Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Legislative requirement ?

Or just pricing, petrol stations used to do cheaper fuel on tuesdays to avoid the pay day rush, no reason electricity companies can’t do the same.

there is actually one company that already offers customers free power between 12pm-2pm on Saturday and Sunday, to combat solar glut.

 

[Value Collector]

There is also a charger currently on the market that monitors your solar production and only charges the car, while you are producing excess solar. The brand is “Zappi” I believe.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is a short video explaining the zappi charger.

 

[moXJO]

Who's sitting at home all day charging the car?

If we do go electric then it wouldn't surprise me if they jack up overnight rates. As everyone that works is going to charge overnight. This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.

 

[Value Collector]

Who's sitting at home all day charging the car?

If we do go electric then it wouldn't surprise me if they jack up overnight rates. As everyone that works is going to charge overnight. This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.

Who's sitting at home all day charging the car?

If we do go electric then it wouldn't surprise me if they jack up overnight rates. As everyone that works is going to charge overnight. This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.

Lots of people, most people only fill up their car with fuel once a week, and could do that on the week ends, while they have a sleep in, or even while they are at their office, think about all the real estate agents, dentists, lawyers, etc etc operating out of neighbourhood type offices with parking out the back where their cars sit all day.

the fact is you don’t actually have to think about it, you just plug in and it will just charge when conditions are right through out the week, and if you notice it’s getting low you press the button and boost it up over night.

Also you only have to look at the timings of peak hour traffic flows to see that there are a lot less cars on the road in the middle of the day than there are in the mornings and late afternoon, so people could be charging while at work or after the morning school run etc.

Most people drive their car for less than 2 hours day, that’s alot of opportunity to be charging.

 

[rederob]

I had no idea that the USA's BEV trend had flatlined:

Given GM and Ford have locked in EV production in coming years there's no doubt this will turn around soon.
Other handy EV data for 2021 can be found here.

 

[Smurf1976]

Mr Smurf,
I seriously doubt the issue is as simple as you assume.
Point one: the 40/60 split from the study is not representative of the population.who has EV now?

Agreed.

To the extent that EV's are in use now, it seems a reasonable assumption that they have been purchased by people who are somewhat more aware of and concerned about energy and environmental issues than the population as a whole. I've no proof of that but it seems a reasonable assumption - nobody's ever argued the point when I've said it, it seems probable that it would be true despite the lack of proof.

That being so, current EV owners would logically be more inclined than the average person to "do the right thing" and/or choose options such as TOU pricing which save them money.

That a lot of them aren't doing so is, to use an analogy, a bit like someone doing a survey and finding that most nutritionists aren't eating a good diet. If they're not doing it then not much chance of convincing anyone else.

All of which gives technical people and the likes of Origin and the various electricity distributors thoughts of how this could be automated, thus removing the need for the consumer to think about it.

The thinking within one of the larger generating companies in the National Electricity Market is very much in that direction. Install a charger and remote control how it operates but with an override "charge right now" function that'll come at a higher price.

All that is about charging them as such. The idea of using parked EV's as a battery to feed the grid is a whole new ball game - one that can't work if we don't have control over charge and discharge but that's a second step as such.

All that said, it won't kill the concept of EV's if consumers don't go along with it and insist on charging whenever they like. Just means more cost to beef up supply to cope. I'd argue that's somewhat missing the point about EV's, it's failing to capture the full benefits both economic and environmental, but ultimately if that's what consumers choose well then it's doable, things can be built it's just resources and money.

I should also point out that this is looking ahead. There's no problem right now but I and others are thinking in terms of a future where EV's are mainstream and there's literally millions of them and how that works.

 

[Gunnerguy]

W

I didn’t expect the article link to prompt so much debate...

If the law permitted forcing consumers onto time-based pricing then almost certainly that would lead to a lot more choosing to charge their EV at times when it creates no issues. It brings about the price-induced fix referred to.

The problem at the moment however is that the majority are on flat rates, same price anytime, and in most of the country the law doesn't allow a distributor or retailer to force a change unless the consumer wants it. Some exceptions but in general that’s the case.

As per the research, a large portion of consumers aren't choosing to change of their own accord and therein lies the problem.

The issue is ridiculously simple to resolve but not actually being resolved. Hence the calls for action - but the trouble is the politics surrounding EV's isn't ideal there which complicates what ought to be straightforward.

We have sprinkler days based on house number (legislated ? or forced by watercorp ?), why not nighttime recharge hours based on house numbers and just use a $5 ‘widget thingy’ on the power cable to ‘click on’ at a specific time.
charging during the day is cheaper with the sun out, or your own created electricity from your panels.

