Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.8%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.6%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.8%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.7%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    197
It's all about the infrastructure, but the planning must come before the rhetoric.

The peak national body for carparks has criticised Labor’s plan to create an electric vehicle corridor across the Nullarbor, arguing there is no plan for how charging stations can be rolled out safely in capital cities where demand will be greatest.
Parking Australia chief executive Stuart Norman told The Australian that money was being thrown at growing demand for electric vehicles without any serious work having first been completed into pinpointing the best locations for charging stations and how they could be rolled out.

“Is the Nullarbor the best place for these? Probably not,” Mr Stuart said. “The majority of electric vehicles are going to be in and around capital cities.”

He said electric cars should be parked to charge, so most of the charging network would be needed in “private or public carparks” including inside corporate buildings across the country.

Mr Norman also argued there were critical safety issues relating to the rollout of electric vehicle charging stations which had not been properly addressed by either major party.

“This is the elephant in the room,” he said. “Carparks were designed for petrol cars. Carparks were designed for petrol engine fires. We need to look at what needs to be done if an electric vehicle catches fire.

“It can take three days to put out a fire in an electric vehicle because of the heat in the battery.”

Parking Australia is holding a major conference in Adelaide this Thursday and Friday where it will discuss how to transition carparks towards electric vehicles and what electrical work would be required.

At Labor’s campaign launch on Sunday, Anthony Albanese unveiled a plan to double the $250m pledged by the government for its future fuels fund. A $500m “driving the nation fund” would be established under a Labor government to help develop a national charging network with stations at an average interval of 150km on major roads.

Under the plan, Labor says the owners of electric vehicles should be free to drive from Adelaide to Perth, across the Nullarbor; Darwin to Broome and on to Perth; Broken Hill to Adelaide; Port Augusta to Darwin; and from Brisbane to Mt Isa and on to Tennant Creek in the NT.

Josh Frydenberg – who faces a threat from Climate 200 independent candidate Monique Ryan in his seat of Kooyong – has also pledged to his constituents that he would work with local councils to support the delivery of EV charging infrastructure as a key priority.

JOE KELLY

CANBERRA BUREAU CHIEF

 
It's all about the infrastructure, but the planning must come before the rhetoric.
They have probably been listening to the crowd that say

“Electric cars are useless until they will do 1000km a charge, and there are recharging stations every 25kms on the Nullarbor”

I reckon a partnership with coles and Woolies would be good, if every coles and Woolies had two fast chargers with two outlets on each, eg 4 charging bays, and every petrol station had 4 charging bays, that’s all you would need really.
 
More problems with infrastructure -

“Beyond a joke:” Number of busted EV chargers causes concern as uptake jumps​


Australians drivers are going electric in unprecedented numbers, despite the severe limitations of the global supply constraints, but some are finding that going on long road trips is proving a risky business because of the number of EV fast chargers that are not working.

The Driven drew attention to the issue last month, pointing out the growing number of charging stations that were broken, some of them due to flooding events, but most of them because of the lack of spare parts or slow response to maintenance.

The situation appears to have gotten worse, particularly in the non-Tesla network in Queensland, where the EV community has counted more than 40 charging stations out of action.

This has happened just as the price charged to drivers for 350kW fast-chargers jumped by 50 per cent (the price for 50kW fast-chargers remains the same.)

“It’s beyond a joke,” wrote one frustrated driver on one EV owners’ forum.

“When the prices are going up and the serviceability has gone down, one must question what is behind all of this,” wrote another.
One EV owner pointed out that while the extensive Tesla supercharging network is dependable, many “legacy” car makers are dependent on third party networks that are not proving reliable.

It’s now a serious problem, particularly as the recent Easter holidays saw increasing numbers of families hit the road in the first holiday break that was fettered by the Covid pandemic in two years.

But for those driving an electric car, particularly if they were not able to access the well maintained Tesla network, hitting the open road was fraught with uncertainty as a number of fast-chargers continue to be faulted and unavailable for use.

And, as reported this week, electric vehicle sales are rising. A little more than new 20,000 EVs hit Australian roads in 2021 and the latest figures show a 150% increase from this time last year, despite a downward turn in the broader auto market.

