Electric cars?

[mullokintyre]

Agreed there are definite limits to it. Turning waste into ethanol is sensible, it saves oil and puts the material to good use, but growing crops for that purpose specifically is highly dubious.

My point however is that done properly it won't wreck your engine but many seem to have a view that they'd rather walk than put E10 in their car. As far as they're concerned it's the devils work when in truth there's no such problem if it's done properly.

There's far too much of a religious / emotional / non-scientific approach to the entire energy issue in my view (referring to society as a whole there, especially politics).

Cars need to be setup for ethanol.
O rings on fuel lines pumps etc , plus the lines them selves need to be ethanol resisant .
O rings and lines made from natural rubber, butyl or Nitrile are highly resistant to ethanol, but both natural rubber and butyl are poorly resistant to petrol.
Silicon andNeoprene are not so good with ethanol, but unsuitable for petrol.
Nitrile works well with either.
Cast Polyurethane works well with gasoline, but is bad with with ethanol.
Newer cars are likely to be using Nitrile, older cars you never can be quite sure until they fail.
Mick

 

[Jeda]

Ethonol is a moderatly expensive shrt term replacement. It is more expensive to produce thatn petrol, most engines and fuel systems are designed to use it, meaning that there will be an added cost to retrofit small engine tools and vehicles and generators.

The best scanrio is to allow the industry to change over during the period that manufacturers and governments have mentioned numerous times - 2035.

As battery technology and Hydrogen gets cheaper to produce and sell, prodcts such as cars, trucks, generators, chainsaws, etc will also change.

Which ever way you look at it, the combustion engine is going the way of the dinosaur. Though it wont happen overnight like the big meteor strike, this will take 50 years, and we're already into the 20th year.

 

[sptrawler]

With EV's it isn't just a change of mode of transportation, it is completely changing the energy source from an established self contained closed loop system, to a whole new energy source that was never designed to have the extra demand put on it.
But not only that the new energy source is also trying to change where it gets its energy from and this is to happen overnight, well some think that can be done in reality it is a transition which will take some time and will hit some speed bumps, putting in extra speed bumps isn't a good idea IMO.
Do it once do it right IMO, less haste more speed, jumping from one handout to another is fraught with danger, as history has proved over and over.

 

[sptrawler]

The Japanese car makers are starting to band together, to get up to speed in the EV space, the new Mazda 2 and one of the Suzuki range, are rebadged Toyota Yaris hybrids.
I would post a link, but being on meds and on the phone, you could get a link to a site you don't want to see.lol

 

[divs4ever]

Ethonol is a moderatly expensive shrt term replacement. It is more expensive to produce thatn petrol, most engines and fuel systems are designed to use it, meaning that there will be an added cost to retrofit small engine tools and vehicles and generators.

The best scanrio is to allow the industry to change over during the period that manufacturers and governments have mentioned numerous times - 2035.

As battery technology and Hydrogen gets cheaper to produce and sell, prodcts such as cars, trucks, generators, chainsaws, etc will also change.

Which ever way you look at it, the combustion engine is going the way of the dinosaur. Though it wont happen overnight like the big meteor strike, this will take 50 years, and we're already into the 20th year.

but you can make ethanol at home ( especially if outside the cities ) making it drinking quality is the hard bit ( wink ) not everything works well on ethanol fuel either but stuff like the farm ute , and the back-up generator and other ICE applications

i think it definitely deserves to stay in the mix of options for Australia ( even if only for remote areas )

 

[divs4ever]

The Japanese car makers are starting to band together, to get up to speed in the EV space, the new Mazda 2 and one of the Suzuki range, are rebadged Toyota Yaris hybrids.
I would post a link, but being on drugs and on the phone, you could get a link to a site you don't want to see.lol

yes those medications can be challenge , can't they ??

get well soon

 

[moXJO]

That’s a bit like people that say installing solar panels are expensive because they see an upfront cost of $6000, but they don’t do the math of how much $500 every 3 months on their regular bill adds up to after 10 years.

a battery might cost about $15,000 but over the life of the car you can have $50,000 in fuel savings, and vastly reduced maintenance costs.

I think people that choose options that are cheaper upfront are the ones that suffer, not those that install solar for example.

The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.

I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.

 

[divs4ever]

The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.

I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.

i agree , and i would suggest those who can least afford a new EV are the ones who would benefit the most , which is my i was suggesting government leases to put second-hand EVs into the wider market say 3 or 4 years down the track

 

[moXJO]

but you can make ethanol at home ( especially if outside the cities ) making it drinking quality is the hard bit ( wink ) not everything works well on ethanol fuel either but stuff like the farm ute , and the back-up generator and other ICE applications

i think it definitely deserves to stay in the mix of options for Australia ( even if only for remote areas )

There was an off the shelf machine that made ethanol that was around. Saw it about a decade or more ago.

