Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.8%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.6%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.8%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.7%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    197
At last, the narrative is turning around to the technical issues with BEV's, the trails being carried out are obviously highlighting issues, which is a lot better than the problems showing up when the uptake increases.
AGL is also carrying out charging trails and some smart charging control software from the U.K.
From the article:
Australian power giant Origin Energy has called for governments to provide incentives for electric car smart chargers in garages to prevent motorists plugging in en masse during the peak evening demand period from overloading the grid.

As Victoria and NSW embark on ambitious plans to accelerate electric vehicle uptake, an Australian-first trial conducted by Origin has found that when EVs are adopted more widely charging times will need to be managed to minimise risks of blackouts and price spikes.
The trial has so far installed smart chargers for 70 residential electric vehicle owners and 33 businesses and obtained their baseline charging data. Smart chargers co-ordinate recharging times with periods of surplus solar-power supply, such the middle of the day, and avoid adding strain to peak demand periods on the grid from 5-6pm onwards.
Chau Le, Origin’s head of e-mobility, said more than 60 per cent of participants prior to the trial had been plugging their car batteries into standard sockets in their garages, usually during the evenings. With smart-charging devices, most charging still occurred in the evening, but the consumption could be spaced out to ease the load on the grid, she said.

“Without incentives and regulatory policies that encourage smart charging, that’s what’s going to happen when mass-market adoption takes off; you’re going to have all these EVs [electric vehicles] that are being charged that cannot be enrolled onto smart-charging programs or cannot be managed,” Ms Le said.
“We do expect ... that will cause constraints on the network and the wholesale market, if it’s not managed properly.

The trial was jointly funded by the federal government’s Australian Renewable Energy Agency.

As many electric cars are likely to spend extended periods parked in home garages, power companies say smart chargers could also work like “batteries on wheels”. When plugged in, car batteries could soak up excess power from rooftop solar panels, dispense it later into virtual power plants – groups of hundreds or thousands of homes with solar and batteries linked up to manage demand and energy flows – and generate a potential profit for customers.

Electric cars could account for an additional 22 terawatt hours of load on the electricity grid by 2040, according to Origin.

The Victorian government has set a target for electric vehicles to account for 50 per cent of new sales by 2030 and subsidies of up to $3000 for buyers, while NSW on Sunday also announced a $3000 upfront discount and said it would waive stamp duty for buyers.

AGL interim managing director Graeme Hunt, who welcomed the NSW government’s announcement on Sunday, said initiatives that facilitate the rollout of electric vehicles and investment in infrastructure were important steps in electric vehicles “becoming a bigger part of Australian life”.

“The uptake and integration of electric vehicles in the Australian market will be influenced by initiatives that facilitate consumer access and developing technical insights to inform regulatory design,” he said.
 
more than 60 per cent of participants prior to the trial had been plugging their car batteries into standard sockets in their garages, usually during the evenings.
That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.

EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.

The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis. :2twocents
 
That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.

EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.

The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis. :2twocents
Which is what we have been saying, if the governments incentivises the purchase of BEV's, before we have the infrastructure and charging systems worked out it will be absolute madness IMO.
AGL recently started a BEV charging system trail and from memory purchased a U.K based control system, until these trails are over and everything is sorted accelerating the uptake of BEV's will be a nightmare IMO.
https://arena.gov.au/projects/agl-electric-vehicle-orchestration-trial/
 
Wont be long before you will be able to sell some of your BEV capacity to the grid. :xyxthumbs
From the article:
AGL and OVO, which is Britain’s third-largest energy provider, said Australia had one of the world’s highest levels of rooftop solar generation. Kaluza’s software would help address grid challenges by “intelligently shifting” device charging to times of lower demand. It could also present customers with financial incentives to dispatch energy from their batteries and electric cars when needed.
That is the post in March, I was looking for.
 
That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.

EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.

The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis. :2twocents
but most EV will need to be charged by night, retirees like me are exception and will not affect the grid as we will use free PV from roof panel, But the average Joe, will arrive home at 6 at the earliest and be gone potentially at 6 or 7,with maybe a run for the kid's soccer or shopping so he will not plug before 8PM or so,at a period with 0 solar input, and less than 10h free for loading, loading taking 6 to 10h or so..not much room at the present so ideally you charge the cars at work or at the parking, in the street...yet good luck for that...
Technically ok, socially> a failure in waiting if you expect sharing public access power-points..look howeven phone booths were treated 30y ago, at a time where people were much better "behaved"
 
the average Joe, will arrive home at 6 at the earliest and be gone potentially at 6 or 7,with maybe a run for the kid's soccer or shopping so he will not plug before 8PM or so,at a period with 0 solar input, and less than 10h free for loading, loading taking 6 to 10h or so..not much room at the present so ideally you charge the cars at work or at the parking, in the street...yet good luck for that...

What's needed is a smart approach.

If the battery is already 90% charged then it tops up at 3am.

If it's half charged then it charges 1am - 6am.

If it's near flat then it starts at 9pm in order to fully charge.

Etc and make that happen automatically.

