trucks having brake failure down that hit, the Jacob Brakes aren’t up to the job.

 

[sptrawler]

A side of E.V's that people didn't see coming, obviously when power is restricted, so is E.V usage.

Netflix and 20 degree chill: Switzerland looks to curb energy use

EVs would be banned from non-essential journeys, shop hours reduced and streaming services only permitted at low resolutions under proposed energy-saving measures.

www.theage.com.au

Electric cars could be banned from making non-essential journeys in Switzerland this winter under a COVID-19 lockdown-style plan to deal with potential energy shortages.
Emergency proposals have been drafted by the government that could see buildings heated to no more than 20C, shop opening hours reduced and streaming services limited.

 

[Value Collector]

A side of E.V's that people didn't see coming, obviously when power is restricted, so is E.V usage.

Netflix and 20 degree chill: Switzerland looks to curb energy use

EVs would be banned from non-essential journeys, shop hours reduced and streaming services only permitted at low resolutions under proposed energy-saving measures.

www.theage.com.au

Electric cars could be banned from making non-essential journeys in Switzerland this winter under a COVID-19 lockdown-style plan to deal with potential energy shortages.
Emergency proposals have been drafted by the government that could see buildings heated to no more than 20C, shop opening hours reduced and streaming services limited.

Same thing happens to petrol cars during oil shocks during wars, Australia and most of the western world has had Petrol rationing at multiple times.

The great thing with electricity is you can make your own, not many households can easily refine their own oil.

Also, not only can households make their own electricity, but obviously nations can make their own, so although the initial shock of russian energy being turned off is painful, the nations effected will wean them selves from that supplier and in the future the geopolitical energy problems will be less.

 

[Value Collector]

I wondered about creating a separate thred for elctric trucks, but decided this was still the thread.
Tesla has (finally) delivered its first EV Semi to pepsi .
fromDrive

There is some pretty impressive stats in that.
800 kms on a single charge is good, especially as it was on a real world test drive carrying a 37 ton GVM.
And the price is a lot less than i would have expected,
The caveats of course are
1. The 1000 volt battery and motor pack is going to require some very serious training and isolation procedures during service.
2. Although the stated ability to charge at 1MW is sensational, the physical ability to have stations with multiple 1MW outputs are going to create some engineering challlenges in terms of supply and distribution.
3. Truckies brought up on the delights of a cummins, detroit or caterpillar will take some convincing.
I can see where the new Freuhauf trailers coming out will have rooftop solar panels to charge while stationary or even on the move.
Maybe a smaller battery pack in the trailer to augment the semi may be the go.
Interesting times ahead.
Mick

I think those truckers that love their diesels, will soon be convinced when they are sitting at 30km an hour chugging up an incline, and Tesla’s are charging past at 100km per hour not missing a beat on the incline.

I had a conversation will my brother in-law who is a trucker, over the week end about the Tesla semi. He told me he could never be convinced to drive an electric, but I showed him that footage of the Tesla vs the diesel on the incline and he literally had his jaw drop.

While I am guessing he will still have a sentimental attachment to the old diesels, but the end of that Tesla event video he seemed pretty convinced that they will be very hard to compete with.

———————
When it comes to charging, they won’t have to be charging at the full 1MW/hour speeds all the time.

Truckers need to sleep too, so a lot of their charging can be done at slower speeds, while the trucker is either sleeping or away from the truck at a depot or truck stop.

800kms is about 8 hours of driving, so if the truck was full at the start of the day via an over night or 5 hour type slow charge, the driver would have a full days driving ahead of him with only needing to charge towards the end, after 8 hours they are probably going to want (or be forced by law) to break for a meal and a rest for at least 30mins to an hour, during which time even a fast charger with 1/4 speed of the stated 1MW could pick up enough charge to get them another 4 hours driving before they stop for their nap, at which time a slower charger could be used again.

 

[Smurf1976]

The great thing with electricity is you can make your own, not many households can easily refine their own oil.

Also, not only can households make their own electricity

I've actually done both.

Electricity generation at home is however somewhat easier, safer and more successful than my attempts to get oil from shale in the backyard. I did manage to get oil from it, but not in an economical manner.

At a national or regional level though well if it gets hot, moves or shines then it can be turned into electricity. Any sort of fuel either fossil or bio, geothermal heat, nuclear energy, solar, wind, hydro, wave, tidal and so on. Between them there's far more options for producing electricity than there are for making petrol certainly.

That aspect alone is a huge benefit of EV's. There's still benefit in them even if 100% of the electricity is sourced from coal. It still has benefits in terms of not needing to import fuel from hostile regions etc.

 

[JohnDe]

Same thing happens to petrol cars during oil shocks during wars, Australia and most of the western world has had Petrol rationing at multiple times.

