Electric cars?

[rederob]

Where it does get complex is when a state decides to impose a tax on a particular type of vehicle on the basis that it's not contributing enough to federal taxation revenue.

That idea would seem incredibly far fetched if not for it having actually been done.

"Complex"?
I prefer irrational.
One nation with Hansonite ONE NATION EV policies!
Apologies, they have no EV policies.
Oh, I was right after all.

 

[JohnDe]

The new car supply issue to continue for a long time yet, lets get the incentives going, if you have to wait you might as well get a prize. ?


Supply of new cars in Australia has dropped significantly over the past two years, while prices and wait times have steadily ballooned over the same period.

It gets better. The next possible Prime Minister doesn't bother to monitor the cash rate and unemployment levels, hasn't driven an EV for everyday travel and holidaying, and so doesn't know the challenges of charging, but wants to give a tax break on EVs because somehow that will increase the numbers when there is a world shortage.

They call it a "discount". People that can afford a new EV get this discount, and at the same time tax revenue is reduced but spending goes up. Where will that lost tax revenue come from? Don't worry about that, or the cash rate. Not now anyway, we'll all find out after the election.

My guess is that if they are going to cut taxes for EVs to try and magically increase the numbers, they're also going to make it harder to buy ICEVs by adding or increasing a tax. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon.

A Labor Government will introduce an Electric Car Discount – to make electric cars cheaper so that more families who want them can afford them, and to reduce emissions.​

​

As part of the Discount, Labor will exempt many electric cars from:​

​

Import tariffs – a 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars; and​

Fringe benefits tax – a 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use.​

 

[sptrawler]

It gets better. The next possible Prime Minister doesn't bother to monitor the cash rate and unemployment levels, hasn't driven an EV for everyday travel and holidaying, and so doesn't know the challenges of charging, but wants to give a tax break on EVs because somehow that will increase the numbers when there is a world shortage.

They call it a "discount". People that can afford a new EV get this discount, and at the same time tax revenue is reduced but spending goes up. Where will that lost tax revenue come from? Don't worry about that, or the cash rate. Not now anyway, we'll all find out after the election.

My guess is that if they are going to cut taxes for EVs to try and magically increase the numbers, they're also going to make it harder to buy ICEVs by adding or increasing a tax. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon.

Yep rolling out the 'magic pudding' that keeps on giving. ?

 

[rederob]

..., but wants to give a tax break on EVs because somehow that will increase the numbers when there is a world shortage.

There is no world shortage of EVs. There is a shortage of EVs coming into Australia and there is a huge shortage of best in class EVs.
I can go to London and buy an EV tomorrow and drive it away.
It won't be one of the high demand or betterEVs, but it will be an EV nevertheless:

Electric cars you can buy right NOW​

MG 5 EV​

MG ZS EV​

Nissan Leaf​

Renault Zoe​

Vauxhall Corsa-e​

Vauxhall Mokka-e​

Mazda MX-30​

BMW i3​

Audi e-tron​

Kia e-Niro​

Kia Soul​

Hyundai Ioniq (but not the IONIQ5!)​

​

I could do the same in China, but have the choice of over a hundred models.

My guess is that if they are going to cut taxes for EVs to try and magically increase the numbers, they're also going to make it harder to buy ICEVs by adding or increasing a tax. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon.

They could just cut the Fuel Tax Credit Scheme, better known as the diesel fuel rebate, a point made many times in this thread:

"For the 2021-22 year, Fuel Tax Credits will cost the Government a hefty $8 billion—the biggest fossil fuel subsidy in Australia. By 2024-25 it is estimated to grow to 9.8 billion. In fact, the Fuel Tax Credit Scheme cost the Commonwealth Government more than spending on the Australian Army or the Royal Australian Airforce capabilities and earned a spot in the budget’s Top 20 most expensive programs."​

You have to wonder why this relic of a program was not scrapped, or at least fine tuned, years ago. But then again you only need to look at the political party funding base to see where the problem lies.

