Electric cars?

[Smurf1976]

As a practical observation, people often do bizarre things with heating / cooling in cars.

Like running the A/C compressor literally every time they drive the car whether needed or not, then turning the heating up if they feel cold. Unless the aim is to reduce humidity, which sometimes it is but usually it isn't, then that's a bizarre thing to be doing.

Oh how I wish our schools would put more focus on teaching physics.

 

[qldfrog]

One other trick I have learned when it comes to winter, is that using the heated seat uses less energy than heating the whole cabin using the climate control.

———————

When I said that to one of my friends he mentioned that “that’s the good thing about petrol cars, heating them doesn’t use extra fuel” but I quickly pointed out that is because you are always wasting about 50% of your fuel to heat loss, so it only seems like it’s not using extra fuel because you are always just wasting all that energy all the time, so capturing a small portion of it is easy, but EV’s are so efficient that if you want some extra heat most of it has to come from your battery, because there just isn’t the wasted energy anywhere.

As if neither the motors or the batteries need cooling in EV?
More a matter of design not (yet) good enough to get this extra heat back into the cabin at will

 

[Value Collector]

As if neither the motors or the batteries need cooling in EV?
More a matter of design not (yet) good enough to get this extra heat back into the cabin at will

The electric motor loses very little heat compared to a petrol motor, and they actually use the small amount of heat they lose to keep the battery warm.

Just look at the efficiency of the petrol motor run about 35% efficiency, and most of that lost energy is heat, hence why you need large radiators.

 

[Value Collector]

Not sure about that. Heated seats use heavy wire as a resistor, electrical current is passed through the wire which heats up because of the resistance. This is an inefficient use of electricity, and is why Tesla changed its cabin heater from a resistor type heater to a heat pump.

not my 2019 model 3, it uses resistance heating for the cabin.

Also, the Heated seat suggestion vs the cabin heater comes from Tesla themselves, even though is less efficient per unit of heat, the fact you are directly heating your body vs the cubic metres of air in the whole cabin means it takes less heat.

 

[Value Collector]

As a practical observation, people often do bizarre things with heating / cooling in cars.

Like running the A/C compressor literally every time they drive the car whether needed or not, then turning the heating up if they feel cold. Unless the aim is to reduce humidity, which sometimes it is but usually it isn't, then that's a bizarre thing to be doing.

Oh how I wish our schools would put more focus on teaching physics.

I have my climate control set to 22 in the car, and it sits there pretty much all year, sometimes I drop it down to 21.

 

[JohnDe]

I have my climate control set to 22 in the car, and it sits there pretty much all year, sometimes I drop it down to 21.

I have found that having the climate control on all year round improves the reliability of the A/C system.

When the A/C is running the compressor is pumping the refrigerant and lubricant around the whole system, the internal pipes, valves and other components remain wet and protected from acids and moisture corrosion.

Having the system turned off for long periods causes the lubricant to fall to the lowest spot, internal components lose the protective oil barrier and become susceptible to corrosion. The compressor is prone to vibration damage when stationary for long periods and continual engine vibration, which causes the compressors internal components to vibrate with no lubricant barrier.

 

[sptrawler]

I was wondering when the road usage tax imposed by the States, was going to be challenged, apparently it is going to the high court.
It is a bit of a scam, the States saying the tax was to replace the fuel excise tax, when the fuel excise tax was a Federal tax.

States unite in High Court bid to intercept electric-car tax from Federal Government – report

The Federal Government has backed a High Court challenge against Victoria and its road-user tax.

www.drive.com.au

 

[Value Collector]

I have found that having the climate control on all year round improves the reliability of the A/C system.

When the A/C is running the compressor is pumping the refrigerant and lubricant around the whole system, the internal pipes, valves and other components remain wet and protected from acids and moisture corrosion.

Having the system turned off for long periods causes the lubricant to fall to the lowest spot, internal components lose the protective oil barrier and become susceptible to corrosion. The compressor is prone to vibration damage when stationary for long periods and continual engine vibration, which causes the compressors internal components to vibrate with no lubricant barrier.

When reading about vehicle A/C last night, an maintenance guy did suggest running it atleast every 2 weeks.

