Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

Ban petrol cars ?

Better idea than subsidising electric vehicles IMO.
The Government money would be better spent, subsidising the retraining of the auto mechanics and auto electricians, so that the manufacturers haven't got a monopoly on working on the BEV's and charging stupid prices, due to no competition.
Also has the added benefit of upskilling TAFE courses, in preperation for the demise of the ICE trade as we know it.

 

[Smurf1976]

Ban petrol cars ?

So long as it's only new sales then no problem.

I'd be extremely strongly opposed to any banning of the use of existing vehicles however. That sort of thinking is where governments all too often lose the plot.

A ban on new petrol cars from 2030 or 2035 seems reasonable but someone should still be able to drive their existing petrol car so long as anyone's selling petrol to run it with. Socially as well as politically, that's the sensible approach.

 

[Value Collector]

Ban petrol cars ?

Is this Australia's next light bulb moment?

Australians usually embrace the future. At times we've been ahead of it. Could no new sales of internal combustion cars by 2035 be our next challenge, asks Peter Martin.

www.abc.net.au

The light bulb is actually a good example, and very relevant to the debate on EV’s.

The modern LED and the Fluorescent tube bulbs were much cheaper to run than their incandescent competitors, but they required a much larger up front cost to buy them.

incandescent bulbs cost only cost $1 but they burned about 4 times the electricity and only lasted 1000 hours vs $10 for LEDs and Fluorescents that lasted 10,000 to 30,000 hours, and could save you about $20 in electricity over their life.

The governments ban of incandescent bulbs was the right move, it stop consumers making the wrong choice and buying the cheap bulb and forced them to buy the better investment, which also lead to the new bulbs becoming cheaper as economies of scale kicked in.

EV’s are exactly the same, they are more expensive upfront, but are much cheaper in fuel and far less maintenance, it may just be the right move.

 

[Value Collector]

So long as it's only new sales then no problem.

I'd be extremely strongly opposed to any banning of the use of existing vehicles however. That sort of thinking is where governments all too often lose the plot.

A ban on new petrol cars from 2030 or 2035 seems reasonable but someone should still be able to drive their existing petrol car so long as anyone's selling petrol to run it with. Socially as well as politically, that's the sensible approach.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting banning the exisiting cars, just like no one suggested banning the existing light bulbs, they will just ban new sales.

 

[Smurf1976]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting banning the exisiting cars, just like no one suggested banning the existing light bulbs, they will just ban new sales.

Agreed it's not proposed in Australia at the present time.

Certainly the idea has emerged overseas however and it's the sort of thing that someone may well grab hold of if given the chance.

I'm in favour of EV's but I don't trust governments when it comes to this sort of thing. If they can find a way to tax or regulate then there's a portion of politicians who'll jump at the chance no matter what the consequences.

 

[SirRumpole]

Agreed it's not proposed in Australia at the present time.

Certainly the idea has emerged overseas however and it's the sort of thing that someone may well grab hold of if given the chance.

I'm in favour of EV's but I don't trust governments when it comes to this sort of thing. If they can find a way to tax or regulate then there's a portion of politicians who'll jump at the chance no matter what the consequences.

I'm afraid that we can't expect ev's to be tax free forever, regardless of the benefits to the environment through reduced emmissions.

It's simply a matter of replacing fuel tax revenue which goes to a lot of other services besides roads.

It depends on how you replace the revenue. It's easier for some governments to tax ev's than putting a tax on resource exports for example.

Motorists have less clout than big companies.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm afraid that we can't expect ev's to be tax free forever, regardless of the benefits to the environment through reduced emmissions.

It's simply a matter of replacing fuel tax revenue which goes to a lot of other services besides roads.

It depends on how you replace the revenue. It's easier for some governments to tax ev's than putting a tax on resource exports for example.

Motorists have less clout than big companies.

Yep, and if smoking continues to drop out of favour we will need to bring in a fresh air tax on all the non smokers.