 

[sptrawler]

The U.K supercharges E.V charging.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-to-announce-electric-vehicle-revolution

 

[JohnDe]

31.3.2022

Why do electric cars have such long waiting lists?​

Good question. Electric car buyers are facing longer than normal waiting times for a couple of key reasons - demand and supply. In some cases there is a perfect storm of increased demand with restricted supply, which is causing year-long waiting lists for comparatively humble models like the Volkswagen ID.3.

First, let's look at demand. Kia, for example, says it is not experiencing delays in production and is actually delivering the cars it was supposed to, but huge demand for models like the EV6 means the queue to get one is now up to 10 months long.

The second factor - supply constraints - is caused by a global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips. These tiny devices are found in everything from phones to electric toothbrushes and, put simply, they can't be made fast enough. The pandemic saw a massive surge in orders for laptops and printers as the global population started working remotely. This wiped out existing stocks and meant that factories around the world were asked to produce more. Except they couldn't because many were forced to close because of the pandemic. Production is now back to normal now, but industry experts reckon it could be another 10 months before supply meets demand.

Some car component factories are also located in Ukraine which has caused supply issues for obvious reasons.

How long will you need to wait?​

Porsche Taycan - 6-18 months (depending on model)
SKODA Enyaq iV - 12 months +
Mini Electric - 6 months
Tesla Model S or X - late 2023
Ford Mustang Mach E - 8 months +
BMW i4 or iX - 6 months
Volkswagen ID3 or ID4 - 6-12 months
Kia EV6 - 9 -10 months (GT-Line and S, slightly less for ‘Air’)
Cupra Born - 6 months
Hyundai IONIQ5 - 4-6 months
Peugeot e208 - 4-6 months (for some models)
Lexus UX300e - 4 months
Jaguar iPace - 4 months

For those of us wanting an electric car sooner rather than later, this doesn't make for great reading. But, if you're prepared to be flexible about the exact model of car, there are quicker ways to switch to electric. For example, Vauxhall has selected Corsa e and Mokka e models in stock, which should only take about 10 weeks. Even a specific order will only take 3-4 months. Kia can also deliver you a Soul or e-Niro in as little as 12 weeks - although the e-Niro is due for replacement in summer with the new Niro EV, so there’s an element of winding down on orders for the current model.

Tesla appears to have negotiated the chip crisis with remarkable ease. Despite having full order books for its Model 3 and Model Y, the American brand has been delivering cars in huge quantities. Tesla is also one of the only brands to show on its order pages when delivery can be expected. At the time of writing, the Model Y comes with an 8 week waiting time, which is impressive. The Model 3 can be ordered for delivery in August. That said, buyers looking at the new Model S Plaid or Model X won't be so fortunate: these two models currently aren’t listed as for sale in the UK as there is no visibility on production times.

Another way to get an electric car more quickly is to take a look at slightly older models that have less demand, such as the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. You may not be buying the very latest design, but it does mean you get to switch to electric without the wait. And if you can be flexible on colour and trim, you can find yourself zooming up the waiting list. Dealers often have cancelled orders, so it's always worth putting a call in to see what's available.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't fly ever, I only use my 4wd for rare, occasional trips not all year and 800 km's is nowhere near enough. Your attempt to make my post look like bunk ended up being bunk.

You are a dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.

I don’t care how much you fly, and as I have said multiple times I don’t care what you drive, I actually thanked you for you contributions to my investment portfolio and the additional taxes you pay.

So I am not sure why you are mad, I have just been pointing out the benefits of EV’s, and pointing out your misconceptions.

Out of interest, where in the last couple of years have you driven that was 500 miles from a power point?

 

[mullokintyre]

31.3.2022

Why do electric cars have such long waiting lists?​

Good question. Electric car buyers are facing longer than normal waiting times for a couple of key reasons - demand and supply. In some cases there is a perfect storm of increased demand with restricted supply, which is causing year-long waiting lists for comparatively humble models like the Volkswagen ID.3.

First, let's look at demand. Kia, for example, says it is not experiencing delays in production and is actually delivering the cars it was supposed to, but huge demand for models like the EV6 means the queue to get one is now up to 10 months long.

