Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.8%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.6%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.8%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.7%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    197
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I find it quite funny and strange that people, like Albanese, who have no practical experience of driving an EV for every day living and have not felt the challenges of charging, think that they are experts and can tell the rest of us what is required.

Range anxiety is an issue, but it is small compared to charging anxiety.

Australia does not have enough charging infrastructure, some states are an embarrassment - SA, WA, Tasmania and the NT.

The two most populous states are better covered but the number of chargers are inadequate. In Victoria I went to charge at a local Supercharger on a Saturday but there was a line of EVs waiting to charge. I drove about 15 minutes to another location and it took me 10 minutes to find the destination chargers in the local supermarket carpark. The charger was a standard type and would have taken 4 hours. I left and went back to the supercharger, that day took me 2 hours to get a 20 minute fast charge.

If governments coordinate charging infrastructure builds with business we would have charging infrastructure ready for when manufacturers become able to supply enough EVs to keep up with demand, and there would be no arguments from anti EV groups about charging problems and long distance travel.

Another example; my wife will be working 3 days a week at a winery an hour from home. She tested the route, which involved driving on the expressway. Drove there, spent some time inside, drove back and her EV consumed just under half the battery charge. Technically she will have no problem, as long as she plugs in at home. But what happens if something goes wrong? The home charging fails, or she forgets to plug in?

With an ICEV there are petrol stations everywhere, but with the EV we have only one supercharger near us and it’s in the opposite direction, which is in the city centre and always full. My wife would have to find a destination charger, which are slow. A supercharger would only need to be plugged in for 5-10 minutes for enough charge for the two way drive, whereas a destination charger would require a minimum of 30 minutes.

Demand for EVs is very high, supply is very low. Manufacturers can not build enough, China production has stalled, VW have sold all 2022 production already. Governments could slash all taxes on EVs but it’s not going to bring any more stock because there is no stock.

Any politician that give tax benefits to people that can afford a new car are just buying votes.

The money wasted on tax cuts for new EV purchases should be directed to charging infrastructure so that when the average person finally gets into an EV they won’t have any fear about using it to drive to a job in the country or going on holidays interstate.
 
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I rented a Corolla Hybrid while interstate the past few days, not a bad little car and super fuel efficient.

We did 297 km on 12 litres of fuel which cost $22.40.

The same driving in my model 3 would have cost $10.60, but still the Corolla hybrid seems way better than your average ICE.

Only bad things about the Corolla is that it’s built like an Ice car, so its full of buttons, dials, knobs, switches, gauges and shifters etc that don’t really need to be there, and seem excessive after driving a Tesla for so long, for example annoyingly it has an on/off button you have to press before you can drive and before you can lock the car, so many times I got out of the car and tried to lock it as I was walking away only to realise I had to go back and switch it off, surely it should realise that me getting out of the car, shutting the door and pressing the lock button means I want to turn the thing off.

Also, the lack of power while over taking is a bit shocking after being used to the instant power of a full electric.
 
In a word @JohnDe people are self centred dicks, they don't think beyond there own needs and wants, the ones who glue themselves to the road and are most vocal on forums mostly don't even drive an E.V and actually have window stickers saying save the whales and have the most polluting cars.
The most christian people, don't have to go to church to be christian.
Those who believe that getting an E.V if they can afford one, shouldn't need an incentive IMO, they should think that money should be spent on infrastructure to support those who can't afford an E.V with great range or haven't got the ability to just plug it in to their solar house.
Maybe it will be like phones where it is pay as you go, which isn't much good if there is no where to plug in and pay.
I'm just pleased @JohnDe that you have the same holistic view.
 
JohnDe said:
I find it quite funny and strange that people, like Albanese, who have no practical experience of driving an EV for every day living and have not felt the challenges of charging, think that they are experts and can tell the rest of us what is required.

Range anxiety is an issue, but it is small compared to charging anxiety.

Australia does not have enough charging infrastructure, some states are an embarrassment - SA, WA, Tasmania and the NT.

The two most populous states are better covered but the number of chargers are inadequate. In Victoria I went to charge at a local Supercharger on a Saturday but there was a line of EVs waiting to charge. I drove about 15 minutes to another location and it took me 10 minutes to find the destination chargers in the local supermarket carpark. The charger was a standard type and would have taken 4 hours. I left and went back to the supercharger, that day took me 2 hours to get a 20 minute fast charge.