 

[qldfrog]

W

We have sprinkler days based on house number (legislated ? or forced by watercorp ?), why not nighttime recharge hours based on house numbers and just use a $5 ‘widget thingy’ on the power cable to ‘click on’ at a specific time.
charging during the day is cheaper with the sun out, or your own created electricity from your panels.

And the other advantage is that you could over.charge a specific tariff for ev, with a road levy, an accident levy, etc etc once a sheeple, always a sheeple,. Sorry taxpayer...

 

[sptrawler]

Here is a short video explaining the zappi charger.

I think this is more the issue and is where the ground work is really being done, also where the investment outcomes are produced.
Chargers are important, but having chargers that are compliant with energy providers is probably more important, if the customer wants to get any return.
I guess it is like everything, finding the sweet spot, not too early, not too late.

Page Not Found

www.agl.com.au

From the article:

About OVO

OVO is a collection of companies driving progress to net zero carbon living through harnessing clean, affordable energy for everyone. Across the group, OVO serves nearly 5 million customers with intelligent energy technology solutions to decarbonise homes. Founded in 2009 by Stephen Fitzpatrick, OVO redesigned the energy experience to be fairer, greener and simpler for all. Today, OVO is on a mission through its sustainability strategy, Plan Zero, to tackle the most important issue of our time - the climate crisis.

www.ovo.com

About Kaluza

Part of OVO, Kaluza is a leading intelligent energy platform powering the future of energy. From revolutionising billing to smart electric vehicle charging, Kaluza’s technology is empowering some of the biggest energy suppliers to better serve millions of customers. Its real-time cloud platform transforms supplier operations, reducing cost to serve and boosting customer engagement. Powered by Kaluza, suppliers can invest in innovating for tomorrow’s customers and drive decarbonisation with smart, low carbon technologies that not only reduce energy bills, but lay the foundations for a more flexible energy system.

 

[moXJO]

Lots of people, most people only fill up their car with fuel once a week, and could do that on the week ends, while they have a sleep in, or even while they are at their office, think about all the real estate agents, dentists, lawyers, etc etc operating out of neighbourhood type offices with parking out the back where their cars sit all day.

the fact is you don’t actually have to think about it, you just plug in and it will just charge when conditions are right through out the week, and if you notice it’s getting low you press the button and boost it up over night.

Also you only have to look at the timings of peak hour traffic flows to see that there are a lot less cars on the road in the middle of the day than there are in the mornings and late afternoon, so people could be charging while at work or after the morning school run etc.

Most people drive their car for less than 2 hours day, that’s alot of opportunity to be charging.

Not everyone has the luxury of being a lazy bugger like me, that basically rolls around when he wants.
My biggest concern is 9-5'ers that are being pushed out of cities already and travel greater distances. With housing you now have two people working so both cars are somewhere else during the day. Or if you have millions of kids like me then you have multiple vehicles.

Separate question for the techies:
If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?

If we truly are speeding towards this direction, it doesn't feel like we are doing enough at this stage.

 

[Value Collector]

Not everyone has the luxury of being a lazy bugger like me, that basically rolls around when he wants.
My biggest concern is 9-5'ers that are being pushed out of cities already and travel greater distances. With housing you now have two people working so both cars are somewhere else during the day. Or if you have millions of kids like me then you have multiple vehicles.

Separate question for the techies:
If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?

If we truly are speeding towards this direction, it doesn't feel like we are doing enough at this stage.

Easy, as I explained 9-5’ers can charge at night, there is plenty of time to charge between 10pm and 6am to recover the daily drive, remember not every one uses an entire tank of fuel every day, most use less than a 1/4 of a tank, so would use less than a 1/4 of a battery.

But as I also mentioned, the people operate their cars based on all sorts of timings, some people work nights and don’t leave home till 4 pm, they could charge during the day from 9 onwards.

others can charge at work, or in parking lots etc.

People seem to think 100% of people will need to charge every day from 0% to 100% this just isn’t the case.

 

[Value Collector]

Separate question for the techies:
If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?

If you have multiple Tesla chargers in one location all connected to the same power circuit, they communicate with each other and adjust charging rates as that they don’t overload the circuit, I imagine it’s not difficult for other charger brands to do the same. Aircons would be a different circuit.

for example, if a circuit has a max safe load of 22 kWhs and it has 10 chargers on it, if one car is plugged in it will be able to charge at the full 22 kWh, if a second car plugs in charging rate will slow on both cars to 11 KWh, if all 10 slots are plugged in charging rate drops to 2.2 KWH, but as some cars hit 100% and stop charging the rate will begin increasing again.

 

[over9k]

Surely you could just add a "only charge in off-peak times" switch to the charger?

 

[Value Collector]

This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.

If you ever travel to the colder parts of the USA, you will see entire parking lots fitted with power points used to keep engines warm in winter.