Nigel Raynard, who operates a high-end Tesla limo service shuttling passengers between Brisbane, the Gold Coast and Sydney, knows about the EV charging problems, and is thankful that he has access to the Tesla network.

“I have (only) had to wait four times to use a Tesla Supercharger,” he said in a post on Facebook on Monday. “Three times I have seen the Superchargers shut down due to flooding.”

“To say uptime (of the Supercharger network) is phenomenal is an understatement. And the cost is very reasonable considering the redundancy offered and the speedy recovery of any units (I have seen one of the 4-8 units offline before) down is short.”

Driving more than 100,000km a year, he shared his experience of driving his Tesla Model S over 400,000km in just three years on the same set of brake pads. He estimates he has saved $100,000 in that time in fuels costs, more than justifying the investment in his ~$140,000 Model S.

But it appears that parts supply issues continue to be an issue for EV chargers, in particular those made by Brisbane’s Tritium, which has recently expanded into the US and listed on the Nasdaq.

“On checking today (price increase of up to 50%) the Chargefox network between Mackay in QLD and Sydney today has 41 units that are either offline, waiting for parts, not operational or temporarily inaccessible due to works,” said Raynard.

“Add that many of the companies offering networks offer little redundancy, or slow 7kW speeds, this is frightening for anyone considering a non Tesla who would like to road trip.”

When The Driven checked Chargefox’s app on Thursday, there were three out of six 350kW fast-chargers out of order in Zetland (inner east Sydney), Port Macquarie and Toombul in Brisbane, which was impacted by the recent floods.

Relatively new 75kW chargers located at the Gold Coast sports Centre in Carrara, Bundall Chambers in Surfers Paradise, Kurrawa Surf Club at Broadbeach and Nerang were also out of order.

Other 50kW sites out of action include those located at Zetland, Western Sydney Uni, and Dan Murphy’s Batemans Bay in NSW, the Albury Waste management centre, the Altona Civic centre, Coburn North, Monash Uni and Brunswick EV hub in Melbourne, as well as chargers in Gin Gin, Kingaroy and Cardewell in Queensland.

There are also numerous AC charging sites out of action, with charge speeds ranging from 7kW up to 22kW. These include Leopold, Grovedale, Forest Hill, Burwoodin Victoria, as well as Seven Hills, Parramatta Hyundai, Darling Park, and Lennox Head in NSW and Jimboomba, and Petrie.

The Driven understands some of these may only need a breaker reset, and has reached out to Chargefox for comment. However, as shown in the screenshots below there are numerous sites that require parts.

For Raynard, whose business relies on the reliability of chargers, the issue is critical to EV adoption. “It’s pretty hard to give them a pass with this performance,” he said in a note to The Driven. “It’s like Russian roulette.”

out-of-action-chargers-4-1160x653.jpgout-of-action-chargers-3-1160x653.jpgout-of-action-chargers-2-1160x653.jpgout-of-action-chargers-1-1160x653.jpg

 
The political parties policies on EV's.


Labor's plan will greatly benefit me, a business owner with no mortgage and I have money in the bank. Under Labor's plan I could sell the remaining ICEVs (for a profit due to shortages) and replace them with EVs at a government discount on the import Tarif and fringe benefits tax. Though I would have to wait 9 to 12 months for EV stock (maybe longer) due to shortages because China is shut down, Euro and USA manufacturers can't get battery stock or the required materials, and Tesla are pre-sold 12 months ahead.

The Coalition's plan will give me no discount to purchase a new EV. Though they will concentrate on increasing the number of charging stations across Australia and have some sort of plan for home smart charger installation. They also want to future proof commercial and long distance transport with charging and hydrogen inrastructure.

Which is better for me? The tax savings from Labor, they will leave more money in my pocket and my business account.

Which is better for my family? The infrastructure from the Coalition. My kids and young relatives are just starting off, they have more important things to spend their money on than a new car. My elderly relatives have no intention of buying a new car, most will never be able to afford one. Infrastructure is the most important thing for my family. When the young have secured their future and ready to purchase an EV they will need charging stations, because there will be a high demand as EV numbers increase. There will also need to be refuelling infrastructure for long haul transport as the vehicles are converted.
Lastly, infrastructure builds keep our tax money in our country for our workers.