The great thing with electricity is you can make your own, not many households can easily refine their own oil.

Also, not only can households make their own electricity, but obviously nations can make their own, so although the initial shock of russian energy being turned off is painful, the nations effected will wean them selves from that supplier and in the future the geopolitical energy problems will be less.

That is one point that most people forget, we can make or own electricity, but we can't make oil or fuel.

We have two vehicles in our family, my partner was averaging $300 per month on the fuel card. Since replacing the Honda Accord Euro with a Tesla M3 we are saving an average of $150 per month by using solar, with the previous 30 days is turning out to be our best savings ever, $68 in power costs.

I challenge anyone to try making those type of savings with a petrol or diesel vehicle and an oil well in the backyard.

 

[sptrawler]

I've actually done both.

Electricity generation at home is however somewhat easier, safer and more successful than my attempts to get oil from shale in the backyard. I did manage to get oil from it, but not in an economical manner.

At a national or regional level though well if it gets hot, moves or shines then it can be turned into electricity. Any sort of fuel either fossil or bio, geothermal heat, nuclear energy, solar, wind, hydro, wave, tidal and so on. Between them there's far more options for producing electricity than there are for making petrol certainly.

That aspect alone is a huge benefit of EV's. There's still benefit in them even if 100% of the electricity is sourced from coal. It still has benefits in terms of not needing to import fuel from hostile regions etc.

The real benefit IMO is, if push comes to shove, you can swap out the grid connect inverter, for a stand alone off grid one and charge the car from that if the need eventuates.
Happy days, now where is my tool bag.

Growatt SPF5000ES – 5KW 48V OffGrid Inverter - GW Offgrid

or 4 Interest Free Payments of $371.25 The SPF5000ES is a 230VAC output voltage offgrid inverter for backup power or self consumption. Maximum PV voltage is 450VDC and this model has a battery-less mode. Parallel capable in either single phase or 3 phase modes. CEC Approved! IconText Integrated...

gwoffgrid.com.au

 

[JohnDe]

AEVA Webinar - 6th December at 8pm​

An introduction to Fellten with Chris Hazell and Dave Budge​

Zero EV Co-founder and CEO, and now CEO of Fellten, Chris Hazell, and Jaunt Motors Co-founder and CEO, and now Chief Design Officer of Fellten, Dave Budge will be joining us to discuss the future of their new global company, Fellten.
Fellten (Welsh for lightning) is a global electric conversion systems manufacturer creating solutions for car owners and car workshops to convert traditional petrol and diesel cars into electric vehicles. Fellten has engineered systems for a variety of classic brands and models, starting with Porsche 911s, Classic Minis, and Land Rover Series and Defenders.

Fellten’s global team of automotive and electrical engineers, software developers, designers, and trainers is comprised of Jaunt Motors and Zero EV team members all working under the Fellten banner, can provide automotive experts, and mechanics and electric vehicle converters with the technology, tools and training to be a part of the growing global demand for electrification.

Have questions for the Fellten team? Please submit them to secretary@nsw.aeva.asn.au or via our social channels and the team will do their best to make sure they're answered. There will also be a Q&A as part of the event.

To attend the webinar, you must register via the Zoom link.

 

[JohnDe]

I wondered about creating a separate thred for elctric trucks, but decided this was still the thread.
Tesla has (finally) delivered its first EV Semi to pepsi .
fromDrive

There is some pretty impressive stats in that.
800 kms on a single charge is good, especially as it was on a real world test drive carrying a 37 ton GVM.
And the price is a lot less than i would have expected,
The caveats of course are
1. The 1000 volt battery and motor pack is going to require some very serious training and isolation procedures during service.
2. Although the stated ability to charge at 1MW is sensational, the physical ability to have stations with multiple 1MW outputs are going to create some engineering challlenges in terms of supply and distribution.
3. Truckies brought up on the delights of a cummins, detroit or caterpillar will take some convincing.
I can see where the new Freuhauf trailers coming out will have rooftop solar panels to charge while stationary or even on the move.
Maybe a smaller battery pack in the trailer to augment the semi may be the go.
Interesting times ahead.
Mick

 

[mullokintyre]

If one can believe rhe sales spiel, MIT may have made a lot of existing batteries, whether they be BYD blade or Teslas 4680, somewhat obsolete.
From Some bloke called Will Locket

Musk’s plan to dominate the EV world was centred on Tesla’s 4680 battery. In theory, it could be one of the cheapest and highest-performance batteries out there, giving Tesla a massive technological advantage. But the reality of manufacturing them has kneecapped Musk’s plans, as they are currently underperforming and comparatively expensive due to massive manufacturing issues. Interestingly, 24M, an MIT spinoff company, used a completely different approach to create a high-performance battery that is cheaper than the 4680 and far easier to manufacture. So, how has 24M outdone Tesla? And will this threaten Tesla’s success?

