Electric cars?

[rederob]

Your dishonesty does you no favours.
You made repeated claims that had no substance, lacked logic, and made claims about my posts which were patently false.
You seem clueless about how effective policies are necessary to drive the EV transition, and continued to confuse tax cuts with incentives.
I regret the time I wasted.

 

[Value Collector]

The problem that causes is two fold, firstly as the grid transitions more to renewables the off peak period will be supplied by renewable storage i.e batteries, pumped hydro etc, so unlike now where they want to keep fossil fueled generators on line for the morning peak and there is surplus power available, they actually wont want people charging overnight as that storage may be required the next day if there is low generation.
The second issue is during the day there is currently an excess of solar generation, as more and more grid sized batteries and pumped hydro facilities are installed, that excess power will be used to charge those first.
So as @Smurf1976 and I have said, what is currently the normal mode of grid operation will change considerably and also the way people are charged for using electricity will change also.

We are going to have lots of wind generation that will be running through the night.

 

[sptrawler]

We are going to have lots of wind generation that will be running through the night.

There will need to be if we are charging the E.V's with them, as @Smurf1976 has posted on numerous occasions, on the East coast very often low solar generation and low wind generation happen at the same time.
I'm all for the E.V revolution, just under no illusion that it isn't going to cause serious issues and using current grid dynamics as a guide to future grid dynamics IMO isn't accurate.

 

[JohnDe]

I regret the time I wasted.

You sir rely on intimidation & harassment to smother the views of others. As you did with sptrawler and repeated with me.

So you read an article and now you know more than the rest of us "Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate. What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG. Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and decent choice of models and price ranges."

Well I read several articles, that must make me a genius by your equation.

We are allowed our own views, to start calling one person unfriendly names says more about you than it does me.

I am involved in the automotive industry and have owned an EV since July 2021. What I see Australia lacking is planned charging infrastructure. The people I talk to on the streets want an EV but first they want the confidence and knowledge that they can drive around Australia in the same way they can with their ICEV.

You have let your one eyed politics cloud your limited knowledge of EV ownership, and listened to the managing directors of companies like VW with their newly found halo try to dictate to us.

EVs are coming, there is no stopping them.

Infrastructure is what we need

​

 

[rederob]

You sir rely on intimidation & harassment to smother the views of others. As you did with sptrawler and repeated with me.

As I did not understand many of your comments I questioned them.
For example, you made this point:

My point is that I do not want tax dollars thrown at vehicle manufacturers so that people like us can buy a cheaper EV.

And when I asked "If that's the case, show where it is so," your said:

I did, a direct quote from Albanese’s website.

After further querying you I discovered this was the direct quote:
"a $50,000 model (such as the Nissan Leaf) will be more than $2,000 cheaper as a result of removing the import tariff."

So your claim was false. Zero tax dollars go to manufacturers.
On the other hand Albanese is correct in that if the importer also passes on the exemption then that car should be cheaper to buy.
I previously pointed to other false claims you made, but rather than own them you sidestep them and now claim to be intimidated and harassed. It's called the pot calling the kettle black, and it does not wash!

We are allowed our own views, to start calling one person unfriendly names says more about you than it does me.

I have been pretty generous until now, but when people lie and refuse to acknowledge it, then I call them out.

You have let your one eyed politics cloud your limited knowledge of EV ownership, and listened to the managing directors of companies like VW with their newly found halo try to dictate to us.

I have a very strong background in policy and analysis at public and private sector levels, and I do not support Labor's poor policies as they are, frankly, pathetic. On the other hand I have been at pains to point out that our EV situation is the culmination of no plausible federal EV policies and a mish mash of State/Territory compensatory policies in lieu.

Unlike you, I don't rely on singular references to form a view, so your regular mentions of VW are totally subservient to the motor vehicle industry's views which I have both quoted from and linked. So here's yet another quote from an industry commentator:

"When it comes to distributing the limited supply of electric cars, global automotive giants are prioritising countries with stricter vehicle emissions mandates and generous tax incentives.​

That means Australia is down the queue for electric car shipments compared to other countries such as Norway, the UK, China and the US."​

I repeat that you and I share many common views on the EV front, but I have little respect for people that don't own their mistakes.

​

 

[sptrawler]

Nothing like good robust debate you guys, I'm sure everyone is getting a lot of great info through the cut and thrust.

 

[rederob]

Nothing like good robust debate you guys, I'm sure everyone is getting a lot of great info through the cut and thrust.

What we have here is analogous to the fed's lack of national energy planning affecting what needs to be done, so the States are stepping in and tidying up their issues without necessarily considering the big picture. It's not a recipe for disaster as such, but needs to be reined in and coordinated between all parties.