It is pointless trying to artificially increase the demand for EVs when there is a world shortage. All the increased demand will do is increase the price, and any tax discounts will be eaten up by the inflation of demand price rises.

I'm old enough and comfortable enough to be able to turn down the savings that Labor is offering me, and instead take the infrastructure build for my family's future.

The government will focus on four streams of key infrastructure and technology investment:​
  • Public electric vehicle charging and hydrogen refuelling infrastructure
  • Heavy and long distance vehicle fleets
  • Light vehicle commercial fleets
  • Household smart charging
The Coalition plans to fund 50,000 charging stations in Australian homes, in a bid to encourage more people to buy electric vehicles.​
The strategy does not include subsidies or tax incentives that would make electric vehicles more affordable.​

How do they plan to do this?​

As part of the discount, Labor will exempt electric cars below the luxury car tax threshold ($79,659 in 2021-22) from:​
  • Import tariffs: A 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars
  • Fringe benefits tax: A 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use
The federal opposition's aim with this cut-off is to encourage car manufacturers to import and supply more affordable electric models in Australia.​
Labor will also consider how the Commonwealth's existing investment in infrastructure can be leveraged to increase charging stations across the country.​
 
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@JohnDe which is the biggest vote grabber? The thought of money in the punters pocket, or infrastructure to help everyone. :rolleyes:

Most times it's the money in the pocket.

The problem is that the money will only go to those that can already afford an EV. And with the false hope that more demand will sway vehicle manufacturers to send more EVs to Australia, even though there is a world shortage with all buyers across the globe on a waiting list. The only way some manufacturers will send us more EVs is that they will get a higher sale price than other markets, it would also open the flood gates on all sorts of inappropriate product for our market.

I hope that people see that Australia must first build the foundation for EVs, get the power grid sorted, build the charging infrastructure.

We still have about 5 years before vehicle manufacturers will be able to supply enough product to cover demand. When that happens the price of EVs will naturally fall.

Governments that discount new cars will cause used car prices to plummet, this will hurt the people less able to buy new and with the greater debt burden.

The line "but more new sales will create more used EVs" will take 2 to 4 years to eventuate, most new car buyers keep their car for 3 plus years.
 
Labor's plan will greatly benefit me, a business owner with no mortgage and I have money in the bank. Under Labor's plan I could sell the remaining ICEVs (for a profit due to shortages) and replace them with EVs at a government discount on the import Tarif and fringe benefits tax. Though I would have to wait 9 to 12 months for EV stock (maybe longer) due to shortages because China is shut down, Euro and USA manufacturers can't get battery stock or the required materials, and Tesla are pre-sold 12 months ahead.

The Coalition's plan will give me no discount to purchase a new EV. Though they will concentrate on increasing the number of charging stations across Australia and have some sort of plan for home smart charger installation. They also want to future proof commercial and long distance transport with charging and hydrogen inrastructure.

Which is better for me? The tax savings from Labor, they will leave more money in my pocket and my business account.

Which is better for my family? The infrastructure from the Coalition. My kids and young relatives are just starting off, they have more important things to spend their money on than a new car. My elderly relatives have no intention of buying a new car, most will never be able to afford one. Infrastructure is the most important thing for my family. When the young have secured their future and ready to purchase an EV they will need charging stations, because there will be a high demand as EV numbers increase. There will also need to be refuelling infrastructure for long haul transport as the vehicles are converted.
Lastly, infrastructure builds keep our tax money in our country for our workers.

It is pointless trying to artificially increase the demand for EVs when there is a world shortage. All the increased demand will do is increase the price, and any tax discounts will be eaten up by the inflation of demand price rises.

I'm old enough and comfortable enough to be able to turn down the savings that Labor is offering me, and instead take the infrastructure build for my family's future.

