Electric cars?

[mullokintyre]

EV 's do not have an alternator, and do not need one as they have a DC -DC charger that takes the 48 volt or whatever the EV battery packs nominal voltage is, and transforms it back to 13.4 or so for charging the 12 volt battery.
I am surprised there is no software enabler that allows the EV main battery to use the DC-DC charger to maintain the 12 volt battery when the vehicle is not running.
If an EV has a 55 KW battery that is fully charged, it should be able to maintain a 20 amp hour 12 Volt battery at 90% charge for a long time unless whatever is still turned on in the EV drawing from the 12 volt battery is running at 1 amp or greater.
I am also surprised that all EV's do not already have a lithium 12 volt battery.
They are lighter, can hold charge longer, can be depleted a lot more than a lead acid battery for the same nominal output without severe degradation, but of course are more expensive.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

EV 's do not have an alternator, and do not need one as they have a DC -DC charger that takes the 48 volt or whatever the EV battery packs nominal voltage is, and transforms it back to 13.4 or so for charging the 12 volt battery.
I am surprised there is no software enabler that allows the EV main battery to use the DC-DC charger to maintain the 12 volt battery when the vehicle is not running.
If an EV has a 55 KW battery that is fully charged, it should be able to maintain a 20 amp hour 12 Volt battery at 90% charge for a long time unless whatever is still turned on in the EV drawing from the 12 volt battery is running at 1 amp or greater.
I am also surprised that all EV's do not already have a lithium 12 volt battery.
They are lighter, can hold charge longer, can be depleted a lot more than a lead acid battery for the same nominal output without severe degradation, but of course are more expensive.
Mick

12V lead acid batteries do die from time to time. An EVs main battery will keep the 12V battery topped up, however the management system will not allow the main battery to sacrifice itself over the 12V battery -

"...the 12v battery can fail or run flat, especially if the car is left for a long period of time and the main battery has entered its low energy mode."​

Small 12V Lead acid batteries do have some minor advantages over a 12V lithium battery -

"From 2022, many Teslas come with a Lithium Ion Low Voltage battery pack. This has some benefits but can also be more difficult to deal with if it runs flat. This battery typically has a voltage above 12V and as a result a normal car battery charger may not work. If you get a flat battery with these cars then roadside assistance may be the only option.​

​

Coupled with the above, cars with the LFP main battery pack, which are typically Standard Range models, need to regularly top up the main battery to 100% to ensure the car maintains the correct charge level in the low voltage battery."​

Tesla Flat 12v Battery

Tesla flat 12v battery and what to do when stuck

tesla-info.com

 

[sptrawler]

I just found this information.

Tesla Flat 12v Battery

Tesla flat 12v battery and what to do when stuck

tesla-info.com

Yes, that is kind of what I was alluding to and where a small jump pack comes in handy.
Not only if the 12v gets drained, or fails to charge, but when the 12v decides to die of old age exactly at the worst possible time as is usually the case.
You can guarantee the 12v battery will be the cheapest nastiest piece of crap they can lay their hands on. ?

 

[mullokintyre]

Yes, that is kind of what I was alluding to and where a small jump pack comes in handy.
Not only if the 12v gets drained, or fails to charge, but when the 12v decides to die of old age exactly at the worst possible time as is usually the case.
You can guarantee the 12v battery will be the cheapest nastiest piece of crap they can lay their hands on. ?

With the ole ICE, if you get a car started, the alternator will supply sufficient power to keep the motor running regardless of the state of the battery, so even with a completely dead battery, a jump pack will start the car and the alternator will keep it running, so all is fine until you turn the engine off again.
The big question is , what is the EV equivalent of "starting the engine" to get the alternator running?
If enough power is supplied to open the contactor to the EV battery pack, the contactor for the DC-DC charger, then the 12 V battery should start charging.
If the battery is dead however, it will not charge, but does the EV motor still keep "running" in standby before you put your foot on the accelerator?
Does the DC-Dvc charger (or more likely the software that controls it), still put out 13.4 volts to supply the non EV electricals, like lights, aircon or more importantly, the contactors that open the EV battery pack?
Will need to do some experiments to work these things out.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