Back on topic, there has been a remedy I meant to post a lot earlier, but literally got a flat tyre (screw in the sidewall of the Pajero's big tyres) and $407 later was back on the road!
No price on this yet, but if you live in a unit, here's a solution:

I reckon the Chinese are already onto it so there's every chance a knockoff will be available for a lot less next year.
What the marketing blurb missed was how important this could be to those in OZ with range anxiety. For that matter I can see every RAC/NRMA service vehicle packing one.
Additionally, the device looks like a fantastic picnic or camping accessory to power things you might not usually bring simply due to electricity constraints.

 

[sptrawler]

What we have here is analogous to the fed's lack of national energy planning affecting what needs to be done, so the States are stepping in and tidying up their issues without necessarily considering the big picture. It's not a recipe for disaster as such, but needs to be reined in and coordinated between all parties.

The Feds have nothing to do with W.A's electrical system and that's the way we like it. ?
The W.A State government is installing charging infrastructure which is great, I can imagine if the Feds said you will put this in, they would be told to sod off.

Media statements | Western Australian Government

Media statements

www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au

Also what are the Feds going to do about what the manufacturers are going to supply, they haven't even standardised the equipment from manufacturer to manufacturer. Christ knows what you are suggesting? Maybe the Government just needs to make funds available so that the States can sort it out, because it the States who know their electrical systems the demographics, the distribution system, they just need the Feds to help supply funding.
Really how would the Feds have any idea, about what is required, from a State or manufacturers point of view? What big picture, they are an E.V they already have design rules for compliance.

New funding for fast-charging stations for electric vehicles

A new fund will expand access to fast-charging stations for battery electric vehicles to help consumers transition to new vehicle technologies. Applications are open until 6 April.

www.industry.gov.au

Government announces funding of EV charging stations, no subsidies - Convenience & Impulse Retailing

Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced that the Federal Government will fund 50,000 charging stations for Australian households.

www.c-store.com.au

World leading electric vehicle to grid trial in ACT

ARENA has today announced $2.4 million in funding to ActewAGL to demonstrate V2G services in Australia.

arena.gov.au

 

[JohnDe]

The issues with charging an EV when infrastructure is poor, check out the video at the 22:35 minute mark. Pretty much shows why building infrastructure should be the first priority

 

[sptrawler]

The issues with charging an EV when infrastructure is poor, check out the video at the 22:35 minute mark. Pretty much shows why building infrastructure should be the first priority

No what we need is lots more cars queued up, then the charger fairy will come and kapow an extra charger appears. ?

We have a window of opportunity while manufacturers have supply issues, to get a lot of public charging infrastructure in, every spare dollar should be spent on it. Not on giving charity handouts to people who want an E.V, talk about being entitled, I want an E.V, can you give me $5k, so I can have a holiday as well. I mean I am helping the poor people by not polluting their air. ?
The one good thing is, it doesn't matter which side of politics wins the election, the change over to E.V's will happen.
As @Smurf says the fleet turns over in about 20 years, by then manufacturers wont be supporting ICE engines and parts will become a huge issue.
I went to a mates funeral last Monday and drove through an area that I used to live in, but hadn't been through there for about 20 years, there used to be a really big engine reconditioning business on a busy corner, it is now obviously closed.
I wonder how many car engine reconditioners are still in business these days, I bet there isn't many.
The old days of ripping out a motor, stripping it, reboring it and regrinding the crank to fit new big ends and mains are long gone.

 

[Smurf1976]

it’s not that big of a deal to install some power points or chargers into apartment building car parks

From a technical perspective fully agree.

BUT there is a thing known as a "Body Corporate" aka "Owners Corporation" and various other terms.

Suffice to say mere mention of those terms to anyone enthusiastic about energy efficiency and so on is a bit like saying "fast food" to a nutritionist. They'll be immediately suspicious and on guard for good reason - the reputation is of finding every possible way to obstruct anything relating to energy efficiency and so on and that problem goes back at least to the 1980's.

OK, there's probably some good ones but there's a lot that seem to exist for the sole purpose of thwarting progress. Heck some even arc up about washing being hung up to dry.

So whilst I fully agree in a technical sense, I can see many running into problems in practice indeed the mainstream media ran such a story just last week:

Power struggle: Doctor forced to sell electric car after his building denied access to power point

As a doctor regularly treating patients suffering the ill effects of floods, heat and bushfires, Dr Akhil Gupta is eager not to contribute to climate change himself.

www.smh.com.au

Personally well it has long been my view that the states need to legislate to remove the power of these mobs and that's putting it rather politely.....

 

[rederob]

Also what are the Feds going to do about what the manufacturers are going to supply, they haven't even standardised the equipment from manufacturer to manufacturer.

The feds are responsible for energy policy. Manufacturers are not part of the equation!
Are you lost between Perth and Mandurah?