Tesla’s approach to design is very basic but ruthlessly efficient. Step one: Simplify the design by reducing the number of components. Step two: Make assembly processes quicker with fewer steps. Step three: Double down on high-value features, such as high-resolution screens, self-driving systems, efficiency, or high-speed charging, and not-so-valued features, like material quality, colour choices, or trim choices. This process gives Tesla a product that costs far less to manufacture but is valued highly by customers, allowing them to charge more per vehicle and have astonishingly high profit margins. Tesla then uses this massive amount of profit to fund its rapid expansion.

You can see the same approach in the 4680 battery. This next-generation cell has several design choices that lean into this “simplify and double down on high-value features” method. Firstly, it is giant, meaning a battery pack is made of only 800+ cells rather than the 10,000+ cells in the old 2170-based packs. These cells are also glued together rather than bolted in, which makes the 4680 battery pack far cheaper to assemble than any other. But this design does sacrifice repairability, as you can’t replace a single 4680 cell without destroying the entire pack thanks to the glue. Tesla also wanted to use a new dry-coating process for manufacturing the electrodes rather than the traditional wet-coating process. This would reduce the time and complexity of battery assembly, making the 4680 cheaper. Finally, Tesla wanted to use a fully silicone anode and zero cobalt in the 4680, making it more environmentally friendly and having faster charge times. Altogether, this would make a battery that has higher performance than any other on the market while costing only $60 per kWh, or around 56% cheaper than current cells!

But the dry coating process is incredibly difficult to get consistent enough to be used at scale. Moreover, silicone anodes expand and contract during charging and discharging, making it really hard to incorporate them into a battery. As such, the 4680 batteries that Tesla is currently producing don’t have these features, forcing them to be less energy dense than Tesla’s old batteries and costing $91 per kWh (read more here), which is miles from their target price.

This is where 24M’s SemiSolid battery comes in. You see, like Tesla, they have aimed to simplify the manufacturing process to create cheaper cells. But unlike Tesla, they didn’t modify existing production methods. Instead, they started from scratch. What’s more, they also didn’t sacrifice usability (i.e., the ability to repair the pack). After years of development, they ended up with a battery that takes five times less time to manufacture, has 80% less inactive material inside, can use any lithium-ion chemistry, and costs 40% less than equivalent current cells, or $79.20 per kWh.

For some context as to how impressive that price is, Bloomberg estimates that for an EV to cost the same as a combustion vehicle, batteries need to cost $100 per kWh. So this represents a dramatic price reduction! But how have they done this?

Well, most lithium-ion battery manufacturing processes are just an evolution of magnetic tape production methods from the 1980s. The batteries are made of five layers: a solid electrode, a gel-like electrolyte, a solid separator, another layer of electrolyte, and finally, another electrode. Drying and binding these layers properly is challenging and complex, hence why batteries are expensive and hard to manufacture at scale.

24M got around this issue by using technology meant for flow batteries (read more about them here) to turn the electrodes into gooey, gel-like material. This means fewer binding agents are needed, manufacturing doesn’t have to wait for drying, and production is super simple and ultra-fast as you only need to deposit the gels on top of each other. Moreover, because less inactive material is used, the battery is remarkably energy dense. 24M has used this method to make aviation-grade batteries with energy densities of 400–500 Wh/kg. For reference, the current Tesla 4680s are only 244 Wh/kg.

You may think that such a slushy internal setup would mean a lower life cycle than lithium-ion batteries. But actually, the SemiSolid battery is rated for 20+ years of life when used as a grid-level battery. This means that if used as an EV battery, it could outlive the vehicle in which it is installed.

As for performance, this internal design can use any chemistry setup. This means it can make high-performance, ultra-low-cost, or very environmentally friendly batteries, depending on customers’ demands. So you could get a SemiSolid battery that charges from 10% to 80% in 15 minutes and costs well below $79.20 per kWh.

But this is all just in theory. The proof will be in the pudding when this battery is manufactured. However, this will soon happen, as 24M has licenced this technology to VW, Lucas TVS, AXXIVA, and FREYR. The last three are actually in the process of building gigafactories (which can produce a gigawatt-hour of battery capacity each year) to produce SemiSolid batteries. Due to the SemiSolid’s lack of complex or difficult-to-refine manufacturing processes, their production should scale up extremely quickly, allowing 24M and their partner companies to underprice, outperform, and out-produce Tesla’s 4680.

So, unless something massive happens to 24M or their partner companies, we could soon see a wide range of super-cheap and fast-charging EVs thanks to 24M.

