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Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.7%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.4%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 38 19.2%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.6%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    198
If you have wind and solar power, and no oil or gas, it makes strategic sense to move to an energy platform that is not susceptible to external disruption.
That's aside from the health and environmental benefits achieved from an orderly transition to renewables.
Aside from that, EV's are likely to be produced more cheaply than ICE vehicles within a decade, aside from their running costs being less and their batteries being both repurposable and recyclable .
And it's aside from the fact that oil and gas are not long term solutions as they are finite resources.
So setting a target date for transition makes perfect sense from multiple perspectives.
I agree with your sentiment 100%, the only problem is, it is built on a lot of assumptions that are yet to materialise.

As oil and gas are finite source, so are battery materials and as yet the recovery processes of their base materials in in its infancy.
Setting a target date is just a way of appeasing some, what if there are reasons that the targets can't be met? Just move the target as usual.
I think the general public get sick of being taken for bunnies by politicians making promises, that are outside their control.
As has been shown in recent history, all targets do, is give the media something to fill their content quotas with.
As happened with the vaccine roll out, the politicians promise it will be complete by a certain time, what happens? First not enough vaccine, now there is enough vaccine, not enough people want it. ?
 
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I agree with your sentiment 100%, the only problem is, it is built on a lot of assumptions that are yet to materialise.
As oil and gas are finite source, so are battery materials and as yet the recovery processes of their base materials in in its infancy.
Actually all the data is available to show that the trends simply need to be sustained over the coming years, so it's only a matter of when, rather than if.
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I don't understand your point about battery materials being finite as all mined metals are recyclable. BEVs are a bit like wind farms and solar panels in terms of recycling demand. Until there is an economic imperative to recycle them, or government regulation, then they will be like like every computer you have ever owned and tossed out.
 
Actually all the data is available to show that the trends simply need to be sustained over the coming years, so it's only a matter of when, rather than if.
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I don't understand your point about battery materials being finite as all mined metals are recyclable. BEVs are a bit like wind farms and solar panels in terms of recycling demand. Until there is an economic imperative to recycle them, or government regulation, then they will be like like every computer you have ever owned and tossed out.
What is the old saying about don't use past performance as a future guide, trends are an historic representation, I could put up a graph of the trend toward nuclear power 50-60 years ago and make the assumption we would be full nuclear by now.
With materials that have gone through a chemical reaction, to extract some of their properties, some of those original properties are lost therefore the recovery rate is yet to be quantified on a major scale.
There will be some substance recovered, how useful that is in relation to the recovery cost, is yet to be tested.
As I said. I'm all for the concepts, but am realistic enough to know assumptions are usually the root cause of major stuff ups.

As you say most mined metals are recyclable, but one ton of iron ore when put through a blast furnace, doesn't make one ton of steel and once the steel is made it would be extremely difficult to get the one ton of iron ore back.
 
What is the old saying about don't use past performance as a future guide, trends are an historic representation, I could put up a graph of the trend toward nuclear power 50-60 years ago and make the assumption we would be full nuclear by now.
With materials that have gone through a chemical reaction, to extract some of their properties, some of those original properties are lost therefore the recovery rate is yet to be quantified on a major scale.
There will be some substance recovered, how useful that is in relation to the recovery cost, is yet to be tested.
As I said. I'm all for the concepts, but am realistic enough to know assumptions are usually the root cause of major stuff ups.

As you say most mined metals are recyclable, but one ton of iron ore when put through a blast furnace, doesn't make one ton of steel and once the steel is made it would be extremely difficult to get the one ton of iron ore back.
When you examine the issue carefully it is about how costs decrease with innovation and scale. BEVs are in their infancy, and the trend of reduced prices into the coming decade is likely to reflect those of other "green" initiatives. It's hard to see the hundreds of billions of dollars being poured into BEV production leading to more expensive cars!
With regard to recycling, there is presently no commercial or regulatory imperative, so while it's cheaper to pull minerals from the ground, that's likely to continue.
Oh, and the iron content of 62% iron ore, for example will never be more than 620kg.
 
Oh, and the iron content of 62% iron ore, for example will never be more than 620kg.
And when it has lime, sinter, manganese, sulfur, silicon and heat added to it, as I said it is difficult to return it to its base components, through an extraction process. That is not even taking into account, the adding of alloying elements when the pig iron is turned into steel.
 
And when it has lime, sinter, manganese, sulfur, silicon and heat added to it, as I said it is difficult to return it to its base components, through an extraction process. That is not even taking into account, the adding of alloying elements when the pig iron is turned into steel.
recycling usually means lowering of quality (except for gold and a lesser degree glass), these full cycle industry are pipe dreams or only return a fraction of the original balance; do not take me wrong , it is good, but there is a limit, and even more while humanity is growing and demand even more resources..unless you decide to let population grow rampant and reduce living standard: no more meat or fish, tiny homes(flats actually), no individual car etc etc etc, the reverse chinese model aka the Reset.The great EV move is sadly part of that scheme more than a technical solution.Due to resource constraint, it is more swap your ICE car with an EV Uber or bus than replace your holden by a Tesla.Which can make sense with urban living in europe etc, but forget any rural/regional living.
 
