Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Yes, the hackers will have a great time.

We have had planes that fly on autopilot for a fair while, do they get hacked often?

I am not a computer guru, but to me it doesn't seem to hard to have some various different systems of the car operating as separate systems that can not be controlled from external sources, with different layers of encryption.

For example, the cars driving systems might be able to be a completely closed system that is self contained that doesn't receive any sort of driving instructions externally, except for basic information like traffic data and navigation etc. so maybe a hacker could prank you and get the car to navigate some where you didn't request, but not get the car to drive into a wall, because the cars ability to see the wall and stop is contained in the closed system.

 

[SirRumpole]

We have had planes that fly on autopilot for a fair while, do they get hacked often?

Autopilots on aircraft fail for various reasons. The difference is that pilots are professionals who are trained to detect failures and turn off the system. Your average car driver is probably texting or talking to someone and is less likely to notice the failure.

 

[Value Collector]

Autopilots on aircraft fail for various reasons. The difference is that pilots are professionals who are trained to detect failures and turn off the system. Your average car driver is probably texting or talking to someone and is less likely to notice the failure.

But do they get hacked?

The point is not that autopilots will be perfect, they don’t have to be, Autopilots just need to fail less often than humans, and they will save lives and be an improvement, and there will be humans there to take over

 

[basilio]

Something to think about.
Has the boom dropped for ICE car sales ? Are we seeing an acceleration in EV sales with a clear stagnation/decline in ICE vehicles?

How Tesla's Model 3 triggered The Osborne Effect, and caused the ICE market to melt

Global new car sales have fallen steady since 2017, when Tesla released the Model 3. Many consumers are waiting to buy the right EV for them.

thedriven.io

 

[sptrawler]

Something to think about.
Has the boom dropped for ICE car sales ? Are we seeing an acceleration in EV sales with a clear stagnation/decline in ICE vehicles?

How Tesla's Model 3 triggered The Osborne Effect, and caused the ICE market to melt

Global new car sales have fallen steady since 2017, when Tesla released the Model 3. Many consumers are waiting to buy the right EV for them.

thedriven.io

Which is what we said a couple of years ago on the forum, people will just hang on to their current vehicle, until it becomes viable to change to BEV.

 

[Value Collector]

Which is what we said a couple of years ago on the forum, people will just hang on to their current vehicle, until it becomes viable to change to BEV.

That’s called the “Osborne effect”

Osborne effect - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[sptrawler]

That’s called the “Osborne effect”

Osborne effect - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I didn't realise they had a name for it, but it is obvious, the amount of ramping on the media re climate change and the death of ICE vehicles, has to cause a phobia.
It is similar to the vaccine hesitancy, if the media had put a positive spin on the benefits of AstraZeneca, instead of the sensationalising the clot issue, there wouldn't be the huge vaccine hesitancy issue IMO.
Unfortunately IMO the media has become a tabloid, that is driven by sales, rather than by journalism.

MEAA Journalist Code of Ethics​

Respect for truth and the public’s right to information are fundamental principles of journalism. Journalists search, disclose, record, question, entertain, comment and remember. They inform citizens and animate democracy. They scrutinise power, but also exercise it, and should be responsible and accountable.​

MEAA members engaged in journalism commit themselves to:​

Honesty
Fairness
Independence
Respect for the rights of others​

Journalists will educate themselves about ethics and apply the following standards:​

1. Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

2. Do not place unnecessary emphasis on personal characteristics, including race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, age, sexual orientation, family relationships, religious belief, or physical or intellectual disability.

3. Aim to attribute information to its source. Where a source seeks anonymity, do not agree without first considering the source’s motives and any alternative attributable source. Where confidences are accepted, respect them in all circumstances.

4. Do not allow personal interest, or any belief, commitment, payment, gift or benefit, to undermine your accuracy, fairness or independence.

5. Disclose conflicts of interest that affect, or could be seen to affect, the accuracy, fairness or independence of your journalism. Do not improperly use a journalistic position for personal gain.

6. Do not allow advertising or other commercial considerations to undermine accuracy, fairness or independence.

7. Do your utmost to ensure disclosure of any direct or indirect payment made for interviews, pictures, information or stories.