With the ole ICE, if you get a car started, the alternator will supply sufficient power to keep the motor running regardless of the state of the battery, so even with a completely dead battery, a jump pack will start the car and the alternator will keep it running, so all is fine until you turn the engine off again.
The big question is , what is the EV equivalent of "starting the engine" to get the alternator running?
If enough power is supplied to open the contactor to the EV battery pack, the contactor for the DC-DC charger, then the 12 V battery should start charging.
If the battery is dead however, it will not charge, but does the EV motor still keep "running" in standby before you put your foot on the accelerator?
Does the DC-Dvc charger (or more likely the software that controls it), still put out 13.4 volts to supply the non EV electricals, like lights, aircon or more importantly, the contactors that open the EV battery pack?
Will need to do some experiments to work these things out.
Mick

A lot of 'ifs' there.

What if the alternator has failed and caused the battery to go flat?
What if the battery is dead and affects the Power Control Module (PCM)?
What if the car is an automatic and there is no booster pack available?
What if the Neutral Safety Switch has failed?
What if the ignition switch has failed?
What if the Main Fuse has failed?

Why Do Electric Cars Still Use 12-Volt Batteries?​

​

There are a couple of reasons. First of all, an electric vehicle has two distinct needs when it comes to dispatching electrons: moving the car and everything else. Propulsion is handled by the big, expensive, latest-and-greatest high-voltage battery, because you need lightning in a bottle if you want to do the quarter-mile in 9.4 seconds. For charging, the more voltage, the better. But powering up the stereo does not require 800 volts. Nor would you want that coursing through every circuit in the car, for a variety of reasons. Safety, for one.​

​

We asked Hyundai's EV engineers why the 12-volt battery persists, and Ryan Miller, manager of electrified powertrain development, responded. "All the ECUs in the vehicle are powered from the low voltage, as well as the power relays that separate power from the high-voltage battery pack and the rest of the high-voltage network in the car," he said. "That separation allows us to safely disconnect the high voltage from the low voltage when the vehicle is not being driven or in the event of a crash." You don't want first responders to contend with door locks powered by Doc Brown's Mr. Fusion.​

​

There's also a legacy situation at play. Everyone—manufacturers and suppliers—knows how to make a 12-volt system work, affordably and reliably. Even if you manage to drain the 12-volt battery, you can break out the ol' jumper cables or Weego and solve the problem in a minute or two. Given all the other financial and technical challenges of building an EV, going with a 12-volt system for the car's computers and accessories makes sense. That's particularly true in the case of plug-in hybrids, which often retain as much commonality as possible with their traditional internal-combustion cousins.​

​

It remains to be seen whether the world adopts some other common voltage—24 volts, or 48—but for now, the 12-volt system reigns. Whether that will always mean a separate battery that would work equally well in a 1968 Chevelle is more of an open question. Hyundai, for instance, considered the absurdity of jump-starting an electric car or hybrid and connected its low-voltage systems to the large traction battery, allowing electrified Hyundais to jump-start themselves when you push the "12V Batt Reset" button on the dash. And while that button conjures an image of your standard AC Delco lead-acid, the low-voltage systems are actually run by a 14-volt lithium-ion battery that sits inside the high-voltage battery pack. You won't find that at the local auto-parts store.​

Why Do Electric Cars Still Use 12-Volt Batteries?

Your electric car or plug-in hybrid is propelled by a sophisticated lithium-ion battery, but you'll probably also find a lead-acid 12-volt battery in there somewhere. Don't throw away your jumper cables just yet.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[sptrawler]

Yes the good old days, when all you needed was a bale of hay and a trough of water and the horse kept working and the only drop out could be picked up in a bucket then put on the garden. ?

 

[macca]

Yes the good old days, when all you needed was a bale of hay and a trough of water and the horse kept working and the only drop out could be picked up in a bucket then put on the garden. ?

And it had flow through ventilation as well

 

[mullokintyre]

A lot of 'ifs' there.