If governments coordinate charging infrastructure builds with business we would have charging infrastructure ready for when manufacturers become able to supply enough EVs to keep up with demand, and there would be no arguments from anti EV groups about charging problems and long distance travel.

Another example; my wife will be working 3 days a week at a winery an hour from home. She tested the route, which involved driving on the expressway. Drove there, spent some time inside, drove back and her EV consumed just under half the battery charge. Technically she will have no problem, as long as she plugs in at home. But what happens if something goes wrong? The home charging fails, or she forgets to plug in?

With an ICEV there are petrol stations everywhere, but with the EV we have only one supercharger near us and it’s in the opposite direction, which is in the city centre and always full. My wife would have to find a destination charger, which are slow. A supercharger would only need to be plugged in for 5-10 minutes for enough charge for the two way drive, whereas a destination charger would require a minimum of 30 minutes.

Demand for EVs is very high, supply is very low. Manufacturers can not build enough, China production has stalled, VW have sold all 2022 production already. Governments could slash all taxes on EVs but it’s not going to bring any more stock because there is no stock.

Any politician that give tax benefits to people that can afford a new car are just buying votes.

The money wasted on tax cuts for new EV purchases should be directed to charging infrastructure so that when the average person finally gets into an EV they won’t have any fear about using it to drive to a job in the country or going on holidays interstate.
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It’s always best to just join the line waiting to super charge, they move pretty quickly, especially if there is 6 to 8 bays, there is always a few cars finishing up and getting ready to leave, it’s a bit like the self check out at coles, the line can look long, but because there is 8 checkouts it doesn’t really take that long.
 
Value Collector said:
It’s always best to just join the line waiting to super charge, they move pretty quickly, especially if there is 6 to 8 bays, there is always a few cars finishing up and getting ready to leave, it’s a bit like the self check out at coles, the line can look long, but because there is 8 checkouts it doesn’t really take that long.
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Yes, I realised that later. Though being a Saturday morning, everyone was out getting coffee and brunch, the carpark was full and I couldn’t see any room to join the line. That’s what made me decide to look for another charging location but there were no other superchargers around.

Imagine what it will be like in another 12 months as the number of EVs increases with greater pace but charging infrastructure moves at a snail’s pace.
 
JohnDe said:
Yes, I realised that later. Though being a Saturday morning, everyone was out getting coffee and brunch, the carpark was full and I couldn’t see any room to join the line. That’s what made me decide to look for another charging location but there were no other superchargers around.

Imagine what it will be like in another 12 months as the number of EVs increases with greater pace but charging infrastructure moves at a snail’s pace.
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That's exactly right, you can be smug, until your just one in the queue, jeez people irritate me. :whistling:
I can't wait until those who want incentives, before infrastructure, come back to their car and find the connector has been ripped off the side of the model 3, what a hoot that will be.
 
“As governments across the country seek to capitalise on the growing demand for critical minerals and rare earths, experts warn that, without proper investment, Australia could miss out on a share of a much larger industry: electric vehicles.”


www.abc.net.au

We 'dig them up and ship them out': Australia has critical minerals, so isn't it time for a domestic EV industry?

Australia has some of the largest critical mineral reserves in the world, but it's missing out on potentially huge profits. That's where a domestic electric vehicle industry could come in.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
JohnDe said:
Yes, I realised that later. Though being a Saturday morning, everyone was out getting coffee and brunch, the carpark was full and I couldn’t see any room to join the line. That’s what made me decide to look for another charging location but there were no other superchargers around.

Imagine what it will be like in another 12 months as the number of EVs increases with greater pace but charging infrastructure moves at a snail’s pace.
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Imagine 3 more years of Coalition policy!
Under Morrison Australia has been a backwater on most things, and it has been the States stepping up to fill the void.
The question of why we are where we are has a really simple answer - and it should not be "that's not my job."
Although Scotty from Marketing might be able to update this classic message ...
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Aside from various apps that tell you where chargers are, there's no national roadmap telling us where they are going to pop up next. Nor is there any coordination between States to ensure crossing borders is a straightforward matter.

As I said a long way back, if you want to enjoy an EV for long trips then buy a Tesla. But if you are the average consumer with a round trip of less than 50km each day then overnight charging will be fine 99% of the time.

