Electric cars?

[SirRumpole]

Agreed there are definite limits to it. Turning waste into ethanol is sensible, it saves oil and puts the material to good use, but growing crops for that purpose specifically is highly dubious.

My point however is that done properly it won't wreck your engine but many seem to have a view that they'd rather walk than put E10 in their car. As far as they're concerned it's the devils work when in truth there's no such problem if it's done properly.

There's far too much of a religious / emotional / non-scientific approach to the entire energy issue in my view (referring to society as a whole there, especially politics).

We produce a lot of sugar cane , and if there is a choice between giving people diabetes or producing power with it , my preference is for the latter.

I don't think ethanol powered vehicles are viable long term though, EV's are going to take that market. Maybe we should start to electrify inland rail lines as well to reduce reliance on diesel.

 

[sptrawler]

we all need a target to aim for, Norway is the current leader. We don’t have to copy them, and we shouldn’t, but we can take the best examples that fit our country.

Just read an interesting article, change is happening fast, faster than most can accept or understood, including me.


ELECTRIC VEHICLES SPECIAL REPORT

“I am charging into this brave new EV world and you should too​

If you’d told me 20 years ago that I would be driving a car that could run on pure sunlight alone I would have laughed in your maniacal direction and asked you whether this vehicle would also fly and have some kind of magical screen on board that could give me access to All the Music in the World at the swipe of my finger, or via my voice command.”

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to Australias unique circumstances it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone while laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.
It is a bit like saying, why cant every country get 100% covid vaccination rates? Gibralta did it very quickly,if they could do why cant all countries lol.

 

[SirRumpole]

I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to Australias unique circumstances it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone while laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.

Hey mate, sorry to hear that. Get better soon. You will be out for Christmas hopefully ?

 

[qldfrog]

I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to Australias unique circumstances it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone while laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.
It is a bit like saying, why cant every country get 100% covid vaccination rates? Gibralta did it very quickly,if they could do why cant all countries lol.

Mr Hipster Trawler??
But I thought with an EV scooter and the jab, we were invincible
I hope you recover well.. and hope you will not have to change scooter type!!!
Take care

 

[sptrawler]

Hey mate, sorry to hear that. Get better soon. You will be out for Christmas hopefully ?

Its all good, a couple of plates on the tibea, no weight bearing for 6 weeks, then back on the scooter lol.
It has been a while since I've been in hospital, there is certainly a lot of bio mass, left over after meal times, one thing for sure I'll loose a couple of kilos.lol

 

[JohnDe]

i disagree , we could have been driving compact vehicles using lead acid batteries for the last 50 years , in fact in the '80s i worked in two different companies that used electric forklifts .. pallet transporters as well quite effectively

we had plenty of time to improve that technology and DIDN'T

those EVs had limitations sure , but so did the gas and petrol forklifts ( in certain areas )

BTW we have had solar vehicle endurance races for years too , but the research was left on the drawing board ( and 'race-track' ) rather than adapted and improved

what about solar + battery paint to the interior surface of the roof and boot to run the non-essential electronics on you EV

we could have done and still CAN do much better

we had working EVs since the 1900's this is NOT new just previously abandoned

True, though the biggest 'limitation' was the consumer. If the sales aren't there the product will never develop. Governments had no interest in funding a new technology when they were concentrating on keeping jobs growth going and an automotive industry struggling against cheap imports.

Lead acid batteries was a start, good enough for city driving but couldn't compete with Aussies thirst for travel.



Electric cars are common these days, but back in 1968, they were a revolutionary idea. Meet Roy Doring and his car of the future.

 

[qldfrog]

Its all good, a couple of plates on the tibea, no weight bearing for 6 weeks, then back on the scooter lol.
It has been a while since I've been in hospital, there is certainly a lot of bio mass, left over after meal times, one thing for sure I'll loose a couple of kilos.lol

that is the spirit
Imagine, nothing else to do than jousting on ASF and killing it with your investments
Heal well

 

[Value Collector]

We produce a lot of sugar cane , and if there is a choice between giving people diabetes or producing power with it , my preference is for the latter.

I don't think ethanol powered vehicles are viable long term though, EV's are going to take that market. Maybe we should start to electrify inland rail lines as well to reduce reliance on diesel.

If you clear the sugar cane field and replace it with solar panels you will produce more energy than you can with one sugar cane crop a year.