The second factor - supply constraints - is caused by a global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips. These tiny devices are found in everything from phones to electric toothbrushes and, put simply, they can't be made fast enough. The pandemic saw a massive surge in orders for laptops and printers as the global population started working remotely. This wiped out existing stocks and meant that factories around the world were asked to produce more. Except they couldn't because many were forced to close because of the pandemic. Production is now back to normal now, but industry experts reckon it could be another 10 months before supply meets demand.

Some car component factories are also located in Ukraine which has caused supply issues for obvious reasons.

How long will you need to wait?​

Porsche Taycan - 6-18 months (depending on model)
SKODA Enyaq iV - 12 months +
Mini Electric - 6 months
Tesla Model S or X - late 2023
Ford Mustang Mach E - 8 months +
BMW i4 or iX - 6 months
Volkswagen ID3 or ID4 - 6-12 months
Kia EV6 - 9 -10 months (GT-Line and S, slightly less for ‘Air’)
Cupra Born - 6 months
Hyundai IONIQ5 - 4-6 months
Peugeot e208 - 4-6 months (for some models)
Lexus UX300e - 4 months
Jaguar iPace - 4 months

For those of us wanting an electric car sooner rather than later, this doesn't make for great reading. But, if you're prepared to be flexible about the exact model of car, there are quicker ways to switch to electric. For example, Vauxhall has selected Corsa e and Mokka e models in stock, which should only take about 10 weeks. Even a specific order will only take 3-4 months. Kia can also deliver you a Soul or e-Niro in as little as 12 weeks - although the e-Niro is due for replacement in summer with the new Niro EV, so there’s an element of winding down on orders for the current model.

Tesla appears to have negotiated the chip crisis with remarkable ease. Despite having full order books for its Model 3 and Model Y, the American brand has been delivering cars in huge quantities. Tesla is also one of the only brands to show on its order pages when delivery can be expected. At the time of writing, the Model Y comes with an 8 week waiting time, which is impressive. The Model 3 can be ordered for delivery in August. That said, buyers looking at the new Model S Plaid or Model X won't be so fortunate: these two models currently aren’t listed as for sale in the UK as there is no visibility on production times.

Another way to get an electric car more quickly is to take a look at slightly older models that have less demand, such as the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. You may not be buying the very latest design, but it does mean you get to switch to electric without the wait. And if you can be flexible on colour and trim, you can find yourself zooming up the waiting list. Dealers often have cancelled orders, so it's always worth putting a call in to see what's available.

The only problem with the above is that it is a UK site and some of the cars mentioned are not even available in OZ, and the waiting times are significantly different. For instance, Hyundai has closed the order books on the IONIQ5 as it has allocated three years worth of stock.
Mick

 

[rederob]

31.3.2022

Why do electric cars have such long waiting lists?​

Good question. Electric car buyers are facing longer than normal waiting times for a couple of key reasons - demand and supply. In some cases there is a perfect storm of increased demand with restricted supply, which is causing year-long waiting lists for comparatively humble models like the Volkswagen ID.3.

First, let's look at demand. Kia, for example, says it is not experiencing delays in production and is actually delivering the cars it was supposed to, but huge demand for models like the EV6 means the queue to get one is now up to 10 months long.

The second factor - supply constraints - is caused by a global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips. These tiny devices are found in everything from phones to electric toothbrushes and, put simply, they can't be made fast enough. The pandemic saw a massive surge in orders for laptops and printers as the global population started working remotely. This wiped out existing stocks and meant that factories around the world were asked to produce more. Except they couldn't because many were forced to close because of the pandemic. Production is now back to normal now, but industry experts reckon it could be another 10 months before supply meets demand.

Some car component factories are also located in Ukraine which has caused supply issues for obvious reasons.