 

[Value Collector]

The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.

I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.

Most low income people borrow to buy their cars any way, and the costs of a larger loan can be more than offset by the savings in petrol costs and maintenance.

Also, electric cars are covered under the national clean energy loan scheme where you can get loans with cheaper interest if you are buying solar panels, electric cars or home batteries, this means that the over all cost of the loan will be cheaper than a loan for a petrol car of the same class, then you factor in the lower ongoing vehicle costs and cheaper interest.

Those $600 cars are probably 15 - 20 years old, in 15 years from now my Tesla Model 3 will probably be in that class (maybe its battery will give it a minimum scrap value, so maybe it will be higher than $600 but it will be a similar thing, E.g both petrol and electric cars will drop in value towards their scrap value at some stage, and provide the market with cheap end of life clunkers.

 

[mullokintyre]

Most low income people borrow to buy their cars any way, and the costs of a larger loan can be more than offset by the savings in petrol costs and maintenance.

Also, electric cars are covered under the national clean energy loan scheme where you can get loans with cheaper interest if you are buying solar panels, electric cars or home batteries, this means that the over all cost of the loan will be cheaper than a loan for a petrol car of the same class, then you factor in the lower ongoing vehicle costs and cheaper interest.

Those $600 cars are probably 15 - 20 years old, in 15 years from now my Tesla Model 3 will probably be in that class (maybe its battery will give it a minimum scrap value, so maybe it will be higher than $600 but it will be a similar thing, E.g both petrol and electric cars will drop in value towards their scrap value at some stage, and provide the market with cheap end of life clunkers.

With all due respect to the posters on the forum, I doubt any of you know or understand the spending habits of the bottom 30% of OZ citizens. Working as a volunteer, I have a small amount of knowledge of a range of the bottom rungs of society, but I will never understand their spending habits. The likes of afterpay, zip, credit card companies and cash converters are very much aimed at this bottom group, because that is where they will make the most of screwing them out of whatever few bucks they have. They are susceptible to those who prey on them, and I doubt there is anything we can do to prevent it.
Trying to project your logic or economic rationale onto other groups generally comes up with a surprise ending.
So much of the call for subsidies, incentives etc end up distorting the market, more than likely to the detriment of the poorer social economic groups.
If these people were in any position to borrow money, it is likely their credit rating would be such that no lender would bother unless it was loan shark with muscle. They borrow of friends or relatives assuming they have money.
Electric vehicles will always be out of their reach, no matter what the price, unless someone gives it to them.
Most likely their next action is to sell it at a fraction of the value cos they need the money to pay the rent, or kids school fees, or to buy maccas.
Sorry if I seem cynical, but thats exactly what I am.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.

I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.

IMO that won't change, those people in 10years will be picking up VC's Tesla because he will be buying a new one as the range/battery capacity drops.
It will be interesting to see what the resale of a 10 year old ,EV is when you factor in appearance degradation, battery degradation and wear and tear on running gear.
I guess a lot will depend on what battery design is like in 10 years time, as to the viability of recycling, if batteries change markedly the value of the recovered material might not over the cost of recycling time will tell.

 

[moXJO]

Most low income people borrow to buy their cars any way, and the costs of a larger loan can be more than offset by the savings in petrol costs and maintenance.

Also, electric cars are covered under the national clean energy loan scheme where you can get loans with cheaper interest if you are buying solar panels, electric cars or home batteries, this means that the over all cost of the loan will be cheaper than a loan for a petrol car of the same class, then you factor in the lower ongoing vehicle costs and cheaper interest.

Those $600 cars are probably 15 - 20 years old, in 15 years from now my Tesla Model 3 will probably be in that class (maybe its battery will give it a minimum scrap value, so maybe it will be higher than $600 but it will be a similar thing, E.g both petrol and electric cars will drop in value towards their scrap value at some stage, and provide the market with cheap end of life clunkers.

People buying $600 cars don't often borrow.
All those "national schemes" don't mean anything if you are on the wrong side of the divide.
I agree with everything you are saying. It absolutely makes sense if you can afford it. But lower income won't touch it because even $3k can be prohibitively expensive.

But I'm sure petrol cars will survive till batteries become cheaper.

 

[moXJO]

IMO that won't change, those people in 10years will be picking up VC's Tesla because he will be buying a new one as the range/battery capacity drops.
It will be interesting to see what the resale of a 10 year old ,EV is when you factor in appearance degradation, battery degradation and wear and tear on running gear.