8. Use fair, responsible and honest means to obtain material. Identify yourself and your employer before obtaining any interview for publication or broadcast. Never exploit a person’s vulnerability or ignorance of media practice.

9. Present pictures and sound which are true and accurate. Any manipulation likely to mislead should be disclosed.

10. Do not plagiarise.

11. Respect private grief and personal privacy. Journalists have the right to resist compulsion to intrude.

12. Do your utmost to achieve fair correction of errors.

 

[mullokintyre]

We have had planes that fly on autopilot for a fair while, do they get hacked often?

I am not a computer guru, but to me it doesn't seem to hard to have some various different systems of the car operating as separate systems that can not be controlled from external sources, with different layers of encryption.

For example, the cars driving systems might be able to be a completely closed system that is self contained that doesn't receive any sort of driving instructions externally, except for basic information like traffic data and navigation etc. so maybe a hacker could prank you and get the car to navigate some where you didn't request, but not get the car to drive into a wall, because the cars ability to see the wall and stop is contained in the closed system.

Probably not a good analogy to use.
Autopilots in planes come in a variety of levels of sophistication.
At its most basic its a wing leveller, at its most complex it will fly a flight plan via numerous way points, and ascend and descend at a predetermined rate.
Yet if the pilot sets his heading bug for a course, sets his altitude bug for a predetermined height, the plane can still fly into a mountain which happens to be on the predertmined course and at a height above the predetermined level. Assuming of course he does not notice the upcoming mountain and takes evasive action. If the pilot is IFR in cloud and does not read his charts properly, he would not see the upcoming mountain anyway. Similarly, he would not see other aircraft that may be on a collision course.
Aircraft Autopilots are a long way behind what level 5 auto driving requires.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

I didn't realise they had a name for it, but it is obvious, the amount of ramping on the media re climate change and the death of ICE vehicles, has to cause a phobia.
It is similar to the vaccine hesitancy, if the media had put a positive spin on the benefits of AstraZeneca, instead of the sensationalising the clot issue, there wouldn't be the huge vaccine hesitancy issue IMO.
Unfortunately IMO the media has become a tabloid, that is driven by sales, rather than by journalism.

MEAA Journalist Code of Ethics​

Respect for truth and the public’s right to information are fundamental principles of journalism. Journalists search, disclose, record, question, entertain, comment and remember. They inform citizens and animate democracy. They scrutinise power, but also exercise it, and should be responsible and accountable.​

MEAA members engaged in journalism commit themselves to:​

Honesty ​

Fairness ​

Independence ​

Respect for the rights of others​

Journalists will educate themselves about ethics and apply the following standards:​

1. Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

2. Do not place unnecessary emphasis on personal characteristics, including race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, age, sexual orientation, family relationships, religious belief, or physical or intellectual disability.

3. Aim to attribute information to its source. Where a source seeks anonymity, do not agree without first considering the source’s motives and any alternative attributable source. Where confidences are accepted, respect them in all circumstances.

4. Do not allow personal interest, or any belief, commitment, payment, gift or benefit, to undermine your accuracy, fairness or independence.

5. Disclose conflicts of interest that affect, or could be seen to affect, the accuracy, fairness or independence of your journalism. Do not improperly use a journalistic position for personal gain.

6. Do not allow advertising or other commercial considerations to undermine accuracy, fairness or independence.

7. Do your utmost to ensure disclosure of any direct or indirect payment made for interviews, pictures, information or stories.

8. Use fair, responsible and honest means to obtain material. Identify yourself and your employer before obtaining any interview for publication or broadcast. Never exploit a person’s vulnerability or ignorance of media practice.

9. Present pictures and sound which are true and accurate. Any manipulation likely to mislead should be disclosed.

10. Do not plagiarise.

11. Respect private grief and personal privacy. Journalists have the right to resist compulsion to intrude.

12. Do your utmost to achieve fair correction of errors.

Would be nice to see courageous journos adopting these, for covid as well .