There is nothing really challenging with adding power points or charging cables to a certain percentage of parking spots if there were a need for it. But I don't see it being necessary most people will charge at home, or at fast chargers, but there will be car park owners that see profit to be made by adding extra services such as charging to their car parks.

 

[Smurf1976]

Separate question for the techies:
If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?

The short answer in a typical situation is:

If it's managed such that they don't all charge at once whilst the air-conditioning and other loads are at maximum then no problem, it's doable.

If they do all charge at once then, in the absence of a supply upgrade, it'll trip the breakers / blow the fuses and there goes all power to the building. An electrician should refuse to install such an arrangement if it's not up to scratch, but if it's just plugged into existing power points well then nobody can really stop that being done.

Same concept at a whole of town, state or national level.

Eg 45 degree day in Adelaide - there's effectively zero spare capacity in the grid around 7pm (indeed the infrastructure is barely able to cope as is fairly well known locally) but after that capacity gradually becomes available as load declines and by the early morning putting even 1,000,000 kW into EV's across the state wouldn't be a real drama, any issues would be purely local ones (eg a dozen EV's in the one garage etc). On a mild day it's not as extreme but the same basic pattern applies, there's a peak 6 - 7pm and far lower demand at other times.

Same basic pattern in all states with minor differences in the timing.

This chart of the load on centralised electricity supply, that is all sources except rooftop solar, for NSW shows the issue pretty clearly. So long as the charging isn't adding to the peak then no problem but if it does add to the peak, on a hot / cold day when demand already spikes, then that's a huge issue.

Green = load with scale on the right, purple = market price at the time with scale on the left. Solid line represents actual data for the past day, dotted line is forecast for tomorrow.

In states with a greater use of solar, eg SA, minimum load is around the middle of the day not overnight as in NSW (although NSW load around midday is certainly coming down as more rooftop solar is installed).

Source = AEMO



So there's spare capacity outside the peaks not only with generation but in the network as well and, given that there's generally no particular reason why an EV needs to charge straight away, it seems logical to make use of that existing spare capacity to do the job. That's the cheap and easy approach.

It's the same basic logic as saying that if you wanted to move lots of big wide loads at 20 km/h through the city well then police and transport authorities will be happy to facilitate it being done at a time when few others are on the roads, but they'd likely outright refuse to allow it if you wanted to do it during the commuter traffic peak when it would cause outright chaos. Much the same concept, if you're going to put a big load on and timing isn't critical then it's sensible to do it when not many others are using it.

That is of course assuming that the aim is to do it in the most economical and environmentally friendly way that works. More infrastructure could certainly be built, nothing precludes that, but it's $ and not without at least some environmental impact.

 

[qldfrog]

I think this is more the issue and is where the ground work is really being done, also where the investment outcomes are produced.
Chargers are important, but having chargers that are compliant with energy providers is probably more important, if the customer wants to get any return.
I guess it is like everything, finding the sweet spot, not too early, not too late.

Page Not Found

www.agl.com.au

From the article:

About OVO

OVO is a collection of companies driving progress to net zero carbon living through harnessing clean, affordable energy for everyone. Across the group, OVO serves nearly 5 million customers with intelligent energy technology solutions to decarbonise homes. Founded in 2009 by Stephen Fitzpatrick, OVO redesigned the energy experience to be fairer, greener and simpler for all. Today, OVO is on a mission through its sustainability strategy, Plan Zero, to tackle the most important issue of our time - the climate crisis.

www.ovo.com

About Kaluza

Part of OVO, Kaluza is a leading intelligent energy platform powering the future of energy. From revolutionising billing to smart electric vehicle charging, Kaluza’s technology is empowering some of the biggest energy suppliers to better serve millions of customers. Its real-time cloud platform transforms supplier operations, reducing cost to serve and boosting customer engagement. Powered by Kaluza, suppliers can invest in innovating for tomorrow’s customers and drive decarbonisation with smart, low carbon technologies that not only reduce energy bills, but lay the foundations for a more flexible energy system.

After spending a while in the startup pitch world, i can recognise pure BS from afar and this definitively one
As investors, it does not really count, look at Zoom and so many other unicorns: as long as you can offload to another sucker be it investor, corporation,bigger fish or Gov, you are laughting to the bank
But do not expect any real world result.

 

[qldfrog]

The short answer in a typical situation is:

If it's managed such that they don't all charge at once whilst the air-conditioning and other loads are at maximum then no problem, it's doable.

If they do all charge at once then, in the absence of a supply upgrade, it'll trip the breakers / blow the fuses and there goes all power to the building. An electrician should refuse to install such an arrangement if it's not up to scratch, but if it's just plugged into existing power points well then nobody can really stop that being done.

Same concept at a whole of town, state or national level.