There was a Tesla with a million miles on it. The service history was shown on it.
I suppose the cheaper imports will run cheaper at end of life.

The current teslas will hold decent value imo.

It's not a major issue about cost at this stage. Just an observation that batteries are damn expensive.

 

[sptrawler]

People buying $600 cars don't often borrow.
All those "national schemes" don't mean anything if you are on the wrong side of the divide.
I agree with everything you are saying. It absolutely makes sense if you can afford it. But lower income won't touch it because even $3k can be prohibitively expensive.

But I'm sure petrol cars will survive till batteries become cheaper.

Absolutely, one of my kids would find 3k impossible to get together and he is in his 40's. He will be driving a worn out Commodore, untill he can't get one.
The other thing of course, when you say people who buy $600 cars don't borrow, the reality is a lot of people who buy $600 cars can't borrow no one will lend to them other than last resort or payday lenders.
Appollogies Mick, just read your post above which covers those less fortunate well.

 

[sptrawler]

There was a Tesla with a million miles on it. The service history was shown on it.
I suppose the cheaper imports will run cheaper at end of life.

The current teslas will hold decent value imo.

It's not a major issue about cost at this stage. Just an observation that batteries are damn expensive.

Absolutely, but the other interesting thing is the same people who say batteries will get cheaper, due to advances in technology, also say that EV battery degradation isn't an issues because it is recyclable, intimating that their could be a very good residual value.
If battery technology changes considerably, which is on the cards, there is every possibility that the current batteries are only worth scrap value, down the track.
This is one of the reasons I'm leaning toward PHEV.

 

[Jeda]

but you can make ethanol at home ( especially if outside the cities ) making it drinking quality is the hard bit ( wink ) not everything works well on ethanol fuel either but stuff like the farm ute , and the back-up generator and other ICE applications

i think it definitely deserves to stay in the mix of options for Australia ( even if only for remote areas )

hahaha, yes. It is even harder to make it drinkable for engines. I've seen a few mates melt the pistons on their engines with poor quality ethanol. Not to mention the sludge and water build up in the fuel system :-(

 

[divs4ever]

Absolutely, but the other interesting thing is the same people who say batteries will get cheaper, due to advances in technology, also say that EV battery degradation isn't an issues because it is recyclable, intimating that their could be a very good residual value.
If battery technology changes considerably, which is on the cards, there is every possibility that the current batteries are only worth scrap value, down the track.
This is one of the reasons I'm leaning toward PHEV.

how is that battery recycling tech going , i see companies researching it , but where are the collection depots for the ( non-lead-acid ) batteries , i can offload the lead-acid ones at the recyclers

 

[Smurf1976]

Ethonol is a moderatly expensive shrt term replacement. It is more expensive to produce thatn petrol, most engines and fuel systems are designed to use it, meaning that there will be an added cost to retrofit small engine tools and vehicles and generators.

I'm not really advocating it, it has a limited role to play and works if done correctly but has very major issues with scale.

My real point though is about the irrational approach many take toward it. Suggest putting E10 in their car and they see the stuff as pure evil which, for any vehicle that is correctly set up to use it, is complete nonsense so far as the car is concerned. There are arguments against it in terms of resource use and so on but so far as running the engine is concerned, so long as it's set up to use it then it's just not a problem. Obviously if someone runs it in an engine not suitably set up then that's going to end badly but then filling the tank with kerosene or water won't work too well either.

Can't convince many though. They can't see the difference between politics, economics, environment / resources and engineering is my point really. Just because there's an economic or political argument for or against a particular technology says nothing about it's technical merits.

So I'm not advocating it beyond the sensible scale of putting wastes to use etc but would I put E10 in an expensive car? Sure, so long as the car's set up for it then there's no reason to avoid it. Religion or politics isn't chemistry.

Same with EV's hence my commenting in this thread, my point being about the overall thought process not ethanol itself (the thread being electric cars not alcohol powered cars). There's an awful lot of politics and "religion" of a sort caught up in the whole issue of vehicle fuels, ethanol being a very obvious example as is electric, but that really says nothing about the practicalities, economics and other issues surrounding the use of EV's in practice. If it's practical as a car then it ought not be a political statement - it's a means of transport.

 

[SirRumpole]

i agree , and i would suggest those who can least afford a new EV are the ones who would benefit the most , which is my i was suggesting government leases to put second-hand EVs into the wider market say 3 or 4 years down the track

Governments could start by electrifying their own car fleets which would not only give them some idea of what ev car ownership is like, but would necessitate them adding recharging infrastructure as well.

They should lead by example I reckon.