What if the alternator has failed and caused the battery to go flat?
What if the battery is dead and affects the Power Control Module (PCM)?
What if the car is an automatic and there is no booster pack available?
What if the Neutral Safety Switch has failed?
What if the ignition switch has failed?
What if the Main Fuse has failed?

Yeah, but most of the If's were supplied by you.
I did some searching regarding the charging of 12v batteries in an EV.

One of the interesting things I found when reading Electronic design for RV
was that some of the pins on the Pilot controller revert to 12 volts when charging has been completed and the charging connector removed, thus its normal state is a live 12 volts.
Depending on how that 12 volt is managed, it means either a contactor, digital switch, or some othe rdigital component will be drawing some current. So there will always be some current drain from the 12 volt battery, no matter how small.

• When the vehicle detects that its battery has been charged to its maximum allowable state of charge, it causes the positive square-wave peak to rises to +9 V, signaling the EVSE to remove power. The +9-V, –12-V square wave on pin 6 continues until the cable is disconnected, when it reverts to the continuous +12-V state.

And just to confuse things, I found two quotes that basically said direct opposite things.
From KBB

A dead 12-volt battery in an electric vehicle can happen for many reasons, including sitting unused for an extended period or a fault in the car’s charging circuit. No matter the reason for the low charge, the 12-volt battery must have enough power to start the car’s electrical system.

The 12-volt battery in an EV usually charges at the same time the car is charged and also through the electrical current that is transferred from the high-voltage battery when not connected to a charging station.

If the 12-volt battery in your EV has lost its charge, you can use jumper cables to try to start the vehicle.

Then there is Toms guide

If an EV uses a 12V battery, which the majority do, the battery will be identical to those found in other cars. However the smaller battery draws its power from the car’s main power-train battery if its charge level dips too low.

It’s important to remember that this borrowing of charge usually does not happen when the car is plugged in. If you leave an EV on zero-percent main battery for long enough, the 12V battery will eventually die too.

What’s more, in some cases having a dead 12V battery may prevent the main battery from being recharged. That is not a situation you want to find yourself in.

So one guru says tha ta 12 volt battery usually charges at the same time the car is charged,
The other guru says that this "borrowing" of charge does not usually happen when the car is plugged in (I am assuming he means plugged in to a charger).
I saw other discussions that suggest that some vehicles only energise the Dc-Dc charger for the 12 volt battery when the battery is in traction mode, ie running, although this seems to be not part of the charging standards.
When i finally get my toy ev running, I will have to look at the canbus messages on the DC-Dc charging circuitry to find a deffinitve answer for that controller.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

I know when I went on a months holiday in October, I put a trickle charger on the 12v battery, me of little faith. Lol

 

[JohnDe]

Yeah, but most of the If's were supplied by you.
I did some searching regarding the charging of 12v batteries in an EV.

One of the interesting things I found when reading Electronic design for RV
was that some of the pins on the Pilot controller revert to 12 volts when charging has been completed and the charging connector removed, thus its normal state is a live 12 volts.
Depending on how that 12 volt is managed, it means either a contactor, digital switch, or some othe rdigital component will be drawing some current. So there will always be some current drain from the 12 volt battery, no matter how small.

And just to confuse things, I found two quotes that basically said direct opposite things.
From KBB

Then there is Toms guide

So one guru says tha ta 12 volt battery usually charges at the same time the car is charged,
The other guru says that this "borrowing" of charge does not usually happen when the car is plugged in (I am assuming he means plugged in to a charger).
I saw other discussions that suggest that some vehicles only energise the Dc-Dc charger for the 12 volt battery when the battery is in traction mode, ie running, although this seems to be not part of the charging standards.
When i finally get my toy ev running, I will have to look at the canbus messages on the DC-Dc charging circuitry to find a deffinitve answer for that controller.
Mick

Just pointing out that there is no infallible system in the automotive world.

Even an ICE vehicle battery has a constant draw of current. My wife's previous car (now our daughters), a Honda Accord Euro, would kill batteries if we left it standing for too long. We've gone through a higher number of batteries than normal, with the average battery life at 30 months, and the current best is a Century Ultra Hi Performance battery with 3 years and still going.