 

[Value Collector]

yes and dominance in rare-earth magnets would have been a real help in that

BUT the west had 50 even 100 years to build that EV industry first .. and chose not to ( add one billion potential employees in China )

The auto industry was lead by the USA, who 100 years ago had what seemed like unlimited supply of cheap Oil, and climate change was unknown, so Oil was a good choice for the last 100years, it’s not a great choice for the next 100 though.

 

[rederob]

I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.

The problem with your earlier post on Norway is that any government can choose to do what Norway has done, and more still, just like America offering US$12500 incentives for buying an EV made with unionised labour (ie not a Tesla!).
In other words, we can turn oranges into apples with the right policies, and even sweeter apples with better incentivisations.

So many posters see NEV incentivisation as requiring new taxes when, instead, we can transfer the greater tax burden to emissions as an offset. Either that or get an incoming government to claw back some of the billions of dollars improperly paid to employers under JobKeeper and reallocate it into cash incentives.

I noted an earlier post from @divs4ever about TCL not being happy if toll revenue was to decrease. Given you can probably count the EVs using any particular toll road on your fingers and toes today I suspect TCL won't be too worried. On the other hand as EV purchases increase, getting 50% of a toll is better than getting nothing, so as a TCL shareholder myself I don't see the problem. The other aspect of incentive arrangements is that they can be scaled so that by a specified future date they cease. That's part of what Norway has done.

As I see it, "Australia's unique circumstances" are equal to a total absence of policies or incentives for vehicles which are inherently safer with the latest technologies and have proven health benefits by reducing pollution.

 

[sptrawler]

I'm sure Australia will incetivise EV's, as they should because as you already know it is essential in the overall scheme of things, to have the BEVs providing grid storage for renewables.
What I don't agree with, is doing it before it is required as the infrastructure is still being rolled out, currently those who want an EV are rich enough to buy an EV and there is enough infrastructure in place to service them.
All the States have committed to rolling out charging infrastructure, over the next two years, from what I read it sounds as though the V2G charging standards were passed in November, so I have no doubt as the infrastructure rolls out so will incentives to increase the uptake.

What I was aluding to with Norway was they have a small population using a small road network and a small grid system which is supplied by fully renewable energy, it is a no brainer for them to have incentives and the installation of charging infrastructure isn't a problem as it doesn't face many logistical problems.
From memory Norway has something like 1800 hydro dams, so the HV transmission system would be incredibly stable.
By the way I didn't see it as a problem, with my earlier post.lol

 

[SirRumpole]

If you clear the sugar cane field and replace it with solar panels you will produce more energy than you can with one sugar cane crop a year.

Maybe, but you still need to store it and solar cells are still subject to weather and err.. darkness.

Having a store of ethanol that you can feed into gas turbines at a moments notice to stabilise supply when the weather turns bad solves one of the problems of intermittency of renewable energy.

And biofuels are renewable too.

 

[qldfrog]

Maybe, but you still need to store it and solar cells are still subject to weather and err.. darkness.

Having a store of ethanol that you can feed into gas turbines at a moments notice to stabilise supply when the weather turns bad solves on of the problems of intermittency

Yes, technically not bad, ethanol is usually oil negative in europe, usa but here, with sugar cane and wood mass , from memory it is positive, so more enegrgy from ethanol than from producing it
actually ethanol fuel cells have been created to power laptop...
ideally, h2 could do the trick turning and storing water into h2 during day with solar then fuel cell or burning it during night;
But ethanol would require far less change, you can just run your generator on it in the outback, or farms, etc minor changes
And we need to think about the existing fleet of machinery: bio fuel (vegetable oil), recreating fuel from air co2 and h2, or ethanol;
there is no point to pretend saving the planet by scrapping existing ICE engines and machinery;It is hardly better to use EV vs ICE, if you actually remove forcibly ICE to replace by brand new..made in china..Vietnam EVs, the end result is catastrophic for the planet
which bring back to point #1, best thing for planet is not EVs H2 etc but population reduction
EVs in australia while bringing more migration?
So reduce population or just eat Soylent Green food **** while living packed in a hutch, with a screen as head and brain

 

[rederob]

What I was aluding to with Norway was they have a small population using a small road network and a small grid system which is supplied by fully renewable energy, it is a no brainer for them to have incentives and the installation of charging infrastructure isn't a problem as it doesn't face many logistical problems.