Eg 45 degree day in Adelaide - there's effectively zero spare capacity in the grid around 7pm (indeed the infrastructure is barely able to cope as is fairly well known locally) but after that capacity gradually becomes available as load declines and by the early morning putting even 1,000,000 kW into EV's across the state wouldn't be a real drama, any issues would be purely local ones (eg a dozen EV's in the one garage etc). On a mild day it's not as extreme but the same basic pattern applies, there's a peak 6 - 7pm and far lower demand at other times.

Same basic pattern in all states with minor differences in the timing.

This chart of the load on centralised electricity supply, that is all sources except rooftop solar, for NSW shows the issue pretty clearly. So long as the charging isn't adding to the peak then no problem but if it does add to the peak, on a hot / cold day when demand already spikes, then that's a huge issue.

Green = load with scale on the right, purple = market price at the time with scale on the left. Solid line represents actual data for the past day, dotted line is forecast for tomorrow.

In states with a greater use of solar, eg SA, minimum load is around the middle of the day not overnight as in NSW (although NSW load around midday is certainly coming down as more rooftop solar is installed).

Source = AEMO

View attachment 126641

So there's spare capacity outside the peaks not only with generation but in the network as well and, given that there's generally no particular reason why an EV needs to charge straight away, it seems logical to make use of that existing spare capacity to do the job. That's the cheap and easy approach.

It's the same basic logic as saying that if you wanted to move lots of big wide loads at 20 km/h through the city well then police and transport authorities will be happy to facilitate it being done at a time when few others are on the roads, but they'd likely outright refuse to allow it if you wanted to do it during the commuter traffic peak when it would cause outright chaos. Much the same concept, if you're going to put a big load on and timing isn't critical then it's sensible to do it when not many others are using it.

That is of course assuming that the aim is to do it in the most economical and environmentally friendly way that works. More infrastructure could certainly be built, nothing precludes that, but it's $ and not without at least some environmental impact.

The overall fundamental issue i see is from a general concept one..
Whole policies built on the average guy,which means anyone outside the gauss peak is screwed, 9 to 5 is more 7 to 6 for many,then outter suburbs, rural households are sacrificed, or the x% who do shift jobs, the baker, the tradie with his ute and trailer.
Anyway, i do not doubt the most efficient economic model is a ant nest, but pity once more the freedom and individual.

 

[rederob]

I think this is more the issue and is where the ground work is really being done, also where the investment outcomes are produced.
Chargers are important, but having chargers that are compliant with energy providers is probably more important, if the customer wants to get any return.
I guess it is like everything, finding the sweet spot, not too early, not too late.

Page Not Found

www.agl.com.au

From the article:

About OVO

OVO is a collection of companies driving progress to net zero carbon living through harnessing clean, affordable energy for everyone. Across the group, OVO serves nearly 5 million customers with intelligent energy technology solutions to decarbonise homes. Founded in 2009 by Stephen Fitzpatrick, OVO redesigned the energy experience to be fairer, greener and simpler for all. Today, OVO is on a mission through its sustainability strategy, Plan Zero, to tackle the most important issue of our time - the climate crisis.

www.ovo.com

About Kaluza

Part of OVO, Kaluza is a leading intelligent energy platform powering the future of energy. From revolutionising billing to smart electric vehicle charging, Kaluza’s technology is empowering some of the biggest energy suppliers to better serve millions of customers. Its real-time cloud platform transforms supplier operations, reducing cost to serve and boosting customer engagement. Powered by Kaluza, suppliers can invest in innovating for tomorrow’s customers and drive decarbonisation with smart, low carbon technologies that not only reduce energy bills, but lay the foundations for a more flexible energy system.

As you, @Smurf1976 and @Value Collector keep pointing out, there are existing solutions to every issue raised in this thread.
On the other hand there are not enough EVs to cause a problem in Oz at the moment, nor a federal government that wants to proactively create a climate that facilitates a transition to EVs that has been underway in many countries for years.
Sadly we remain a backwater, and despite the government's rhetoric about innovation and job creation it has done very little to assist market sectors which have shown considerable growth overseas due to decarbonisation policies.
Or simply understand where the future lies:

 

[basilio]

As you, @Smurf1976 and @Value Collector keep pointing out, there are existing solutions to every issue raised in this thread.
On the other hand there are not enough EVs to cause a problem in Oz at the moment, nor a federal government that wants to proactively create a climate that facilitates a transition to EVs that has been underway in many countries for years.
Sadly we remain a backwater, and despite the government's rhetoric about innovation and job creation it has done very little to assist market sectors which have shown considerable growth overseas due to decarbonisation policies.
Or simply understand where the future lies:

Great site, great story. Watching how a city of 12million people can totally electrify their buses and taxis in a few years is impressive. The last few clips are also inspiring.

Well. well worth viewing and appreciating the point of going electric and the capacity of China to make it happen effectively.
It was never a simple deal and they never said otherwise.