Each EV manufacturer may use a different 12V system, but they are still the same basic system. and some manufacturers are better than others. I believe that the Tesla system is one of the best, it not only maintains the 12V battery but notifies the driver when it detects an issue and recommends replacement.

 

[Value Collector]

With the ole ICE, if you get a car started, the alternator will supply sufficient power to keep the motor running regardless of the state of the battery, so even with a completely dead battery, a jump pack will start the car and the alternator will keep it running, so all is fine until you turn the engine off again.
The big question is , what is the EV equivalent of "starting the engine" to get the alternator running?
If enough power is supplied to open the contactor to the EV battery pack, the contactor for the DC-DC charger, then the 12 V battery should start charging.
If the battery is dead however, it will not charge, but does the EV motor still keep "running" in standby before you put your foot on the accelerator?
Does the DC-Dvc charger (or more likely the software that controls it), still put out 13.4 volts to supply the non EV electricals, like lights, aircon or more importantly, the contactors that open the EV battery pack?
Will need to do some experiments to work these things out.
Mick

I think in that rare case I just call road side assistance or a battery guy and get a new battery.

As I said I happy to be a Guinea pig on this one for you guys, my car is 3 years old, and I am not going to change the 12 V until either Tesla tell me too or it fails, let’s see what happens.

I think flat 12V in Ev’s are going to much less of a problem than in ice cars though.

 

[sptrawler]

I think in that rare case I just call road side assistance or a battery guy and get a new battery.

As I said I happy to be a Guinea pig on this one for you guys, my car is 3 years old, and I am not going to change the 12 V until either Tesla tell me too or it fails, let’s see what happens.

I think flat 12V in Ev’s are going to much less of a problem than in ice cars though.

With your cash, you will probably just buy a new car, when the 12v battery fails. ?

 

[qldfrog]

On the charger availability issue..or planned issue, the USA is not immune

I Rented an Electric Car for a Four-Day Road Trip. I Spent More Time Charging It Than I Did Sleeping.

Our writer drove from New Orleans to Chicago and back to test the feasibility of taking a road trip in an EV. She wouldn’t soon do it again.

www.wsj.com

 

[mullokintyre]

Yeah, but most of the If's were supplied by you.
I did some searching regarding the charging of 12v batteries in an EV.

One of the interesting things I found when reading Electronic design for RV
was that some of the pins on the Pilot controller revert to 12 volts when charging has been completed and the charging connector removed, thus its normal state is a live 12 volts.
Depending on how that 12 volt is managed, it means either a contactor, digital switch, or some othe rdigital component will be drawing some current. So there will always be some current drain from the 12 volt battery, no matter how small.

And just to confuse things, I found two quotes that basically said direct opposite things.
From KBB

Then there is Toms guide

So one guru says tha ta 12 volt battery usually charges at the same time the car is charged,
The other guru says that this "borrowing" of charge does not usually happen when the car is plugged in (I am assuming he means plugged in to a charger).
I saw other discussions that suggest that some vehicles only energise the Dc-Dc charger for the 12 volt battery when the battery is in traction mode, ie running, although this seems to be not part of the charging standards.
When i finally get my toy ev running, I will have to look at the canbus messages on the DC-Dc charging circuitry to find a deffinitve answer for that controller.
Mick

So last night I did some checks on the electrical diagram for the DC-Dc charger in the toy car.
The key switch /ignition/start switch supplies 12v to the DC-DC converter which enables it to start charging.
When the key switch is turned off, the EV battery via the DC-DC-Charger cannot charge the 12 Volt battery.
So in this case, if I am to leave it for extended periods of time, I would need to have a trickle charge on the 12 battery.
According to EV central , the drain on the 12 battery during idle varies from vehicle manufactturer.

While an EV’s main battery pack is isolated from the high-voltage circuits that connect it to the motor when the car is switched off for safety reasons, it remains connected to the low-power DC/DC converter that keeps the 12V battery charged.