I guess we will have to wait to see what comes out of the newly licensed giga factories of VW, Lucas TVS and FREYR.
As we say round here, the jury is still out.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

If one can believe rhe sales spiel, MIT may have made a lot of existing batteries, whether they be BYD blade or Teslas 4680, somewhat obsolete.
From Some bloke called Will Locket

I guess we will have to wait to see what comes out of the newly licensed giga factories of VW, Lucas TVS and FREYR.
As we say round here, the jury is still out.
Mick

You also have the CATYL Qilin blade battery, interesting times, keep an eye on the materials.
Nothing much is changing, just how much you can shove in a box and keep it cool. ?

CATL's groundbreaking Qilin battery pack promises a 621-mile range for EVs

It beats the 4680-cell innovation that Elon Musk talks about.

interestingengineering.com

 

[sptrawler]

Another article on the CATYL battery.

Hyundai and Kia electric cars with 1000km range possible thanks to new battery deal

Chinese giant CATL looks set to supply Hyundai and Kia electric cars with batteries from next year.

www.drive.com.au

 

[qldfrog]

Another article on the CATYL battery.

Hyundai and Kia electric cars with 1000km range possible thanks to new battery deal

Chinese giant CATL looks set to supply Hyundai and Kia electric cars with batteries from next year.

www.drive.com.au

I mentioned that a while back: but probably shut from the many active posters here.things are moving indeed,issue remains of reliance on lithium.i hope for the current buyers that these tech will be backward compatible in rhe form of adaptation kit.
At present time,systems and so whole cars are closely integrated with batteries in the absence of standards so it is not tomorrow your new Tesla battery will not be a Tesla one

 

[mullokintyre]

I mentioned that a while back: but probably shut from the many active posters here.things are moving indeed,issue remains of reliance on lithium.i hope for the current buyers that these tech will be backward compatible in rhe form of adaptation kit.
At present time,systems and so whole cars are closely integrated with batteries in the absence of standards so it is not tomorrow your new Tesla battery will not be a Tesla one

There is around 80KGS of copper in a Tesla model 3 versus about 63 kg of lithium.
I would be more concerned about Copper than lithium. No matter what material is used in batteries, copper will always be used.
One of the reasons that EV's are moving to ever higher DC voltages is that the higher the voltage , the lower the current to produce the same level of power. Lower current means less thick copper wires and bus bars, meaning less cost and just as important, less weight.
The backward compatibility issues will be solved by non OEM third party business opportunities for replacement batteries.
By the time most EV's need a new battery pack, there will be no warranty left in the vehicle, so third parties will be able to do whatever they can to make it commercially attractive. There will always be a trade in for battery packs - the fact that the batteries only hold say 70% of their original capacity does not mean they will be scrapped.
There is already a steady aftermarket for second hand EV battery packs, some used in original ICE to EV conversoons, some used as residential emergency storage, some will be used in the remote EV /solar charging stations that will eventually pop up. The possibilities are endless.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

The backward compatibility issues will be solved by non OEM third party business opportunities for replacement batteries.
By the time most EV's need a new battery pack, there will be no warranty left in the vehicle, so third parties will be able to do whatever they can to make it commercially attractive. There will always be a trade in for battery packs - the fact that the batteries only hold say 70% of their original capacity does not mean they will be scrapped.
There is already a steady aftermarket for second hand EV battery packs, some used in original ICE to EV conversoons, some used as residential emergency storage, some will be used in the remote EV /solar charging stations that will eventually pop up. The possibilities are endless.
Mick

And one of the reasons I bought the Kona, in five years time the whole E.V space will be completely different IMO, so the Kona will be going to the daughter. She only drives locally so range degradation wont be an issue and cosmetic parts are the same as for an ICE Kona so she should be able to keep it on the road for a relatively cheap cost, as she will never earn a high wage.
Everyone to their own.

 

[JohnDe]

I mentioned that a while back: but probably shut from the many active posters here.things are moving indeed,issue remains of reliance on lithium.i hope for the current buyers that these tech will be backward compatible in rhe form of adaptation kit.
At present time,systems and so whole cars are closely integrated with batteries in the absence of standards so it is not tomorrow your new Tesla battery will not be a Tesla one

Sorry, this year has been extremely busy for me, and I think I am suffering from brain fog. Could you please clarify what you are saying and explain the point of it.

I think you said

1. 'I told everyone about 1000km battery range, and I was shut down for it by forum members that post a lot'
2. 'Tech is changing, lithium is a problem, backward compatability issues will required adaption kits'
3. 'EVs have a system that integrates with the battery, and with no standards there will be problems sourcing a battery pack and it may not be a Tesla battery'