Right now EV ownership and aspiration is barely vote winning, so waving around a few hundred million as purchasing incentives gets Brownie/Greenie points but not much more. It really boils down to having no hard target to reach CO2 zero emissions and therefore no need to worry about tangible policies to help get us there. In another thread there was a comment about whether or not the government has a laissez faire approach to energy/electricity and I would say that's about right. There are "Plans" but nobody is taking responsibility to turn them into actions. So again we have States stepping in to do their bit, but without coordination and, therefore, without consistency.

Changing the subject to ICEVs, before flying back to Brisbane my brother went to fill his car with petrol at Costco's cheaper fuel outlet near the Perth Airport. But as the queue was back to Dunreath Drive roundabout he gave it a miss. The point here is that it looks like ICEV drivers are now willing to queue for hours to get cheap petrol!
 

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"Most people are already aware of the “supply chain crisis” that has plagued the world since 2020. Unfortunately, the supply chain has not fully recovered."

More reason why planning infrastructure builds is required, we can't be wasteful with different companies putting up all sorts of charging infrastructure in random locations. In-depth planning is required, so as to be efficient with what is available.

Build the best charging infrastructure possible, keep our tax dollars in our country by paying our workers to build.

How the Semiconductor Shortage Will Affect the Electric Vehicle DCFC Supply Chain

Most people are already aware of the “supply chain crisis” that has plagued the world since 2020. It started with mass buying of essentials during the COVID pandemic, and only worsened as the pandemic brought the world to a screeching halt with a combination of lockdowns, life changes and deaths. With vaccines now readily available and increasingly common, various sectors of the world economy are hoping to return to business as usual or at least as close to it as they can manage.

Unfortunately, the supply chain has not fully recovered. Worse — shortages of many necessary components may increase at the same time businesses are overrun with a deluge of too much stock. The result is global anxiety about the supplies that companies need to do their jobs. This is true almost everywhere…including the electric vehicle industry.

A World That Wants EVs​

Other businesses have already covered how the supply chain crisis is affecting the EV market itself. The lithium shortage, in particular, is a huge worry, as lithium is a necessary component of the batteries that make EVs run. But there’s another issue that’s just as worrying: shortages of EV chargers.

Many countries (the United States, especially) have voiced interest in dotting their landscapes with EV charging infrastructure to help encourage the adoption of green vehicles. President Biden recently announced a $5 billion plan to do just that. But those are plans that may have to go on hold, as the very supply chain issues that hurt every other industry devastate EV chargers. This is especially true of level 3 chargers — dubbed direct current fast chargers (DCFC).

Technically speaking, DCFCs include any rapidly charging station that uses direct current. While there are chargers inside this group outside of “level 3” chargers (including the new level 4 chargers), the overwhelming majority, at the moment, are level 3 chargers. In any case, level 3 chargers are a subgroup of DCFCs. As such, anything that affects the latter will affect the former.

While there are many factors involved in this, the most relevant is the supply of a single, crucial component: semiconductors.

Semiconductors: The Core of the Digital Age​

Semiconductors, more than perhaps any other technological innovation, are responsible for our digital world. We won’t go into the technological and engineering aspects, but suffice it to say, semiconductors are as necessary for electronics as flour is for bread.

And unfortunately, semiconductors are among the most hard-hit resources in the supply chain crisis. In fact, googling “supply chain” will likely give you an article devoted to the semiconductor shortage on the first page. The U.S. Department of Commerce has a page dedicated to it, and other outlets are concerned, specifically, with its impact on the car market.

Semiconductors and EV Chargers​

By their very nature, EV chargers are stellar pieces of technology, as are the electric vehicles they charge. The problem is that they’re much more reliant on semiconductors than are, say, gas stations. Worse: Semiconductors aren’t just used in EV chargers and vehicles. They’re everywhere, from the gaming systems that saw a huge spike in demand during the pandemic to the smartphone you may be reading this on.

We live in a digital age, and the few semiconductors we have are what power it.

As such, there are many other devices that will take priority over EV chargers when the supply of semiconductors runs low.

A Possible Solution​

However, there is a potential solution to this problem: switching to a different kind of semiconductor. The overwhelming majority of semiconductors are made of silicon, which is part of the shortage. But the EV industry is already looking at an alternative: SiC (silicon carbide) and GaN (gallium nitride). These two materials have both been shown to be more effective semiconductors for EV chargers and are less impacted by the supply chain shortage.