 

[JohnDe]

When reading about vehicle A/C last night, an maintenance guy did suggest running it atleast every 2 weeks.

Yes, always recommended. Though few owners remember to do it. Some manufacturers, like Nissan, used to have the A/C compressor operate when selecting Reverse.

It doesn't matter the quality or how good the refrigerant hoses are, they are permeable. A coating of lubricant on the inside of the hoses improves the sealing and reduces refrigerant loss significantly, The lubricant is distributed by refrigerant flow controlled by the compressor.

 

[sptrawler]

Yes, always recommended. Though few owners remember to do it. Some manufacturers, like Nissan, used to have the A/C compressor operate when selecting Reverse.

It doesn't matter the quality or how good the refrigerant hoses are, they are permeable. A coating of lubricant on the inside of the hoses improves the sealing and reduces refrigerant loss significantly, The lubricant is distributed by refrigerant flow controlled by the compressor.

Spot on @JohnDe your post is a good heads up for members, even home A/C's should be given a run an a regular basis, otherwise when you need them they don't work, for the reasons you have covered.

 

[qldfrog]

As if neither the motors or the batteries need cooling in EV?
More a matter of design not (yet) good enough to get this extra heat back into the cabin at will

And for more details on thermal mgt for EV:

EV Thermal Management or Cooling EVs - Lubes'N'Greases

Future analysts will point to 2019 as the start of the groundswell in electric driving, certainly in terms of new models. In 2018, virtually all major manufacturers presented a mass-market battery electric vehicle, including PSA and Volkswagen Group. In China, the push for BEVs continued...

www.lubesngreases.com

Plenty of heat available to warm the habitacle..but not as easy as pumping air from an ice engine room

 

[JohnDe]

And for more details on thermal mgt for EV:

EV Thermal Management or Cooling EVs - Lubes'N'Greases

Future analysts will point to 2019 as the start of the groundswell in electric driving, certainly in terms of new models. In 2018, virtually all major manufacturers presented a mass-market battery electric vehicle, including PSA and Volkswagen Group. In China, the push for BEVs continued...

www.lubesngreases.com

Plenty of heat available to warm the habitacle..but not as easy as pumping air from an ice engine room

Heat is energy. Energy produces heat. Which uses energy more efficiently, an engine or a motor?

Thermodynamics and Combustion Efficiency​

​

Combustion engines are stupefyingly inefficient. Most diesel engines do not even have a thermal efficiency of 50%. Of every gallon of diesel burned by a combustion engine, less than half of the energy generated becomes mechanical energy.​

​

And, petrol-powered vehicles are even more inefficient, considerably more inefficient. ​

​

While it may sound like a vehicle that only converts 50% of the thermal energy it produces during combustion into mechanical energy is extraordinarily inefficient, many vehicles on the road actually waste close to 80% of the energy produced during the combustion of fuel.​

Internal combustion engine vs electric motor

Although the internal combustion engine and the electric motor are used for the same purpose, their construction and modes of operation are completely different. By comparing the two types of drive, the advantages of the electric motor become clear. The electric motor requires fewer (moving) parts. These are also less susceptible to wear and tear. This results in lower maintenance costs. Electric motors also work much more efficiently than internal combustion engines. This means that 80% of electrical energy can be converted into propulsion, whilst only 20% is lost as heat. With a internal combustion engine, on the other hand, only about 25% of the energy generated can be used for propulsion.

 

[Value Collector]

And for more details on thermal mgt for EV:

EV Thermal Management or Cooling EVs - Lubes'N'Greases

Future analysts will point to 2019 as the start of the groundswell in electric driving, certainly in terms of new models. In 2018, virtually all major manufacturers presented a mass-market battery electric vehicle, including PSA and Volkswagen Group. In China, the push for BEVs continued...

www.lubesngreases.com

Plenty of heat available to warm the habitacle..but not as easy as pumping air from an ice engine room

I think you need to get your facts a bit straighter, Yes the motor in a Tesla produces heat when its moving, but no where near the amount of heat that an Ice car does and It does idle like an ice car. Most of this waste heat is diverted to the battery to keep it at its ideal temp, because except for when its super charging or under really higher loads or in really hot weather the battery doesn't need cooling, it actually needs warming.