The government will focus on four streams of key infrastructure and technology investment:​
  • Public electric vehicle charging and hydrogen refuelling infrastructure
  • Heavy and long distance vehicle fleets
  • Light vehicle commercial fleets
  • Household smart charging
The Coalition plans to fund 50,000 charging stations in Australian homes, in a bid to encourage more people to buy electric vehicles.​
The strategy does not include subsidies or tax incentives that would make electric vehicles more affordable.​

How do they plan to do this?​

As part of the discount, Labor will exempt electric cars below the luxury car tax threshold ($79,659 in 2021-22) from:​
  • Import tariffs: A 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars
  • Fringe benefits tax: A 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use
The federal opposition's aim with this cut-off is to encourage car manufacturers to import and supply more affordable electric models in Australia.​
Labor will also consider how the Commonwealth's existing investment in infrastructure can be leveraged to increase charging stations across the country.​
The U.K is having exactly the problem we are talking about @JohnDe and our problem is 1,000 times bigger than theirs.

 
The U.K is having exactly the problem we are talking about @JohnDe and our problem is 1,000 times bigger than theirs.


I think at one stage, the pro EV need to be realistic: the real issue is $, then absence of model suited to demand..no 4wd ute or farm workhouse..just miriads of EV corrolas clones with an extra 50k on price tags which is bloody a lot for a big screen on the drivers seat.
The rest is trivial ..most people have 2 cars so as long as you can drive back home on a charge, who cares about chargers...
Give me an EV or hybrid at 35k or a work ute ev at 50k and you get a sale even if just ev at 35k, then 8 keep ute and go shopping in ev.....
$ $ $
 
The U.K is having exactly the problem we are talking about @JohnDe and our problem is 1,000 times bigger than theirs.



Looks like the UK government have committed a lot of dollars for charging infrastructure, but is there a plan?

The USA example is what we don't want to follow. They have a good number of charging stations, but they have been installed in poor locations, with no coordination with the several companies and government on the best locations, numbers and charging type. Maintenance is also an issue, with charging stations regularly failing and long repair times.
 
The WA government announced -

  • WA Government to allocate $36.5 million for zero emissions vehicle rebates
  • $22.6 million committed to improve EV charging infrastructure
The second part is a start, but why does the government feel the need to give tax rebates to people that can afford a new car? Use that money and build a strong power grid and charging infrastructure. That will give people confidence to get an EV.

 
The second part is a start, but why does the government feel the need to give tax rebates to people that can afford a new car? Use that money and build a strong power grid and charging infrastructure. That will give people confidence to get an EV.
Surely the fact that people can't get their hands on decent EVs means we don't have to worry about demand. That's happening while we know there is a pathetic charging infrastructure, so the problem is a bit like "range anxiety" in that it's more a perception than a reality.

From what I have gleaned the bigger problem with chargers is getting them repaired. And the solution is really simple if each of the State/Territory automobile clubs are given responsibility and recompense to employ and train staff to get the job done. I reckon even @sptrawler could be given a new lease of life as one who fixes up charging units, even if just to enjoy the acronym.

An alternative of sorts to the problem of subsidising more-expensive EVs is to reduce the luxury car tax starting point to something like $50k, while simultaneously scaling EV purchasing incentives in price range increments up to $50k. Under such an arrangement the highest level of incentive would be offered to EVs under $30k (yes - there are none now, but they will surely come with enough incentive) and progressively reduce until the $50k cap is hit.
 
The reality is people are spending $50k+ on the most popular vehicles now, so price isn't the issue, the issue is convenience.
If there is plenty of charging options, people will buy the E.V's, taxpayers money can be much better spent, even if it is only to reduce debt IMO.
But if you are going to push for E.V subsidies, that's fine I just received an SMS from the car supplier that mine hasn't even been given a VIN number yet, so it isn't even on the production line.
Any subsidy will be gratefully accepted, I would rather see the money go to infrastructure for everyone, but I guess I should just adopt the me, me , me attitude of you blokes. ?
 