Some Problems​

But there are three problems. The first is that these chips are more expensive. Because of this, they’re usually reserved for level 3 chargers.

The last problem is anticipatory. As various industries struggle with the supply chain crisis and shortage of semiconductors, they may be forced to look for alternatives. At which point, they’ll probably shift toward these new kinds of semiconductors. Demand will quickly outpace supply once more, no matter how much manufacturers try to keep up. The optimistic scenario says that GaN and SiC semiconductors will be able to stave off the shortage long enough for others to catch up and resolve the problem. But optimistic planning can kill a business. And even so, for the EV charging manufacturers that are increasingly looking at GaN and SiC as their primary choice for level 3 chargers, it could result in a one-two punch to their supply.

What Can You Do?​

So what can a responsible business owner interested in getting EV chargers (especially level 3 chargers) do to prepare?

We have good news and bad news on that front. The bad news is that none of us can fully predict changes in the supply chain or other upsets that could further disrupt it. The best we can do is try to be attentive and flexible.

The good news is that GaN chips and the like have roughly a 12-week lead time. The easy solution for any business is to get ahead of the curve and act now, instead of waiting for the problem to get worse. EV Connect has certified multiple stations that are powered by our management software. If you would like to learn more, contact us today!

Sources​

Fast Company - Supply Chain Issues Will Continue Well Into 2022 — With a Twist

Reuters - Factbox: World Faces Shortage of Lithium for Electric Vehicle Batteries

The Guardian - Biden Administration Plans To Spend $5bn To Build EV Charging Network Across US

U.S. Department of Commerce - Results From Semiconductor Supply Chain Request for Information

Cnet - Why the Heck Is There Still a Chip Shortage for Cars?

ChargeDevs - SiC vs GaN Semiconductors for EV Power Converters: Tech Opinion

TechRadar - How GaN Is Changing the Future of Semiconductors

Argus Media - Chip Shortage Prompts EV Makers To Shore Up SiC Supply
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JohnDe said:
More reason why planning infrastructure builds is required, we can't be wasteful with different companies putting up all sorts of charging infrastructure in random locations. In-depth planning is required, so as to be efficient with what is available.
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Just remember that over 3 years ago issues surrounding EV uptake were being formally discussed by key industry players, and our policy-blind government chose not to see the writing on the wall:
"In 2019, the Distributed Energy Integration Program (DEIP) EV Grid Integration Working Group (‘Working Group’) identified that the absence of comprehensive Vehicle-Grid Integration (VGI) standards could increase the risk of an inefficient transition to electrified transportation for consumers, potentially leading to additional costs and reduced uptake of EVs."​
Every issue covered by the above link remains unsettled today, as well as the issue of training EV charger technicians and how the network would be maintained.
While I doubt Labor - should they win the next election - will get on top of these issues, they cannot do worse than we have experienced to date. And as competent as AEMO may be in many areas of "electrification," they are not the final decision makers. As it stands it looks like industry will take over and the most cashed up players will roll out the bulk of the EV charging network at locations that deliver highest returns, as distinct from greatest consumer utility. That looks like being left to Councils and community organisations who will bid for funded chargers, and be left with nothing extra to continue their maintenance.
 
rederob said:
While I doubt Labor - should they win the next election - will get on top of these issues,
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Considering they haven't said they are going to put anything into charging infrastructure, that is probably the most intelligent political statement you've made. ?
 

Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project​


The Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project will play a significant part in improving Australia’s infrastructure and remove one of the major barriers that limits the adoption of electric vehicles (EVs).

The charging stations will enable all modern EV drivers to confidently drive between Australia’s major cities. In this project, Chargefox will secure 21 locations for the network on major driving routes across the country.

How the project works​

The Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging project is the development and construction of at least 21 ultra-rapid EV charging sites along major driving routes between Brisbane and Adelaide along the coast of Eastern Australia, and in and around Perth in Western Australia, at approximately 200 kilometres apart.

Each site will hold at least two DC charging stations. The combined power of the charging stations will be a minimum of 300 kW, with the ability for any single station to have a capacity of at least 150 kW. All sites will be powered by renewable energy, in some cases through on-site solar coupled with battery storage.