If there is excess heat it can be used to heat the cabin, I have tested this at the super charger when I set the climate control to 25 degrees (when it was 16 degrees outside), and I turned the A/C off but warm air was still coming out of the vents, although not as warn as if I had the heater running, but there was heat being put into the cabin.

I know you really like to try and find flaws in Ev's, but you are just wrong on this one. Think about it, there is only a small electric motor in a Tesla located between the back wheels, and that electric motor is about 90% efficient meaning only about 10% of the energy put into it gets lost as heat, however a petrol Motor is only about 40% thermally efficient meaning 60% of the energy is lost as heat.

Reclaiming some of that 60% energy lost to heat the cabin for a few months of the year is good, but it is much better to just not lose that heat in the first place, and only have to pay for the heat you actually want.

 

[rcw1]

Good morning,
Published today (26/11/22).

2022 News Corp Car of the Year finalists revealed​

Some game-changing vehicles have hit the market this year, setting new benchmarks in nearly every type of vehicle segment in Australia.
Dom Tripolone
4 min read
November 24, 2022 - 8:30PM
News Corp Australia Network

Electric vehicles may still be a rare sight on Australian roads, but they make up a large part of the field for the 25th running of News Corp’s Car of the Year.
Out of the eight finalists, three are electric vehicles and one is a hybrid, leaving just two diesel and two conventional petrol cars.

Ford’s Ranger and Everest are a triumph for a local car industry that was prematurely declared dead several years ago.
More than 2500 Australian designers and engineers helped to develop the ute and four-wheel-drive wagon, which are sold in more than 180 countries around the world. But the two diesels represent the old guard in an industry that is increasingly focused on electric vehicles.

Tesla sparked the revolution and it is represented by the Model Y. BYD, which is relatively unknown in Australia but recently overtook Tesla as the world’s biggest electric car maker, will provide stiff opposition, as will Kia with its EV6.

Nissan’s popular X-Trail, Toyota’s hybrid Corolla Cross and Subaru’s thrilling BRZ complete the field. Some top quality machines have missed the cut. The new Mercedes-Benz C-Class, a former Car of the Year winner, is not on the list. Neither are the Audi A3, Mitsubishi Outlander or Volkswagen Golf R. Here are the finalists:

Which car should win the 2022 News Corp Car of the Year?​

BYD Atto 3

Ford Everest

Ford Ranger

Kia EV6

Nissan X-Trail

Subaru BRZ

Tesla Model Y

Toyota Corolla Cross

 

[sptrawler]

BYD prices start to rise, on increase in material costs.

BYD hits new production record as Atto 3 prices rise, for some

BYD hits new EV production record in September, while a price increase in New Zealand makes Australia's Atto 3 prices a bit of a bargain.

thedriven.io

From the article:

The extended-range model has also seen a price increase of $2,000 NZD. That’s before on-road costs or subtracting NZ’s Clean Car Discount.
With prices of raw materials and transportation increasing, these prices are expected for more affordable EVs like those offered by BYD.
It’s not only BYD indicating price increases but others like Polestar have done the same with much sharper price increases in the Chinese market.
It’s currently unclear if the price increases will follow here in Australia but given what we have seen across the ditch in New Zealand, the new BYD Atto 3 in Australia is currently a bit of a bargain for anyone looking at an affordable ground-up EV.

 

[JohnDe]

How Long Does A Tesla Battery Last In Australia?

How long does a Tesla battery last in Australia? This is becoming more of a common question now that Tesla has doubled its presence on Australian roads. Teslas are everywhere! Someone recently commented that they are becoming as common as cockroaches and cane toads. As these questioners appear to be genuine, I thought I would do some research to dispel their concerns about how long a Tesla battery lasts in Australia.

My usual response is to quote the warranty of 160,000 km. But I am fast coming to the conclusion that this answer is no longer relevant. I read recently that some battery recyclers in the US are complaining that the batteries are not degrading fast enough and they need more stock. Actually, CleanTechnica wrote about this way back in 2016.