How long will you need to wait?​

Porsche Taycan - 6-18 months (depending on model)
SKODA Enyaq iV - 12 months +
Mini Electric - 6 months
Tesla Model S or X - late 2023
Ford Mustang Mach E - 8 months +
BMW i4 or iX - 6 months
Volkswagen ID3 or ID4 - 6-12 months
Kia EV6 - 9 -10 months (GT-Line and S, slightly less for ‘Air’)
Cupra Born - 6 months
Hyundai IONIQ5 - 4-6 months
Peugeot e208 - 4-6 months (for some models)
Lexus UX300e - 4 months
Jaguar iPace - 4 months

For those of us wanting an electric car sooner rather than later, this doesn't make for great reading. But, if you're prepared to be flexible about the exact model of car, there are quicker ways to switch to electric. For example, Vauxhall has selected Corsa e and Mokka e models in stock, which should only take about 10 weeks. Even a specific order will only take 3-4 months. Kia can also deliver you a Soul or e-Niro in as little as 12 weeks - although the e-Niro is due for replacement in summer with the new Niro EV, so there’s an element of winding down on orders for the current model.

Tesla appears to have negotiated the chip crisis with remarkable ease. Despite having full order books for its Model 3 and Model Y, the American brand has been delivering cars in huge quantities. Tesla is also one of the only brands to show on its order pages when delivery can be expected. At the time of writing, the Model Y comes with an 8 week waiting time, which is impressive. The Model 3 can be ordered for delivery in August. That said, buyers looking at the new Model S Plaid or Model X won't be so fortunate: these two models currently aren’t listed as for sale in the UK as there is no visibility on production times.

Another way to get an electric car more quickly is to take a look at slightly older models that have less demand, such as the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. You may not be buying the very latest design, but it does mean you get to switch to electric without the wait. And if you can be flexible on colour and trim, you can find yourself zooming up the waiting list. Dealers often have cancelled orders, so it's always worth putting a call in to see what's available.

I think you should have indicated that very few of those cars named above will ever be made available in Australia, so the indicated wait times are mostly irrelevant.
Also, the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 are reliant on successful online bidding, so it may be years before anyone can successfully order one.

 

[JohnDe]

The only problem with the above is that it is a UK site and some of the cars mentioned are not even available in OZ, and the waiting times are significantly different. For instance, Hyundai has closed the order books on the IONIQ5 as it has allocated three years worth of stock.
Mick

I was pointing out that there is a world shortage of EVs, due to various reasons - global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips, component factories are also located in Ukraine.

With Europe having a population of 746.4 million, China 1.402 billion and the USA 329.5 million, they are always going to get first pick of a product in short supply from their closely positioned factories.

 

[rederob]

I was pointing out that there is a world shortage of EVs, due to various reasons - global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips, component factories are also located in Ukraine.

With Europe having a population of 746.4 million, China 1.402 billion and the USA 329.5 million, they are always going to get first pick of a product in short supply from their closely positioned factories.

And I was pointing out that is not the case.
There is a global supply chain issue for lots of products including ICEVs and EVs, but you can still buy both types of vehicles, but not always what you want unless you are prepared to wait.
Both Europe and America could ship in any number of mid range Chinese EVs if they wanted to, but they don't need to. The waiting times are confined to the best EVs because there are literally hundreds of millions of people who can afford them and tens of millions wanting them sooner rather than later. There is every likelihood that this equation will be no different in 3 years times as demand for the newest and best EVs will be an ongoing issue and is unlikely to be met until EV production lines for associated manufacturers can scale up. Let's face it, Telsa demand remains through the roof despite proposing to knock out around 2 million units this year after adding 3 more gigafactories.

 

[JohnDe]

APR 11, 2022​

​

NIO, Inc. NIO recently stated that it has suspended vehicle production due to a supply chain hiatus in various cities across the country caused by the pandemic.​

​

The China-based electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer’s factories, test sites and interactive centers are located in Shanghai, and the city is presently facing another onslaught of the virus. To curb the spread, Shanghai has re-imposed lockdown and restrictions, severely affecting every aspect of the supply chain.​

​

NIO’s supplier partners in other cities like Jilin and Jiangsu have been halting production since March and are yet to recover. In light of this, the company has postponed deliveries of EVs to customers and will jointly work with suppliers to clear the bottlenecks and restart operations as soon as possible.​

​

Nonetheless, chip concerns are not likely to abate anytime soon and might lead to revenue loss for the firm. Further, high prices of raw materials like aluminum and copper are expected to clip gross margins.​