 

[divs4ever]

Probably not a good analogy to use.
Autopilots in planes come in a variety of levels of sophistication.
At its most basic its a wing leveller, at its most complex it will fly a flight plan via numerous way points, and ascend and descend at a predetermined rate.
Yet if the pilot sets his heading bug for a course, sets his altitude bug for a predetermined height, the plane can still fly into a mountain which happens to be on the predertmined course and at a height above the predetermined level. Assuming of course he does not notice the upcoming mountain and takes evasive action. If the pilot is IFR in cloud and does not read his charts properly, he would not see the upcoming mountain anyway. Similarly, he would not see other aircraft that may be on a collision course.
Aircraft Autopilots are a long way behind what level 5 auto driving requires.
Mick

737 MAX ...such programming skill ( or lack of it ) put in a traffic dense situation

( am not saying 'auto-pilot' in a plane is totally bad , but should be used wisely by informed users )

in a car ( or some trucks/campervans ) cruise-control brings out the human defect in such systems

 

[divs4ever]

Would be nice to see courageous journos adopting these, for covid as well .

after a stint of 12 years working for a NWS subsidiary ( more if you count my stint as a paper boy ) i would just like to see them applied in some corporations ( even in the staff newsletter )

regarding courageous journos , you will need to check out alt. tech media , elsewhere the truth seems to be banned ( and not just in the area of health/medicine )

even on Alt. tech you still need to do your own research

cheers

 

[Value Collector]

Probably not a good analogy to use.
Autopilots in planes come in a variety of levels of sophistication.
At its most basic its a wing leveller, at its most complex it will fly a flight plan via numerous way points, and ascend and descend at a predetermined rate.
Yet if the pilot sets his heading bug for a course, sets his altitude bug for a predetermined height, the plane can still fly into a mountain which happens to be on the predertmined course and at a height above the predetermined level. Assuming of course he does not notice the upcoming mountain and takes evasive action. If the pilot is IFR in cloud and does not read his charts properly, he would not see the upcoming mountain anyway. Similarly, he would not see other aircraft that may be on a collision course.
Aircraft Autopilots are a long way behind what level 5 auto driving requires.
Mick

Agreed, but autopilot in planes is a good example of how automation can reduce risk of human error, for example as the video said during landing for example.

 

[mullokintyre]

The Autoland feature is a great innovation when all the parameters are within a set boundary, but like the autodrive, it is the 5% of time when conditions depart from that set boundary that it just does not know what to do. The aircraft that enters the main runway when another aircraft is on short final, the last aircraft that got disabled on the runway due to flat tyres, debris on the runway from the last clown that miscalculated his thrust settings for the weight he was carrying and dragged the arse of the plane along the runway as he desperately tried to rotate. There are lots of other gotchas that sometimes sitting for a few hours in a sim is the only way to train for.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

after a stint of 12 years working for a NWS subsidiary ( more if you count my stint as a paper boy ) i would just like to see them applied in some corporations ( even in the staff newsletter )

regarding courageous journos , you will need to check out alt. tech media , elsewhere the truth seems to be banned ( and not just in the area of health/medicine )

even on Alt. tech you still need to do your own research

cheers

as you must have seen, I always ask why? and do my searches
So my contrarian attitude it seems cf Covid response, global warming created by Co2..that one should be a laughing matter yet has become a religion, and so many other subjects;
For EV, I actually like a lot the technology, but did the numbers when a friend was boasting his telsla as a reduced Co2 impact and ecological choice;
In Australia, qld in our case, unless you charge it fully at home from your own power, it is not that great comparing even to my diesel ute.and I do not even count the "bringing a car from the US vs Asia" factor
real science means analysing effects of experiences and data (numbers).And doing that without bias,
We have experience and numbers for covid effects, covid vaccines, immigration vs security /impact on poorer country, historical (geological) data on global warming vs co2, so we need proper reporting of these
For electrical cars, we have enough data to see if it is actually a plus overall..And this will depend on location
Note there are noise and city pollution advantages even if fully charged on dirty power: see chinese city traffic
And yes less CO2 is good as it currently means less fossil fuels with limited supplies, but not always achieved with EV, especially when you dump working ICE vehicles due to artificial gov regulations

 

[basilio]

If you havn't heard much about the Hyundai Ioniq 5 check out this review. Coming soon to Oz.

It's a very cool car. Can even park itself in tight spots (and get out as well..!).