And when it has lime, sinter, manganese, sulfur, silicon and heat added to it, as I said it is difficult to return it to its base components, through an extraction process. That is not even taking into account, the adding of alloying elements when the pig iron is turned into steel.
Given we were originally talking about recycling, I have no idea what the tangent of ore refining has to do with this topic.
If you toss a tonne of scrap metal steel into a blast furnace, that's pretty well what you get back.
Redland Materials is recovering in excess of 90% of the key materials in rechargable batteries and selling most to Panasonic for their battery production.
Answering your other points:
  • Setting a target date is just a way of appeasing some - No, it's actually a means to achieving an internationally agreed CO2 level
  • what if there are reasons that the targets can't be met? - There are no known reasons unless governments renege on their Paris Agreement commitment
  • Just move the target as usual. - Or do what Morrison does and pretend the target will be met by dodgy accounting and faith
  • I think the general public get sick of being taken for bunnies by politicians making promises - Or in our case a do nothing government that brings coal into Parliament because it cannot plan
  • As has been shown in recent history, all targets do, is give the media something to fill their content quotas with - Ah, your theme of "blaming the media" comes to the fore. The best journalism holds governments to account, and so should we.
I did like your vaccine analogy. It confirmed at every level Morrison's incompetence when it comes to planning our nation's future.
 
Given we were originally talking about recycling, I have no idea what the tangent of ore refining has to do with this topic.
If you toss a tonne of scrap metal steel into a blast furnace, that's pretty well what you get back.
Redland Materials is recovering in excess of 90% of the key materials in rechargable batteries and selling most to Panasonic for their battery production.
Answering your other points:
  • Setting a target date is just a way of appeasing some - No, it's actually a means to achieving an internationally agreed CO2 level
  • what if there are reasons that the targets can't be met? - There are no known reasons unless governments renege on their Paris Agreement commitment
Like Bob Hawke and no child shall be living in poverty by 1990, great target, great intent. Absolute nonesense, as is your statement.
You say there is no known reason, unless governments renege, maybe get on the phone to your mates.

By the way, that is nearly the whole load of our East Coast grid, so they are putting in, in one year, what we are trying to take out. Ironic hey.



  • Just move the target as usual. - Or do what Morrison does and pretend the target will be met by dodgy accounting and faith
The W.A Labor government has stated there will be 100GW of hydrogen production by 2030, in W.A alone and by 2040 200GW, so what Morrison is saying is absolutely correct. That is unless the W.A Labor Gov is wrong? But you run with the Morrison hate campaign, that will never change.

  • I think the general public get sick of being taken for bunnies by politicians making promises - Or in our case a do nothing government that brings coal into Parliament because it cannot plan
Just more nonsense Morrison hate vitriol. Maybe you could bring us up to speed on labor's plan to achieve their target?
  • As has been shown in recent history, all targets do, is give the media something to fill their content quotas with - Ah, your theme of "blaming the media" comes to the fore. The best journalism holds governments to account, and so should we.
The best journalism has long past, maybe you haven't been noticing how many times they are being successfully sued recently.
I did like your vaccine analogy. It confirmed at every level Morrison's incompetence when it comes to planning our nation's future.
I'm pleased you liked something, most unusual for you. ?
 
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The battery swap out model, is being started in the U.S, no doubt there will be a place for both plug in, swap out and a combination of both styles in the end.
 
Like Bob Hawke and no child shall be living in poverty by 1990, great target, great intent. Absolute nonesense, as is your statement.


The W.A Labor government has stated there will be 100GW of hydrogen production by 2030, in W.A alone and by 2040 200GW, so what Morrison issaying is absolutely correct. That is unless the W.A Labor Gov is wrong? But you run with the Morrison hate campaign, that will never change.

Just more nonsense Morrison hate vitriol. Maybe you could bring us up to speed on labor's plan to achieve their target?

The best journalism has long past, maybe you haven't been noticing how many times they are being successfully sued recently.
When I studied logic the idea of correct reasoning was important when examining anything.
Statements made without a sound basis are fundamentally flawed.
You continue to make points which are not sound.
The basis for the BEV trend has been in place for many years and is attracting significantly greater support at every conceivable level. To set a transitional timetable on known events is pragmatic, and very different from a politician's hope, which is all you have latched on to.
If you want to present a credible alternative you need to show which elements of the trend cannot continue and why.

With regard to Morrison, how about you lay out his plans, as the western world regards Australia as policy bankrupt, and so does Australian industry on this matter.
 