​

Recently, Toyota Motor TM also announced that it is temporarily suspending operations at a joint venture plant with FAW group in Changchun in China after a lockdown was imposed in the city last week due to a surge in COVID-19 infections. Toyota, in January, had halted activities at a joint venture plant in Tianjin, China, following the onslaught of the Omicron variant in the city.​

​

Another auto giant, Volkswagen AG VWAGY, suspended part of its operations in China amid government restrictions to combat the largest COVID-19 outbreak in the country in two years. Volkswagen also runs a joint venture operation with FAW, and has suspended production at its vehicle and component plants for a short duration.​

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/nio-halts-ev-deliveries-in-china-over-covid-led-supply-issues

 

[rederob]

APR 11, 2022​

​

NIO, Inc. NIO recently stated that it has suspended vehicle production due to a supply chain hiatus in various cities across the country caused by the pandemic.​

​

The China-based electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer’s factories, test sites and interactive centers are located in Shanghai, and the city is presently facing another onslaught of the virus. To curb the spread, Shanghai has re-imposed lockdown and restrictions, severely affecting every aspect of the supply chain.​

​

NIO’s supplier partners in other cities like Jilin and Jiangsu have been halting production since March and are yet to recover. In light of this, the company has postponed deliveries of EVs to customers and will jointly work with suppliers to clear the bottlenecks and restart operations as soon as possible.​

​

Nonetheless, chip concerns are not likely to abate anytime soon and might lead to revenue loss for the firm. Further, high prices of raw materials like aluminum and copper are expected to clip gross margins.​

​

Recently, Toyota Motor TM also announced that it is temporarily suspending operations at a joint venture plant with FAW group in Changchun in China after a lockdown was imposed in the city last week due to a surge in COVID-19 infections. Toyota, in January, had halted activities at a joint venture plant in Tianjin, China, following the onslaught of the Omicron variant in the city.​

​

Another auto giant, Volkswagen AG VWAGY, suspended part of its operations in China amid government restrictions to combat the largest COVID-19 outbreak in the country in two years. Volkswagen also runs a joint venture operation with FAW, and has suspended production at its vehicle and component plants for a short duration.​

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/nio-halts-ev-deliveries-in-china-over-covid-led-supply-issues

You keep posting about lots of EVs not available in Australia.
Should I link to the many American made EVs that are also not coming?
Or is that not especially helpful?

Yes, since 2020 there has been a constant stream of supply chain issues, and these affect lots of products. But if they are not slated to come here then it's hardly worth a mention.

 

[Value Collector]

@Smurf1976
Funny thing just happened, you mentioned that you don’t see many Excels around anymore despite that they were everywhere not many years ago, Well I just saw one and Rene weed your comment, then realised it was broken down being helped by road side assistance, I instantly laughed as I realised even it’s days must be numbered.

 

[sptrawler]

Took the Ionic 5 for a run today, was it nice, yes, would I buy it probably not. It used about 19Kw/100klm, said I had 340 klm of range at the start when I worked it out the actual range I had it would have been 310klm. If I had actually had 340 I would have had about 100kl left, it said I had just under 70 left. 90% was on the highway at 110kl/hr.
I didn't like the instrument panel, seats were comfortable, very quiet around town, a similar noise level to the Jeep on the highway mainly tire noise, the lane assist would end up driving me mad so i would have to learn how to switch that off.
Interesting day, I think for me the Kona fits better because it is just like getting into an Ice car so it's familiar, the Ionic was a bit like driving an arcade machine, maybe I'm showing my age.

 

[mullokintyre]

Sptrawler, what are they like to get into?
One of the problems I have with an artificial hip, an artificial knee and soon to get a second artificial hip, getting in and out of cars is a bit of an effort. Got out of the Imprezza I drove cos i had to get down INTO it, whereas my Ranger ute I climb up via the side steps. The wife's CX5
allows me to just slide my fat ar$e into it quite easily.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Sptrawler, what are they like to get into?
One of the problems I have with an artificial hip, an artificial knee and soon to get a second artificial hip, getting in and out of cars is a bit of an effort. Got out of the Imprezza I drove cos i had to get down INTO it, whereas my Ranger ute I climb up via the side steps. The wife's CX5
allows me to just slide my fat ar$e into it quite easily.
Mick

The seat height is good, Ive got a replaced right hip and right knee, also recovering from a broken right tibia, so I know what you are talking about that is the reason I didnt get the Tesla 3.
The only issue with the Ionic in that regard is there is a lip below the door, that the back of your calf touches when you stand up, that may be an issue in winter when there is dirt and crap on there, it may well put a mark on the back of your pants, other than that it is very easy to get in and out of. It is a lot bigger car in the flesh, than in the pictures.