Maybe the Government just needs to make funds available so that the States can sort it out, because it the States who know their electrical systems the demographics, the distribution system, they just need the Feds to help supply funding.

What are you talking about? The charging network or something else?

What big picture, they are an E.V they already have design rules for compliance.

I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about!
The States do not control federal policies relating to vehicle emissions or taxes. Those policies affect the inflow of EVs, which in turn impact the rollout of EV infrastructure. That's the big picture!
Most States and Territories have stepped in to incentivise EV adoption, as that just happens to be a key jigsaw piece that fits into the larger picture which includes achieving net zero CO2 emissions, which is something else the feds don't understand.

 

[sptrawler]

The feds are responsible for energy policy. Manufacturers are not part of the equation!
Are you lost between Perth and Mandurah?

I doubt they have any say in the way Verve energy run the W.A grid.

What are you talking about? The charging network or something else?

Of course

I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about!
The States do not control federal policies relating to vehicle emissions or taxes. Those policies affect the inflow of EVs, which in turn impact the rollout of EV infrastructure. That's the big picture!
Most States and Territories have stepped in to incentivise EV adoption, as that just happens to be a key jigsaw piece that fits into the larger picture which includes achieving net zero CO2 emissions, which is something else the feds don't understand.

As you and I know the vehicle emission regulations follow the EU standards, we don't invent ones ourselves.
The inflow of E.V is limited by supply issues as you and I also know, they can give you $50k you will still have to wait for your car, so throwing money at people is just a taxpayer funded easter hamper for the rich dudes, you will have to wait till Albo gets in for that.
I'm ever hopeful, mine isn't due for another 4 months.?

 

[sptrawler]

The new car supply issue to continue for a long time yet, lets get the incentives going, if you have to wait you might as well get a prize. ?

Semiconductor shortage to last two more years, automotive giant claims

An executive at one of the world's biggest car makers has revealed a grim outlook for new car supply over the next 24 months.

www.drive.com.au

While it was originally deemed to be a relatively short-term inconvenience, car makers are now preparing customers for the possibility extended wait times could remain for some time.
"The structural undersupply will likely only resolve itself in 2024,” Arno Antlitz, chief financial officer of Volkswagen, told German outlet Boersen-Zeitung over the weekend.

"Only those who can map out their battery supply chain have the advantage at scaling in electromobility. Securing the supply chain comes with that.”
Less than a day later BMW CEO Oliver Zipse told newspaper Neue Zuercher Zeitung: "I expect us to start seeing improvements at the latest next year, but we will still have to deal with a fundamental shortage in 2023."

Supply of new cars in Australia has dropped significantly over the past two years, while prices and wait times have steadily ballooned over the same period.

 

[Smurf1976]

The States do not control federal policies relating to vehicle emissions or taxes.

Where it does get complex is when a state decides to impose a tax on a particular type of vehicle on the basis that it's not contributing enough to federal taxation revenue.

That idea would seem incredibly far fetched if not for it having actually been done.

 

[Value Collector]

It's called loving life, some go on ocean cruises, some buy lots of shoes and pretty clothes, I choose to fang it to over the dunes to my favourite fishing spots. You have your games, I have mine.

What's even the point of investments and wealth creation if all you use it for is to see a graph sloping upwards on a computer screen.

Sounds like you need to reevaluate your life bro.

If under powered Diesel engines is what you like, go for it, but Just like the V8 street car guys have learned over the last few years, they have nothing compared to their electric competitors when it comes to performance, it’s only the nostalgia for loud engines that will keep V8’s on the road, even a V8 super car can’t match the acceleration of a street legal off the shelf Tesla.

Give it a few years and I think you will find electric four wheel drives are a lot more fun to fang it in.

————————
What’s the point of my wealth creation you ask? For me it’s about being able to do what ever I want to do, which is normally international travel a few times a year, and any other bells and whistles I like without worrying about money or whether a boss will give me time off work, for me cars are just a practical Item.

 

[3 hound]

What’s the point of my wealth creation you ask? For me it’s about being able to do what ever I want to do, which is normally international travel a few times a year, and any other bells and whistles I like without worrying about money or whether a boss will give me time off work, for me cars are just a practical Item.

Your one international travel trip does more harm to the environment than a year's worth of my trips to the beach, you dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.

t’s only the nostalgia for loud engines that will keep V8’s on the road, even a V8 super car can’t match the acceleration of a street legal off the shelf Tesla.

No the V8 diesel is to keep me OFF the road where your "off the shelf Tesla" can not even go let alone perform.

And no dude I do not want high acceleration, I want the opposite you are clueless on what you post about.

How do you propose I charge my electric 4wd when I am 500 miles from the nearest power point. Carry two acres worth solar panels on the roof rack??