I gave up alcohol last year, so I am expecting a sobriety tax to kick in shortly hahaha.

it’s been talked about here before, that EV owners still pay council rates, vehicle registration, Toll fees, and GST on electricity purchases, it to mention they help reduce health care expenses related to air pollution.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yep, and if smoking continues to drop out of favour we will need to bring in a fresh air tax on all the non smokers.

I gave up alcohol last year, so I am expecting a sobriety tax to kick in shortly hahaha.

it’s been talked about here before, that EV owners still pay council rates, vehicle registration, Toll fees, and GST on electricity purchases, it to mention they help reduce health care expenses related to air pollution.

Your irony is not lost on me but sure, if revenue from any source like smokers is reducing then it has to be made up somehow if we expect services to continue.

Maybe over time, improvement in air quality from ev's will lead to a reduction in health costs, but as they say it won't happen overnight and there are other services that need to be maintained.

Like others, I certainly don't trust governments when it comes to taxes. I remember about 30 years ago in NSW a "temporary surcharge was introduced on drivers licences to cover losses on third party insurance. This was simply "absorbed" into the drivers license fee and therefore became permanent.

 

[Value Collector]

Your irony is not lost on me but sure, if revenue from any source like smokers is reducing then it has to be made up somehow if we expect services to continue.

Maybe over time, improvement in air quality from ev's will lead to a reduction in health costs, but as they say it won't happen overnight and there are other services that need to be maintained.

Like others, I certainly don't trust governments when it comes to taxes. I remember about 30 years ago in NSW a "temporary surcharge was introduced on drivers licences to cover losses on third party insurance. This was simply "absorbed" into the drivers license fee and therefore became permanent.

The replacement Tax doesn’t have to be an exact mirror of the old tax though, eg a reduction in Alcohol tax doesn’t have to be matched with a soft drink of tea tax, we could just crack down on global companies that are avoiding Australian tax, or increase marginal rates, or increase GST who knows?

I think EV’s affect on health care costs will be proportionate to the number of EV’s on the road.

So once there is enough EV’s on the road that the revenue stream of fuel tax is noticeable, the improving quality of the Air should should be noticeable, offsetting costs almost perfectly.

 

[SirRumpole]

The replacement Tax doesn’t have to be an exact mirror of the old tax though, eg a reduction in Alcohol tax doesn’t have to be matched with a soft drink of tea tax, we could just crack down on global companies that are avoiding Australian tax, or increase marginal rates, or increase GST who knows?

I think EV’s affect on health care costs will be proportionate to the number of EV’s on the road.

So once there is enough EV’s on the road that the revenue stream of fuel tax is noticeable, the improving quality of the Air should should be noticeable, offsetting costs almost perfectly.

Well, the problem is that you have to quantify what the improvement in air quality means in dollar terms before you can come to a conclusion that ev's have been worthwhile in terms of reducing costs.

I'm not suggesting that money is the only means of determining "value" , how can you measure "quality of life" ? EV's will certainly be beneficial to quality of life, but as I said before fuel tax revenue also goes towards things like education, infrastructure, aged care etc so you have to account for any losses that those areas will suffer as a result of diminished revenue.

And you are right, we can look at other forms of revenue that aren't directly related to what we are trying to replace.

 

[Value Collector]

Well, the problem is that you have to quantify what the improvement in air quality means in dollar terms before you can come to a conclusion that ev's have been worthwhile in terms of reducing costs.

I'm not suggesting that money is the only means of determining "value" , how can you measure "quality of life" ? EV's will certainly be beneficial to quality of life, but as I said before fuel tax revenue also goes towards things like education, infrastructure, aged care etc so you have to account for any losses that those areas will suffer as a result of diminished revenue.

And you are right, we can look at other forms of revenue that aren't directly related to what we are trying to replace.

yes I agree fuel tax goes to a lot of general other items besides roads, so why does it have to be a tax related to vehicles? Just bring in some other General tax, considering it’s going to be used for general purposes.