The reality is people are spending $50k+ on the most popular vehicles now, so price isn't the issue, the issue is convenience.
You mean they are prepared to spend a lot to be even more inconvenienced?
If there is plenty of charging options, people will buy the E.V's, taxpayers money can be much better spent, even if it is only to reduce debt IMO.
Hold on, people are buying EVs, to the point some will be waiting up to a year to get them.
But if you are going to push for E.V subsidies ...
I have been consistent in my points regarding how to better target subsidies so they would be mostly available for an end of the market that less well-off people would tap in to.
Any subsidy will be gratefully accepted, I would rather see the money go to infrastructure for everyone, but I guess I should just adopt the me, me , me attitude of you blokes. ?
I actually write to political parties about their policies being ineffective when I am not trying to educate you. However, given that industry's big players cannot get through to government that they need better policies to improve NEV uptake, my voice is very much in the wilderness.
That will change markedly when NEV ownership is upwards of 20% and their collective voice can sway election outcomes.
 
You mean they are prepared to spend a lot to be even more inconvenienced?

The Top-Selling Cars in Australia​

Posted by Dean Heckscher 04/05/2022


Buying a new car can be an exciting time, but with plenty of options on the market, it can quickly become a bit overwhelming. To help narrow down the search, the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries releases a monthly report on the top-selling cars in Australia, showing which models are proving most popular on our roads. Check this page for regular updates on the best-selling cars, with April 2022 top-sellers listed below:
  1. Toyota Hilux
  2. Ford Ranger
  3. Toyota RAV4
  4. Mazda CX-5
  5. Isuzu D-MAX
Hold on, people are buying EVs, to the point some will be waiting up to a year to get them.
So why give incentives to buy them?

I have been consistent in my points regarding how to better target subsidies so they would be mostly available for an end of the market that less well-off people would tap in to.
The less well off will no doubt be buying entry level E.V's or E.V's that have depleted range due to battery degradation and are second hand, so charging infrastructure will be more useful to them, as they will have far less range.
How you think a subsidy for a wealthy person to buy an E.V, is better directed than infrastructure for the pleb who has a second hand E.V that will need more charging options is better focused, just shows the elite left wing mentality at its best IMO.

But I do love the banter. :xyxthumbs
 
I would love to hear how the politician's throwing money at people wanting to purchase an EV will get stock over to Australia.

"At the moment, there are simply not enough electric vehicles being made to meet that demand."

"Volkswagen, the largest car manufacturer in the world, recently announced it had sold out of electric vehicles in the US and Europe for the rest of 2022. Ford’s E-Transit sold out before it had even started making them.

These backlogs will take a long time to clear, and will be a major headache for everyone concerned. Manufacturers and customers will be frustrated, while politicians relying on electric vehicles for the future of transport policy may need to adjust their expectations and demands."


Electric car supplies are running out – and could drastically slow down the journey to net-zero

Published: May 11, 2022

The road map to replacing old fashioned carbon emitting cars with electric vehicles is well developed – at least in theory. All the major car makers (and even some of the smaller ones) are publicly committed to electric.

But actually buying a new electric car? That’s another matter entirely.

Volkswagen, the largest car manufacturer in the world, recently announced it had sold out of electric vehicles in the US and Europe for the rest of 2022. Ford’s E-Transit sold out before it had even started making them.

Even the most basic (lower specification) version of Tesla’s Model 3 vehicle will now not be delivered for over a year, despite the company being capable of the largest production volumes in the world – a recent halt in production in Chinanotwithstanding.

Turn the clock back to 2019, just when the electric vehicle revolution was really getting going in terms of sales figures, and Tesla had stockpiles of cars in the UK they could deliver to customers within days. Now, even though they can produce vastly more vehicles, you will likely wait a long time for delivery of a new one.

For now, then, motorists who aspire to own a brand new electric vehicle will struggle to move forward. So too will those governments who have plans to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars. In Norway for example, a ban is due to come into force in 2025; in the UK, it is 2030.

These targets rely in large part on the usual cycle of vehicle replacement. And for old vehicles to be replaced by new ones, the supply needs to be at a level that can replenish those being scrapped, as well as allowing for some growth in demand.