That's a crude example but the technical need is to avoid a situation where most people come home sometime between late afternoon and early evening, plug the car in and it charges straight away then by ~7pm they're reaching full charge. Since electricity demand already peaks a bit after 6pm that scenario would be an outright nightmare and cost $ billions in infrastructure to make it work.

Versus charging in the middle of the night or during the 10am - 3pm period it's vastly more manageable using existing infrastructure.

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough to not be a problem. :2twocents
 
Technically ok, socially> a failure in waiting if you expect sharing public access power-points..look howeven phone booths were treated 30y ago, at a time where people were much better "behaved"
FWIW there's a big difference between countries there.

I've seen a line of EV's parked at night, outside on a street, in France and nobody seemed to be interfering with them. They were all plugged in and this was a public street out in the open with anyone (eg me) walking past.

More extreme, I've seen public mobile phone charging stations overseas located outside in the open with an umbrella like covering and yes they supply the cable. That sort of thing probably wouldn't survive a single day in Australia unfortunately but it didn't seem to be a problem in Qatar when I spotted it. Charging station just sitting there and all the cables for different phones were there with it.

Cultural issues will preclude some options in some places I think yes. :2twocents
 
FWIW there's a big difference between countries there.

I've seen a line of EV's parked at night, outside on a street, in France and nobody seemed to be interfering with them. They were all plugged in and this was a public street out in the open with anyone (eg me) walking past.

More extreme, I've seen public mobile phone charging stations overseas located outside in the open with an umbrella like covering and yes they supply the cable. That sort of thing probably wouldn't survive a single day in Australia unfortunately but it didn't seem to be a problem in Qatar when I spotted it. Charging station just sitting there and all the cables for different phones were there with it.

Cultural issues will preclude some options in some places I think yes. :2twocents
Fully agree,would be interested to see what happened in France to these.
When thousand of cars parked in the street are burn every new year for the fun of it, velib and ev cars projects abandoned due to vandalism...i would not take France or any big town there as an example.
Even Germany ffs :
https://insideevs.com/news/504179/charging-station-minced-meat/amp/
the programs abandoned
https://europe.autonews.com/article...d-toyotas-stall-car-sharing-program-in-france
https://europe.autonews.com/article...dalism-is-a-hazard-of-ev-car-sharing-in-paris
And as France is descending into a collapsed lawless state. It will be an interesting experience.
 
Fully agree,would be interested to see what happened in France to these.
No idea about those but whilst not an EV charger, a phone charger would seem far more vulnerable to vandalism but in some countries at least that doesn't seem to be a problem.

Spotted this one in Qatar (back in the days before the pandemic....) and note the cables, which are far more flimsy than anything used with an EV, just hanging there ready for use.

1624365407416.jpeg

Also one of the few places in the country where there's any such thing as a lawn. They don't really do grass there - too hot and dry.

So it seems a real shame if people vandalising etc is going to stop the use of EV chargers in public.
 
No idea about those but whilst not an EV charger, a phone charger would seem far more vulnerable to vandalism but in some countries at least that doesn't seem to be a problem.

Spotted this one in Qatar (back in the days before the pandemic....) and note the cables, which are far more flimsy than anything used with an EV, just hanging there ready for use.

View attachment 126480

Also one of the few places in the country where there's any such thing as a lawn. They don't really do grass there - too hot and dry.

So it seems a real shame if people vandalising etc is going to stop the use of EV chargers in public.
So the green paradise: sharia law to allow EV development otherwise the permissive western societies will be unable to maintain required infrastructure
 
So the green paradise: sharia law to allow EV development
I wouldn't go quite that far.....

I do think cultural issues are an aspect of this that has been overlooked however and will be relevant in some parts of the world.

If cars are normally parked on a street, but vandals smash the chargers, well that's a problem definitely.

The UK, with the tendency to park cars basically anywhere they'll fit, is another problematic one that comes to mind.

I'm sure it'll be done but there's going to be issues in some places definitely.
 
That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.

EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.

The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis. :2twocents
It’s one of the easiest problems to solve, definitely not a deal breaker for EV’s.

Tesla’s actually multiple ways to customise timing of charging already, I have mine set to begin charging at 9am each day when ever it is at home plugged in, because that is when my solar system is normally hits it limit of 5 KWH exports, so I have to use the excess power or my system gets limited.

With Tesla’s you have to options, you can set what time you want charging to begin or what time you want it to finish.

half the people set it to begin charging between 10pm and 12pm each night, and the other half set it to finish charging by 6am that would spread the charging across the off peak time.

while a lot of people would be charging during the day, during peak solar times.
 
Converting car washes to EV charging stations. Practical and clever.

Ex-Liberal leader in new venture to convert 60 car washes to EV charging stations

car-wash-1619823_1920-copy-800x467.jpg

A new company chaired by former NSW Liberal leader Kerry Chikarovski has bought up 60 car washes around Australia, and plans to transform them into ultra-fast electric vehicle charging stations.

The company, called Bell Resources, will install solar panels and a battery at each car wash, and use them to power ultra-fast chargers ranging from 175 to 350 kilowatts.