Hyundai Ioniq 5 pricing announced, less than Tesla Model 3

Hyundai reveals UK pricing and specs for Ioniq 5, and they're a good £4,000 less than the Standard Range Plus Model 3. Will we see the same pattern in Australia?

thedriven.io

 

[basilio]

Now here's a hypothetical. Let's imagine everyone was driving electric cars and suddenly ICE cars were coming onto the market.
What sort of questions would current EV drivers be asking about changing to petrol driven cars ?

Consider these for a start..

1. I have heard that petrol cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

2. Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?

3. Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?

4. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.

5. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?

6. We currently pay about 1.2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let’s hope more people will start using petrol so prices go down.

7. Is it true that petrol is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the petrol somewhere else while the car is in the garage?

8. Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident. What does this cost?

9. I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?

I'm thinking of replacing my EV with a petrol car. Can I refuel it at home?

The top nine questions for an electric vehicle owner thinking of making the switch to a fossil fuel car.

thedriven.io

 

[Value Collector]

The Autoland feature is a great innovation when all the parameters are within a set boundary, but like the autodrive, it is the 5% of time when conditions depart from that set boundary that it just does not know what to do. The aircraft that enters the main runway when another aircraft is on short final, the last aircraft that got disabled on the runway due to flat tyres, debris on the runway from the last clown that miscalculated his thrust settings for the weight he was carrying and dragged the arse of the plane along the runway as he desperately tried to rotate. There are lots of other gotchas that sometimes sitting for a few hours in a sim is the only way to train for.
Mick

As I mentioned to Rumpole though, it’s not whether that’s autonomous driving vehicles are perfect that matters, it’s whether they fail less often that’s important.

At the moment Tesla only has level 2 autopilot, but Inhave driven 1000’s of km’s using it, including stretches as long as 3 hours without me having to do anything.

there is no doubt that an alert driver with autopilot is safer than an alert driver by themselves. And it’s is just going tot continue to get better and better.

 

[Value Collector]

Now here's a hypothetical. Let's imagine everyone was driving electric cars and suddenly ICE cars were coming onto the market.
What sort of questions would current EV drivers be asking about changing to petrol driven cars ?

Consider these for a start..

1. I have heard that petrol cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

2. Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?

3. Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?

4. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.

5. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?

6. We currently pay about 1.2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let’s hope more people will start using petrol so prices go down.

7. Is it true that petrol is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the petrol somewhere else while the car is in the garage?

8. Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident. What does this cost?

9. I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?

I'm thinking of replacing my EV with a petrol car. Can I refuel it at home?

The top nine questions for an electric vehicle owner thinking of making the switch to a fossil fuel car.

thedriven.io

At to that.

10. if we all drive ICE cars, will it increase the number of people in our cities dying of respiratory diseases?

 

[divs4ever]

answer to No. 4 ... gravity tank ( i had an old Austin with one fitted )

luckily it never leaked onto the engine , but it had one to limit fuel starvation at times

those power costs are liable to increase as global carbon taxes increase you might not be smiling so broadly in 2030

A. to No. 5 that same Austin had a very small flywheel ( and heavy duty clutch ) , tyre traction and whiplash were more of a problem

unluckily that vehicle had no head-rests and a lightly padded dash , so 'rip-your -head-off acceleration ' was vaguely possible with the appropriate tyres

 

[Smurf1976]

answer to No. 4 ... gravity tank ( i had an old Austin with one fitted )

luckily it never leaked onto the engine

Try driving a Trabant.

The fuel tank is under the bonnet above the engine.

In the event you run into anything, which is a definite possibility given the Trabant's brakes are woeful, you'd be wise to get out of the car real quick. That little 0.6 litre two stroke engine has no radiator so it's nice and hot ready to ignite any leaking petrol.

Former East German engineering at its finest. Definitely more exciting to drive than any mainstream modern non-performance car though - exciting for all the wrong reasons but exciting nonetheless.

One plus is no real chance of pressing the wrong button inside the car. That being because it doesn't really have any buttons to press. One switch on the dash turns the headlights on, another turns the hazard lights on. That's it really, can't go wrong. If it's hot then wind the window down.

The indicators are far more confusing though. Pull the stalk and it blasts the horn just when you really didn't want to do that in the middle of town stopped behind a horse drawn cart. (True story there by the way, that did actually happen).

Electric cars, be they manually driven or self driving, will be far more refined I'm sure.