Except they did not have to do it.
The Norway experience can be replicated in any western conurbation given that the average Australian driver seldom drives beyond it.
But without the right levers in place it won't happen any time soon.

From memory Norway has something like 1800 hydro dams, so the HV transmission system would be incredibly stable.

Many dams for sure, and the charging station rollout would be relatively cheap as well due to small distances in the charging network. Not that I think it will happen here but, rather than an HEV network in our non-metro areas, it's possible to instead use solar/wind powered battery charging banks as our servo equivalent. If we were really clever we could do this for many more-remote country towns and wean them off the grid.

 

[sptrawler]

Except they did not have to do it.
The Norway experience can be replicated in any western conurbation given that the average Australian driver seldom drives beyond it.
But without the right levers in place it won't happen any time soon.

Many dams for sure, and the charging station rollout would be relatively cheap as well due to small distances in the charging network. Not that I think it will happen here but, rather than an HEV network in our non-metro areas, it's possible to instead use solar/wind powered battery charging banks as our servo equivalent. If we were really clever we could do this for many more-remote country towns and wean them off the grid.

It will happen, it just won't happen quickly, massive area with low population densities and a small tax base.
I hope that a Federal Government ups the rate of GST, the tax system is woefully behind the speed of technological change in society these days and it is struggling to keep Australia's infrastructure in line with societies requirements.
But it is what it is and it may change with a change of government, but I doubt it, all sides of politics in Australia have a 3 year horizon which no longer works.

 

[Value Collector]

Maybe, but you still need to store it and solar cells are still subject to weather and err.. darkness.

Having a store of ethanol that you can feed into gas turbines at a moments notice to stabilise supply when the weather turns bad solves one of the problems of intermittency of renewable energy.

And biofuels are renewable too.

You can convert electricity into stored battery power, stored hydrogen, and even into liquid ammonia fuels.

sugar cane requires the sun to grow as well, but solar panels don’t need water or fertiliser, and produce all year, without the threat of crop failure.

 

[SirRumpole]

You can convert electricity into stored battery power, stored hydrogen, and even into liquid ammonia fuels.

sugar cane requires the sun to grow as well, but solar panels don’t need water or fertiliser, and produce all year, without the threat of crop failure.

The whole thing is a mix. I don't care if the turbines are powered by gas, hydrogen , ethanol or anything else, the more options we have the less we need to rely on one, so everything should be in the mix.

 

[Value Collector]

The whole thing is a mix. I don't care if the turbines are powered by gas, hydrogen , ethanol or anything else, the more options we have the less we need to rely on one, so everything should be in the mix.

Agreed, I like biofuels when it’s comes from waste product, but I don’t like the idea of using valuable Land, water and fertiliser to make fuel if there is better ways.

 

[divs4ever]

True, though the biggest 'limitation' was the consumer. If the sales aren't there the product will never develop. Governments had no interest in funding a new technology when they were concentrating on keeping jobs growth going and an automotive industry struggling against cheap imports.

Lead acid batteries was a start, good enough for city driving but couldn't compete with Aussies thirst for travel.


Electric cars are common these days, but back in 1968, they were a revolutionary idea. Meet Roy Doring and his car of the future.

which is why i think the push to move EVs should have been led by the various levels of government , not just go to long-winded talk-fests , but signing the lease agreements and getting employees used to the idea ( and hope it spreads via normal public interaction )

but, but there is that part of the population that rarely ever venture outside the home city ( especially by car ,camper-van/mobile home )

and we should really be grabbing that segment of the market , as a good start , hoping demand and technological improvement will grow that market , after current EV production does have it's bottlenecks , that still need solutions

 

[sptrawler]

The whole thing is a mix. I don't care if the turbines are powered by gas, hydrogen , ethanol or anything else, the more options we have the less we need to rely on one, so everything should be in the mix.

That nailed it Rumpy, way too many are focusing on one aspect of a multi faceted problem.
In some cases a solar farm might be better eg where there is a salt problem and nothing grows or an area where agriculture is not its strong point, but in an area where agriculture is its strong point, the loss of the agriculture and its ability to supply food, biofuel and the naturally occurring ability to convert CO2 to oxygen has to be taken into account.
That IMO is what isn't happening at the moment, solar has the stage at the moment, but as you say it has to be weighed up in a careful and holistic manner.