All modern cars have components that need power from the 12V battery to stay awake even when the vehicle is switched off. Alarms, clocks and central locking sensors are obvious examples. In the case of an EV the list is longer. It will include things like battery pack management systems.

The BMS and controller as well as the display are always on on in the toy car, so there will be a small current draw all the time.
And when the wall charger is plugged in, unless the the key is turned on, the 12 battery does not also charge.

In some EVs the drain can add up. Here’s what Tesla says in the user manual for the Model 3: “Even when the Model 3 is not being driven, its battery discharges very slowly to power the onboard electronics. The battery can discharge at a rate of approximately 1 percent per day, though the discharge rate may vary depending environmental factors (such as cold weather), vehicle configuration and your selected settings on the touchscreen.”

Model 3 owners are advised to take the rate of charge loss into account when, for example, planning to leave their car at the airport while taking a two-week holiday.

But if the car is to be left in a place where a charger is available, say a private garage equipped with a wallbox, then Tesla recommends leaving the car plugged in.
Other EV manufacturers instead recommend leaving the car unplugged. The Nissan Leaf is an example. This prompts the Nissan to enter its battery-conserving sleep mode.

This won’t guarantee that the car will be good to go when its owner returns. There are plenty of stories of Leafs, and other EVs, with dead 12V batteries to be found on enthusiast websites and Youtube channels.

Some owners report having found that connecting the Leaf’s 12V battery to a battery tender or trickle charger is a really good idea if the car isn’t going to be driven for a long while.

Ironically, this is the same kind of precaution that should be taken with an ICE-powered car.

So it pays to really understand how your EV charging system works, knowing whether the 12 V battery keeps being charged by the DC-DC converter during hi voltage EV pack charge, whether it charges during long storage, and whether it is switchable to do so.
The toy car allows the key to be on during charge, so that radios, aircon, demisters etc will still work, but the the traction control is interlocked so you cannot drive away with the charger cable attached. I think I will add a switch to the system to enable the DC-DC charger regardless of whether the key is on for longer term storage, rather than add a 12Volt trickle charger as well as the granny charger for traction battery maintenance for long term storage.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

On the charger availability issue..or planned issue, the USA is not immune

I Rented an Electric Car for a Four-Day Road Trip. I Spent More Time Charging It Than I Did Sleeping.

Our writer drove from New Orleans to Chicago and back to test the feasibility of taking a road trip in an EV. She wouldn’t soon do it again.

www.wsj.com

We discussed that article back in August / June.

By Rachel Wolfe
Updated June 3, 2022 3:53 pm ET

 

[JohnDe]

What happens when a Tesla is forgotten in a shed for 2 years -

Tesla Model 3 Stored For Two Years Is Not Your Usual Barn Find

This brand-new Model 3 Long Range was parked outside and almost abandoned for about two years; does it still work?



What happens when you abandon a Tesla Model 3 for nearly two years? Well, "abandon" might be too strong a word because this particular Model 3 Long Range featured in RSymons RSEV’s video was not left out on the street but parked under a shelter by its owner. It was outside, but not fully exposed to the elements.

The owner bought the car brand new with the intention to ship it overseas from the UK but that didn't work out for various reasons, so he left it in storage for almost two years. He decided to sell it recently and that's how UK electric car specialist RSymons RSEV got hold of this Model 3 "barn find."

It shows only 32 miles (52 kilometers) on the odometer and it even has that new car smell inside. The exterior needed some thorough cleaning, however; after a good wash, it looked brand-new on the outside as well.

Fortunately, the original owner did not leave the car unplugged for such an extended period of time, which would have been very damaging to the battery. He left it plugged in a regular three-pin socket at 8 amps and set the charging limit at around 50%, which is in the mid range of the battery.

That was a very wise decision as the Tesla Model 3's battery is in good shape, showing a perfectly normal range of 310 miles (499 kilometers) at 100% SoC.

The video also takes a look at the vehicle's software, which is the old version 10 but still works great according to Richard Symons, who misses some of its features. That said, he updated to the current V11 software version and that went smoothly.