At the moment, there are simply not enough electric vehicles being made to meet that demand. I am involved in ongoing research looking into how and when various firms are replacing their old internal combustion engine vehicles with electric ones – and one of the major barriers seems to be sourcing them. Government targets for roads full of electric vehicles may soon seem hopelessly unrealistic.

End of the road?​

So what has gone wrong? To begin with, in the early days of electric vehicles, manufacturers were playing their cards safe. This was a new and unknown world for them, and it wasn’t clear if other competing technologies (such as hydrogen power) might be more popular with consumers. But batteries won out, and consumer demand – helped along by those plans to ban petrol and diesel – soared.

Current issues have been brought on in part by COVID-19 affecting global supply chains and a shortage of semiconductors, a vital component of modern vehicles.

In spring 2022, Tesla had to close its Shanghai factory for three weeks due to lockdowns in China. Before that, it was producing around 2,000 cars per day for the Asian and European markets, so may have lost production of around 42,000 vehicles.

This equates to around three months’ supply for a market like the UK. And just when it got the factory back open, it had to reduce production due to supply chain issues.

This is because Tesla doesn’t make all the parts to build the cars in the one factory (although it produces more than the industry average), so as the factories that supply Tesla also shut due to lockdowns, the necessary parts do not arrive. CEO Elon Musk has now suggested his company may stop taking orders, telling the Financial Times: “The frustration we’re seeing from customers is being unable to get them a car.”

He added: “We are actually probably going to stop taking orders beyond a certain period of time because some of the timing is a year away.”

Again, it is certainly not just Tesla that is affected. Semiconductor issues are ongoing, and many vehicles are being shipped without features, or parked in fields waiting for parts.

These backlogs will take a long time to clear, and will be a major headache for everyone concerned. Manufacturers and customers will be frustrated, while politicians relying on electric vehicles for the future of transport policy may need to adjust their expectations and demands.

Most importantly, the current situation is a terrible blow for global efforts to reduce carbon emissions and deal with climate change.

Pushing back important targets on road vehicles could be catastrophic for the planet, but we still need vehicles. We may now have to shift towards using fewer cars through more ride-sharing, or look to alternative forms of transport, and even converting older cars to electric. If we don’t, the drive to net-zero could soon be running on empty.

 
I would love to hear how the politician's throwing money at people wanting to purchase an EV will get stock over to Australia.
You're missing the point, it is about the politicians future income, not about what works for the chooks, just keep feeding the chooks what they want to eat. ?
If we had politicians that wanted to improve Australia, we wouldn't spending hundreds of billions on more infrastructure to encourage people to live in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth.
We would be spending that money to irrigate the North of Australia and develop whole new industries and opportunities for young people to grow businesses and futures, rather than thrashing around in a cesspit of house flipping in Sydney/ Melbourne.
But obviously that isn't schick or trendy.
 
I would love to hear how the politician's throwing money at people wanting to purchase an EV will get stock over to Australia.
The main issue here is that very few production lines are set up for RHDs.
"At the moment, there are simply not enough electric vehicles being made to meet that demand."

"Volkswagen, the largest car manufacturer in the world, recently announced it had sold out of electric vehicles in the US and Europe for the rest of 2022. Ford’s E-Transit sold out before it had even started making them.
Volkswagen produce less than 10% 0f all EVs, but at least they are decent cars:
Plug-in car sales in Q1 2022 (vs previous year):
  1. Tesla: 310,411 and 15.5% share (vs 16%)
  2. BYD: 285,849 and 14.3% share
  3. SAIC (incl. SAIC-GM-Wuling): 170,454 and 8.5% share
  4. Volkswagen Group: 154,824 and 8.8% share (vs 12%)
  5. Geely-Volvo: 110,253 and 5.6% share
These backlogs will take a long time to clear, and will be a major headache for everyone concerned. Manufacturers and customers will be frustrated, while politicians relying on electric vehicles for the future of transport policy may need to adjust their expectations and demands."
That will be the case everywhere except China.
Once BYD crank up their RHD production lines they will have cars that land in Australia from $30k upwards... only to be made less affordable by the many taxes and fees levied. I suspect BYD's success will be quickly capitalised on by other Chinese automakers.
 
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