The company’s chief executive, Mark Avery, told The Driven the chargers would eventually be able to charge EVs to 80 per cent in well under 10 minutes.

He said initially the plan would be to install around 100 kW of solar capacity at each site, but as demand grew, more capacity would be added by leasing space on neigbouring buildings, and other places. The batteries, built by Swedish firm ABB, would start at around 200kWh with the potential to increase in 100kWh blocks as demand grew, he said.

Avery said the car washes were mostly small operators, but would be brought under the uniform “Bell Hub” branding, and upgraded to resemble petrol stations, complete with “barista coffee” facilities and boards out the front advertising the going rate by the kilowatt.

The self-serve car wash facilities – which he said were often highly profitable – would remain there, though customers would not be able to charge and wash their car simultaneously.

Avery said the batteries would allow the company to set dynamic pricing, meaning at certain times – when the battery is well charged but demand is low – the cost per kilowatt could fall as low as 10 cents.

 
The company, called Bell Resources, will install solar panels and a battery at each car wash, and use them to power ultra-fast chargers ranging from 175 to 350 kilowatts.

Wasn't Bell Resources Robert Holmes a Court's company of decades ago ?
 
Converting car washes to EV charging stations. Practical and clever.

Ex-Liberal leader in new venture to convert 60 car washes to EV charging stations

View attachment 126513

A new company chaired by former NSW Liberal leader Kerry Chikarovski has bought up 60 car washes around Australia, and plans to transform them into ultra-fast electric vehicle charging stations.

The company, called Bell Resources, will install solar panels and a battery at each car wash, and use them to power ultra-fast chargers ranging from 175 to 350 kilowatts.

The company’s chief executive, Mark Avery, told The Driven the chargers would eventually be able to charge EVs to 80 per cent in well under 10 minutes.

He said initially the plan would be to install around 100 kW of solar capacity at each site, but as demand grew, more capacity would be added by leasing space on neigbouring buildings, and other places. The batteries, built by Swedish firm ABB, would start at around 200kWh with the potential to increase in 100kWh blocks as demand grew, he said.

Avery said the car washes were mostly small operators, but would be brought under the uniform “Bell Hub” branding, and upgraded to resemble petrol stations, complete with “barista coffee” facilities and boards out the front advertising the going rate by the kilowatt.

The self-serve car wash facilities – which he said were often highly profitable – would remain there, though customers would not be able to charge and wash their car simultaneously.

Avery said the batteries would allow the company to set dynamic pricing, meaning at certain times – when the battery is well charged but demand is low – the cost per kilowatt could fall as low as 10 cents.

How can one invest in this type of company that is not on the ASX ?
 
How can one invest in this type of company that is not on the ASX ?

Check it out on the net and join the queue ? :)

 
It’s one of the easiest problems to solve, definitely not a deal breaker for EV’s.
Agreed it’s easily solved.

The concern I have, and which is also becoming a concern of energy companies, is about it actually being done since research suggests that to very considerable extent it isn’t in practice.

I’ve used the analogy of rubbish bins in explaining it to others.

Dead simple as a concept and absolutely proven technology but despite that in practice litter is still a problem.

Something being possible is one thing, getting people to actually do it isn’t always so straightforward and that’s the concern - not just of me but of some rather big companies as well who’ve noticed the gap between possible and actual.

That’s a marketing and consumer behaviour problem rather than a technical one so far as solutions are concerned.
 
Agreed it’s easily solved.

The concern I have, and which is also becoming a concern of energy companies, is about it actually being done since research suggests that to very considerable extent it isn’t in practice.

I’ve used the analogy of rubbish bins in explaining it to others.

Dead simple as a concept and absolutely proven technology but despite that in practice litter is still a problem.

Something being possible is one thing, getting people to actually do it isn’t always so straightforward and that’s the concern - not just of me but of some rather big companies as well who’ve noticed the gap between possible and actual.

That’s a marketing and consumer behaviour problem rather than a technical one so far as solutions are concerned.
The easiest way to get consumers to charge when you want them to charge is to offer them a plan with pricing that incentivise them to charge during off peak times.

At the moment most retail plans charge consumers the exact same price for electricity regardless of whether they charge during peak or off peak, that’s a bit silly.

I mean if a retailer can buy a KWH for 5 cents at after midnight, they should offer EV owners a plan that sells them power that KWH for 10 cents after midnight, other wise the consumer won’t care what time they charge, and might plug in when that KWH costs the retailer 40 cents or $1 which is what they are really worried about.

if they tell consumers that power is going to cost them 24 cents regardless of the time of day, the consumer won’t care about the time of day they charge.

if they want us to charge at midnight out of the goodness of our heart so they can make huge margins at our expense, some of us will do it and some won’t.
 
That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.

EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.

The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis. :2twocents
Simply adjusting power prices appropriately for peak vs off peak (or even three tiers) will make people self smart-charge.

Almost every problem like this is a simple question of incentive structure.
 
@sptrawler would be the man to ask about how the grid needs to change. I would guess it would actually be a lot better to have a higher baseload so there's less difference/change in draw over the 24 hour cycle but I'm only guessing.
 
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