 

[Value Collector]

Your one international travel trip does more harm to the environment than a year's worth of my trips to the beach, you dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.





No the V8 diesel is to keep me OFF the road where your "off the shelf Tesla" can not even go let alone perform.

And no dude I do not want high acceleration, I want the opposite you are clueless on what you post about.

How do you propose I charge my electric 4wd when I am 500 miles from the nearest power point. Carry two acres worth solar panels on the roof rack??

I actually did the math a while back, and my portion of the fuel used in the plane is less than what an average person uses each year in their car, so by having an EV I still reduce my total emissions even accounting for my flights.

But your argument is bunk anyway, because obviously petrol and diesel car owners fly too, so them switching to an EV would be reducing emissions, even though they continue to fly.

Also, I never claimed my life style was carbon neutral, but of course driving a solar powered car reduces my total emissions compared to if I drove a petrol one, and when lower emissions flights are available I will take advantage of the tech too, it’s not about being perfect it’s about lowering your emissions where you can.

——————
We have been through the “what about if I am 500miles from a charger” argument on here before, There are EV four wheel drives coming out with 800 kms of range, and I am sure that will be more than enough for you.

But as I said I am fine will you making extra donations to my investment portfolio.

 

[rederob]

I doubt they have any say in the way Verve energy run the W.A grid.

I doubt they know where Western Australia is!

Of course

Of course what?
Or was that off course?
It's 2022 and EVs have been around for some years, while EV demand growth was known to be something that had to be planned for. So in late 2021 we finally get a national Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy which receives a paltry sum to fund a number of initiatives. It's been regarded as too little too late by just about every industry commentator, eg

"Car industry slams Government's EV strategy for lacking incentives and targets"​

As you and I know the vehicle emission regulations follow the EU standards, we don't invent ones ourselves.

???
Actually we can determine what our standards should be, but we won't even sign up to Euro 6:

"More than 80 per cent of the global car market now follows 'Euro 6' vehicle emission standards, including Europe, the United States, Japan, Korea, China, India and Mexico.​

But Australia has resisted signing up to the standards, which would require more stringent restrictions on pollutants in petrol, and require new cars to emit far less particulate matter than currently allowed."​

You are renown for quoting the media all the time, so have you missed this topic - a topic I have repeated and linked to in so many replies across the last few pages in this thread! Here's another one:

FFS: Coalition EV policy fizzles out with no grand plan, and no emissions limits​

The inflow of E.V is limited by supply issues as you and I also know, '''

Indeed it is, yet across the ditch a very small and more distant nation to vehicle manufacturers with a tiny car market has 3 times our EV penetration. It's not rocket science working out why.

... they can give you $50k you will still have to wait for your car, so throwing money at people is just a taxpayer funded easter hamper for the rich dudes,

I have never favoured incentives benefiting the wealthy, but the problem became a chicken and egg one for States and Territories wanting to incentivise take-up. Ay the time most incentives were being formulated there were few EVs priced under $60k and Teslas represented the bulk of potential supply. State leaders keen to show their green car credentials via incentivisation could hardly say at the time they would be for cars under $50k as they would have been laughed at. Although MsGowan has been late to the party and could say WA will rebate EVs under $40k, and work off the "Field of Dreams" principle.

Getting back to the point about our charging network, we therefore have the less well-off rightly claiming that public network funding panders to the wealthy. Fortunately Tesla can say they are part of the solution rather than the problem. But as @JohnDe notes, why aren't we using their expertise or at least their model so that some percentage of any public funding is clawed back from every EV sold.

you will have to wait till Albo gets in for that.

Shorten the odds?

I'm ever hopeful, mine isn't due for another 4 months.?

I am thinking of putting mine up for sale on Ebay for the same price as I am paying, and pocketing the rebate as a difference. Presently have 5 cars on the block and not enough garage space!

 

[3 hound]

I actually did the math a while back, and my portion of the fuel used in the plane is less than what an average person uses each year in their car, so by having an EV I still reduce my total emissions even accounting for my flights.

But your argument is bunk anyway, because obviously petrol and diesel car owners fly too, so them switching to an EV would be reducing emissions, even though they continue to fly.

Also, I never claimed my life style was carbon neutral, but of course driving a solar powered car reduces my total emissions compared to if I drove a petrol one, and when lower emissions flights are available I will take advantage of the tech too, it’s not about being perfect it’s about lowering your emissions where you can.

——————
We have been through the “what about if I am 500miles from a charger” argument on here before, There are EV four wheel drives coming out with 800 kms of range, and I am sure that will be more than enough for you.

But as I said I am fine will you making extra donations to my investment portfolio.

I don't fly ever, I only use my 4wd for rare, occasional trips not all year and 800 km's is nowhere near enough. Your attempt to make my post look like bunk ended up being bunk.

You are a dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.