If you're planning on leaving your Tesla (or any other electric car for that matter) parked for a long period of time (four to six weeks), this video has some useful tips regarding the battery.

For example, you should never leave the battery flat or charged to 100%. If you can leave it plugged in, that's the best way to do it; if not, leave it charged to 90% and make sure there aren't any apps connecting to the car as those will drain the battery more quickly. Check out the above video for more tips.

 

[Value Collector]

What happens when a Tesla is forgotten in a shed for 2 years -

I would like to see how long the software update takes.

 

[JohnDe]

This looks interesting -

Electric vehicles are making their way onto Australian roads. But when will we start to see more EVs on our farms? In what timeframe will electric heavy machinery become available? What infrastructure will be required to ensure that farmers and rural Australia are equipped to deal with this new demand?
Join us to hear from Stephanie Gersekowski (John Deere) and Ross De Rango (Electric Vehicles Council) who will share what is on the horizon for electric farm vehicles and what will be needed from our energy systems to make the most of these opportunities.

Electric vehicles on farms

Farmers for Climate Action represent almost 7,000 farmers across Australia. Our supporter base includes over 35,000 Australians committed to climate action for agriculture. Together we are working to ensure farmers are a key part of the solution to climate change.

farmersforclimateaction.org.au

Speakers​

Stephanie Gersekowski​

Steph is John Deere’s Production Systems Manager for Australia and New Zealand. She grew up on a beef and grain property on Queensland’s Darling Downs, which inspired her to pursue a career in agriculture. Steph joined John Deere in 2015, where she has supported John Deere dealers and customers within the ag industry across various marketing and sales roles. In Steph’s current role as Production Systems Manager, she is responsible for supporting the Horticulture and Dairy & livestock segments across Australia and New Zealand through delivering products and solutions to help meet customer needs.

Ross De Rango​

Ross is the Head of Energy and Infrastructure at the Electric Vehicle Council, which is the peak body representing the electric vehicle sector. Ross’ work at the EVC includes lots of technical and commercial contribution to tariff designs and demand response architectures – he sits on several standards committees and working groups in these areas. Outside of work, Ross drives a 2014 outlander PHEV, and is happy to talk EVs with anyone!

 

[JohnDe]

 

[basilio]

Now this is what I am looking for in EV.

Small but not tiny. Well built. 300k plus range . Enough speed to keep up with the traffic. In production. Current price probably 22-24k for Australia.

Check out the excellent you tube driving review. The company that produces these has more exotic models.

Low-cost electric hatchbacks are finally making a big Leap into the market​

• November 28, 2022
• No comments
• 2 minute read
• Riz Akhtar

Source: Leapmotor

Aside from Nissan Leaf, EV hatchbacks have been missing from the Australian EV market. But that may be about to change soon.
Last week, Australia’s first low cost EV hatchback was spotted being tested on the streets of Sydney.

Now the news is surfacing of an EV hatchback brand exporting cars to Israel which looks promising for other markets like Australia.
Leapmotors is a Chinese EV brand that focuses on affordable EVs. Its T03 hatchback has just been launched in Israel after the brand opened its three showrooms in the country.
The T03 is an affordable city hatchback. It’s slightly smaller in length than a Toyota Yaris coming in at:

• 3,620 mm in length
• 1,652 mm in width
• 1,577 mm in height

It’s powered by a 55 kW motor that drives the front wheels and offers 155 Nm of torque which is plenty for inner-city driving.

The motor is fed by a 36.5 kWh battery pack which can deliver up to 300 km of WLTP range.

For a car that costs less than $15,000 AUD in its local market, it offers a 10.1” infotainment screen as well as three outside cameras and twelve radars for level 2 autonomous driving.

This is quite remarkable to see the specifications and what’s included for that price. Even after shipping, local delivery and dealership costs, it could be an EV that’s available in the Australian market for under $22,000.

Low-cost electric hatchbacks are finally making a big Leap into the market

Aside from Nissan Leaf, EV hatchbacks have been missing from the Australian EV market. But that may be about to change soon.

thedriven.io