 

[rederob]

it may well put a mark on the back of your pants, other than that it is very easy to get in and out of. It is a lot bigger car in the flesh, than in the pictures.

Have you tried adjusting your screen size?

 

[sptrawler]

Where it does get complex is when a state decides to impose a tax on a particular type of vehicle on the basis that it's not contributing enough to federal taxation revenue.

That idea would seem incredibly far fetched if not for it having actually been done.

I assume you are talking about the State Governments putting a tax on E.V's and saying it covers the loss of fuel excise, when in fact fuel excise is a Federal tax.
The one thing I do like about that @Smurf1976 I would prefer them to tax E.V's at a State level, as they are paying incentives on a State basis, therefore the State taxpayers are paying their own incentives and paying their own running cost taxes.

What would annoy me would be if the Feds gave taxpayer incentives to buy E.V's, the higher populated East coast areas would benefit far more than regional and remote areas.
At the moment E.V's are not practical for regional areas and I can say that for a fact, I took one for a run yesterday one of the best E.V's available, on the way back we pulled into the" Charge Fox" charger at Bunbury and it wouldn't work.
So if I was going to Perth it would have been touch and go, or I would have had to risk a detour and hope the one at Harvey was working. As I was only going to Mandurah it didn't matter.

Going up the West Coast on the "charge fox" map there isn't one in Geraldton so you are looking at 700kl between Lancelin and Denham, the next charge fox after that is Broome, on the great northern highway from Perth to Port Headland there are no charge fox outlets.

The Northern Territory doesn't appear to have any charge fox outlets and South Australia seems to only have them in Adelaide's immediate vicinity.

So if the Federal Government gave incentives, the taxpayers in the areas mentioned would be subsidising the East Coast residents, who just happen to be the ones who always seem to be bleating "woe is me, I want more", like a broken record. ?

 

[Value Collector]

I assume you are talking about the State Governments putting a tax on E.V's and saying it covers the loss of fuel excise, when in fact fuel excise is a Federal tax.
The one thing I do like about that @Smurf1976 I would prefer them to tax E.V's at a State level, as they are paying incentives on a State basis, therefore the State taxpayers are paying their own incentives and paying their own running cost taxes.

What would annoy me would be if the Feds gave taxpayer incentives to buy E.V's, the higher populated East coast areas would benefit far more than regional and remote areas.
At the moment E.V's are not practical for regional areas and I can say that for a fact, I took one for a run yesterday one of the best E.V's available, on the way back we pulled into the" Charge Fox" charger at Bunbury and it wouldn't work.
So if I was going to Perth it would have been touch and go, or I would have had to risk a detour and hope the one at Harvey was working. As I was only going to Mandurah it didn't matter.

Going up the West Coast on the "charge fox" map there isn't one in Geraldton so you are looking at 700kl between Lancelin and Denham, the next charge fox after that is Broome, on the great northern highway from Perth to Port Headland there are no charge fox outlets.

The Northern Territory doesn't appear to have any charge fox outlets and South Australia seems to only have them in Adelaide's immediate vicinity.

So if the Federal Government gave incentives, the taxpayers in the areas mentioned would be subsidising the East Coast residents, who just happen to be the ones who always seem to be bleating "woe is me, I want more", like a broken record. ?

Just out of interest, are you a member of charge fox?

Because I saw a guy in an electric mini one day trying to use the charge fox charger and looking very frustrated so I went to try and help him and it turned out he wasn’t a member, I got him to download the app and sign up and we got it working for him though.

They are a confusing charger, you have to do all the steps in order otherwise it doesn’t work, hence why I drive past them normally and use the Tesla ones, even though charge fox is normally half the price.