There are very few Teslas that have done high mileage in Australia. Until the advent of the Model 3 three years ago, Teslas were quite rare on our roads. However, a request for information in the Tesla Owners Club of Australia Facebook page revealed evidence that Tesla batteries are outlasting and outperforming their original expectations.


How long does a Tesla battery last?
Mark Tipping, National President of the Tesla Owners Club of Australia, responded: “My 2015 Model S P85D has driven 271,000km. Tesla recently advised me that the HV leads between battery and motor have some corrosion and they are replacing them under warranty. I didn’t know but an alert was sent by the car to Tesla!! The battery reports 6.9% degradation.
My other MS P100DL+ has done 200,000 km and I recently stretched that to a 600+ km range in Central Oz. Battery degradation is simply not a reality in a modern well managed EV.”

The owner of a Model S, Model 3, and Model Y reports that he has driven over half a million kilometers in his 2018 Model S. He does airport pickups and dropoffs in the Byron area and has probably done the highest number of kms in Australia. But, we still don’t know how long a Tesla battery lasts!

David Nye reports that his first S85 bought in February 2015 has now driven 312,000 km with about 10% battery degradation. “Actually, most degradation happens in about the first 12 months or so. It then levels off pretty dramatically,” David adds.

These answers defy the FUD-creating Facebook posts that allege that a Tesla battery will have to be replaced after 8 years (the warranty period). That’s equivalent to saying that an ICE engine only lasts as long as the warranty. This is then added to speculation that a battery pack may cost up to $30,000. Maybe we should stop calling it FUD and call it future fear coupled with massive ignorance and misinformation. FFMIM?

We also encounter confusion between the 12-volt battery used in most ICE cars (and Teslas) and the long-range battery in a Tesla. ICE car batteries die, dead, like a dodo. EV car batteries have a different chemistry and better management, so they degrade. You won’t stop dead on the highway or get stuck in your garage waiting for the RACQ.

Anecdotal comments from other countries talk of taxis in Scandinavia that have achieved over 750,000 km; and ones in Holland that have done over 900,000 km. Even in New Zealand there are Model S’s that have exceeded the warranty period with minor degradation: a 2014 Model S P85+ with 150,000 km (6% degradation) and a 2015 Model S P90 with 170,000 km on the clock and about 8% loss of range shown on the dash.

As for my Tess, we have only had her 3 years and driven over 90,000 km. Due to an over-the-air update to our battery management software, far from having battery degradation, we now have an extra 6% of range compared to new.

So, how long does a Tesla battery last in Australia? I think the best answer you can give is: long enough.

 

[Value Collector]

Barely makes the news when it’s petrol cars, but could you imagine if this was Tesla?

Ford recalls over half a million SUVs after 20 fires break out | CNN Business

Ford has announced another SUV recall, this time impacting about 520,000 Ford Escape and Bronco Sport compacts in the United States. Potential cracks in the vehicles' fuel line could cause fires to break out under the hood of some cars, according to Ford and the National Highway Traffic Safety...

edition.cnn.com

 

[farmerge]

Tesla are looking to build more Gigafactory's, one to be announced very soon and it is possibly Canada. If Australian governments and industry put their heads together we could offer try and get into the next round a few year from now.

Imagine having a Tesla Gigafactory build in Australia. New technologies, improved capabilities for our work force, refining of our minerals in our own backyard, supplying EVs to countries in our region. We have all the raw materials. land and sun, we have the technical colleges which the Feds are going to boost with more funding.

Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.

 

[Value Collector]

Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.

Wouldn’t that be covered under warranty?

Teslas have an 8 years warranty on the battery.

 

[JohnDe]

Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.

Did your friend purchase ,a 'new' for him, second hand hybrid vehicle?

A new under warranty hybrid should have all components covered under warranty, unless the owner has done something to void the warranty.

By the time you are ready to purchase there will be a lot more options and information.

Hybrid car batteries explained

If your knowledge of batteries extends about as far as “I’m pretty sure the TV remote takes double-As”, the world of electrified vehicles - hybrids, plug-in electric vehicles (PHEVs) and pure electric vehicles (EVs) - and the batteries they use may all seem a bit foreign.

www.carsguide.com.au