The project will allow all EV models currently available for sale in Australia to charge through its stations.
 
JohnDe said:

Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project​


The Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project will play a significant part in improving Australia’s infrastructure and remove one of the major barriers that limits the adoption of electric vehicles (EVs).

The charging stations will enable all modern EV drivers to confidently drive between Australia’s major cities. In this project, Chargefox will secure 21 locations for the network on major driving routes across the country.
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And this:

Chargefox partners with RAA to add over 530 EV charging plugs to the South Australian charging network​

Chargefox is the biggest and fastest growing open charging network in Australia for modern EVs. Their ultra-rapid charging network is a combination of investment through the Australian Motoring Services (NRMA, RACV, RACQ, RAA, RAC, and RACT) group, Wilson Transformers and Greg Roebuck (the founder of Carsales).
 
sptrawler said:
Considering they haven't said they are going to put anything into charging infrastructure, that is probably the most intelligent political statement you've made. ?
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Labor will consider how the Commonwealth’s existing investment in infrastructure can be leveraged to increase charging stations across the country and consider how other existing Commonwealth investments, including in its fleet, property and leases, can also be leveraged.

Then there's the Green's:
"The Greens’ plan would include an additional $2 billion that would be invested in a publicly owned fast-charging network, to help ensure drivers have ready access to charging infrastructure."​
​
Or this?
 
The US experience of government rebates -

are EV tax credits helping all electric-car shoppers equally? It does not seem likely. See why federal electric vehicle tax credits, which were meant to help shoppers make the switch, may only be helping those who don’t even need them.​
​
78 percent of the [EV tax credits] were claimed by people making at least $100,000 per year; 7 percent were claimed by people making at least $1 million a year.” This is according to an analysis by the Congressional Research Service.​
​
EV tax credits may also be rewarding wealthier buyers more than middle-class buyers because all-electric cars and EVs with the biggest batteries tend to offer the most credit. However, those are the same cars that tend to be the most expensive.​
​
According to one study, only 17% of EV buyers said that the EV tax credit convinced them to buy their cars—the remaining 83% claimed that they would have bought the vehicle with or without the credit.​
 
JohnDe said:
According to one study, only 17% of EV buyers said that the EV tax credit convinced them to buy their cars—the remaining 83% claimed that they would have bought the vehicle with or without the credit.
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I wonder what percentage would have bought the car with or without government incentives for charging stations?

(I am not arguing against the government incentives for charging infrastructure, just pointing out that a large number would obviously answer that they would have bought regardless)

One thing that I don’t like with the government incentivised charging locations, is that they tend to be the ones everyone is claiming are always broken, because once the company gets the incentive, there is no further incentive to keep them running, they are also small.

Where as Teslas network has 6-8 bays the majority of the time, and are well maintained because they are used regularly, and generate income for Tesla.

I accept it’s a tough chicken and egg situation, but until there is higher utilisation of these third party networks, I think they will struggle.

I like the model Ampol have said they will have eg having chargers at their regular stations, the stand alone ones can end up being forgotten.
 
​
Need for EV charging infrastructure​
​
A lack of public charging infrastructure is regularly cited as a significant barrier to EV uptake . The planning and installation of the right type of EV charging infrastructure at the right location minimises the perceived risk of 'range anxiety' and increases public awareness of EVs.​
​
Understanding how EV drivers charge their EVs is important in understanding EV charging infrastructure. A key difference between internal combustion engine (ICE) and plug-in electric vehicles is the way they are refuelled or charged. ICE vehicles are generally refuelled on a 'fill up' basis; that is, when the petrol tank is near empty the driver fills the tank to full. This is because the only place ICE vehicles can be refuelled is at a service station, which requires a specific decision to visit whilst on-route or as the sole reason for the trip.​
 
Volkswagon have announced they will release an EV ute, reinvigorating the old ”scout” brand.
The driven
Volkswagen will launch an all-electric off-road utility truck under its former sub-brand, Scout.
Volkswagen will build the new all-electric Scout range in the US for the US market. Scout will become a brand in its own right, sitting alongside the likes of Audi, Porsche, Seat, Škoda and Cupra.
Group CEO Herbert Diess said electrifying the brand provides a “historic opportunity to enter the highly attractive pick-up and R-SUV segment as a Group.”
If its as good as the Amarok ICE it will be a winner.
Mick
 
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