 

[SirRumpole]

yes I agree fuel tax goes to a lot of general other items besides roads, so why does it have to be a tax related to vehicles? Just bring in some other General tax, considering it’s going to be used for general purposes.

It doesn't have to be a tax related to vehicles, it's entirely political.

The original justification for fuel excise was that it was to pay for roads, which was a distortion. Some of it paid for roads, the rest went into other areas.

Pollies have a hard time justifying tax increases, just look at the GST.

The pollies will play off the ev drivers against the ICE drivers, saying they are priviliged somehow by not paying fuel excise therefore they should pay more.

It's just a political game.

 

[Smurf1976]

I'm afraid that we can't expect ev's to be tax free forever, regardless of the benefits to the environment through reduced emmissions.

Not just tax but also things like the possibility that some politician, one who works for the actual top end of town, comes up with an idea like banning the use of ICE cars in certain locations (eg the CBD) or at certain times or whatever.

An idea that'll be presented as saving the planet but in reality it's just about maintaining the class distinction. Get those poor people off the roads and out of the way of the rich is what it comes down to in practice. Such ideas are already around in a few places overseas.

As with all this energy and environmental stuff, the big problem is absolutism. The tendency of the argument for EV's to descend into one that assumes 100% of vehicles must be electric in the very near future. Or arguments about power supply which insist that it's either 100% coal or it's 100% renewables with nothing in between. Such binary logic is unhelpful in the real world where what works is a gradual transition that'll see ICE and EV's both on the roads for many years to come with the former gradually decreasing and the latter increasing.

 

[over9k]

Hybrid manufacturers gamed that quite some time ago - an electric only mode that lasts only a few minutes/an hour. So you just flick it into electric only mode, cruise through the town, then fire the ICE engine up again once you're outside of the electric only zone.

 

[sptrawler]

Hybrid manufacturers gamed that quite some time ago - an electric only mode that lasts only a few minutes/an hour. So you just flick it into electric only mode, cruise through the town, then fire the ICE engine up again once you're outside of the electric only zone.

That is true, the wait time on the Toyota RAV4 hybrid got out to 9 months, apparently they were very popular.
Ive still got a V6 diesel, so cant give an opinion on EV's at this time.

 

[over9k]

Hah. I drive a turbo diesel that doesn't even have a cat in the exhaust. I roll coal every time I get in it.

(I use it for towing & transport though so do actually have some kind of reason)

 

[qldfrog]

Not just tax but also things like the possibility that some politician, one who works for the actual top end of town, comes up with an idea like banning the use of ICE cars in certain locations (eg the CBD) or at certain times or whatever.

An idea that'll be presented as saving the planet but in reality it's just about maintaining the class distinction. Get those poor people off the roads and out of the way of the rich is what it comes down to in practice. Such ideas are already around in a few places overseas.

As with all this energy and environmental stuff, the big problem is absolutism. The tendency of the argument for EV's to descend into one that assumes 100% of vehicles must be electric in the very near future. Or arguments about power supply which insist that it's either 100% coal or it's 100% renewables with nothing in between. Such binary logic is unhelpful in the real world where what works is a gradual transition that'll see ICE and EV's both on the roads for many years to come with the former gradually decreasing and the latter increasing.

You are a breath of fresh air Mr Smurf
Smurf for PM?

 

[basilio]

How to rev up petrol heads over electric cars.

‘It’s like a rocket ship’: videos show coalminers behind the wheel of an electric car

An Australian engineer-turned climate activist hosts Coal Miners Driving Teslas, a YouTube and Twitter channel heavily spiced with unbridled swearing

www.theguardian.com

 

[over9k]

They'll never replace ICE cars for motorsport. Never. Electric cars are about as exciting as watching paint dry.

 

[SirRumpole]

They'll never replace ICE cars for motorsport. Never. Electric cars are about as exciting as watching paint dry.

Technology solves all problems.

Tesla electric cars now available with V8 exhaust sound

A UK firm has invented a bolt-on exhaust system that make electric cars sound like a V8, V10 or V12.

www.caradvice.com.au