When I studied logic the idea of correct reasoning was important when examining anything.
Statements made without a sound basis are fundamentally flawed.
You continue to make points which are not sound.
The basis for the BEV trend has been in place for many years and is attracting significantly greater support at every conceivable level. To set a transitional timetable on known events is pragmatic, and very different from a politician's hope, which is all you have latched on to.
If you want to present a credible alternative you need to show which elements of the trend cannot continue and why.
Well you have answered your own question, pragmatic or hope, as has been proven, they are one and the same and often politically motivated. As per my Bob Hawke example.

With regard to Morrison, how about you lay out his plans, as the western world regards Australia as policy bankrupt, and so does Australian industry on this matter.
How about you answer my question, what is labors plan, they are actually committing to the target therefore that is more pertinent. Maybe they are being pragmatic with a touch of hope. ?
With regard BEV's, the industry and some people are pushing for incentives, yet at the same time the government is being criticised for adding more debt.
Hard to please some, especially the media, who push both the need for incentives and the blow out of government debt barrow.
Considering you studied logics, it would be nice, if you started applying some to your debate.
 
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Well you have answered your own question, pragmatic or hope, as has been proven, they are one and the same and often politically motivated.

How about you answer my question, what is labors plan, they are actually committing to the target therefore that is more pertinent. Maybe they are being pragmatic with a touch of hope. ?
A workforce, infrastructure and materials presently making something happen is totally different to a hope that it will happen, but I understand you are not able to discern the difference based on your comments here.

With regard to real policies on EVs - given the Liberals have none - I suggest you read what other parties have at their respective websites, such as the Greens, seeing you have not taken the time to learn for yourself. The Nationals have a zero net emissions policy (ie they have made none) on reneawables, EVS and climate change, so you can also give them a miss.
 
A workforce, infrastructure and materials presently making something happen is totally different to a hope that it will happen, but I understand you are not able to discern the difference based on your comments here.

With regard to real policies on EVs - given the Liberals have none - I suggest you read what other parties have at their respective websites, such as the Greens, seeing you have not taken the time to learn for yourself. The Nationals have a zero net emissions policy (ie they have made none) on reneawables, EVS and climate change, so you can also give them a miss.
I think you studied equivocation, not logics. ? ?
 
SA Liberal government response to encouraging uptake of BEV.
And the business response to the proposal...
Shows just how important and effective clear Government polices on fast tracking BEV is.:2twocents

Hundreds of businesses want to host EV charging stations in regional SA

More than 600 property owners and businesses across regional and remote South Australia have put up their hands to host electric vehicle charging stations, in response to a state government-led push to establish a statewide EV fast charging network.

As part of a $13.4 million commitment to support the shift to zero emissions transport, the SA Liberal government has called for registrations of interest to become EV fast charger site hosts, including in key tourist areas like the Adelaide Hills, Eyre Peninsula and Limestone Coast.

The huge response to the scheme has underscored the growing public enthusiasm for electric vehicles in a state that has led the world on the shift to renewable energy.
 
The "mining" and recycling of once used minerals, in particular Li Ion batteries, is moving swiftly. Pilot plants have proven successful. Full size commercial plants are 1-3 years away. Australian companies are amongst those at the forefront of this technology.

DECARBONISING CRITICAL RAW MATERIALS SUPPLY CHAINS IN THE EU

26/05/2021
8:44 am

Corporate Presentation - 121 EMEA Conference

14976KB
 
SA Liberal government response to encouraging uptake of BEV.
And the business response to the proposal...
Shows just how important and effective clear Government polices on fast tracking BEV is.:2twocents

Hundreds of businesses want to host EV charging stations in regional SA

More than 600 property owners and businesses across regional and remote South Australia have put up their hands to host electric vehicle charging stations, in response to a state government-led push to establish a statewide EV fast charging network.

As part of a $13.4 million commitment to support the shift to zero emissions transport, the SA Liberal government has called for registrations of interest to become EV fast charger site hosts, including in key tourist areas like the Adelaide Hills, Eyre Peninsula and Limestone Coast.

The huge response to the scheme has underscored the growing public enthusiasm for electric vehicles in a state that has led the world on the shift to renewable energy.
Yes Bas the same as W.A is doing, which makes perfect sense, they control the electrical assets they need to control the roll out.
There are some regional areas and Towns that still run small diesel gen sets, a charging station may well require a distribution/generation upgrade.
That's applying logics and local knowledge, to a logistical issue. It isn't something that can be worked out in the cafes and wine bars of Sydney ?

 
That's applying logics and local knowledge, to a logistical issue. It isn't something that can be worked out in the cafes and wine bars of Sydney :cautious:

It's a Government setting out out policy guidelines which enable businesses to make sensible economic decisions.
 


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