Electric cars?

[PZ99]

In my opinion cars with extreme range like that are not necessary and will have more drawbacks than positives.

There is almost no real world practical benefits to having 1000 Km range, think about it, do you ever actually drive 1000 km's without stopping for 15 mins or so to use the bathroom and stretch your legs? probably not, you probably make multiple stops on that 1000km trip anyway, so you are better off having a 500 or 600 km range battery, and charge for 15mins somewhere along the way on a usual pee break you will make anyway, and then your battery will be 40% lighter, which makes your car more efficient over all and saves unnecessary tyre wear.

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If you had 600km of range at the start of a trip (because you charged at home), you 1000km road trip would look something like this.

Drive for 500km (5 hours)
< charge for 15mins while you pee >
Drive for another 300km (3 hours)
< charge for 10 mins while you pee and grab a coffee >
Drive for another 200km (2 hours)


You will probably find that you normally stop for much longer than that in your petrol car anyway.

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Last weekend I did a two vehicle road trip with family, Me in my Tesla the sister and brother in-law's car was petrol, people other mistakenly think that in such a road trip the Tesla will be the car causing the delays and inconvenience, however before the road trip even began my brother in-law had to make a special trip to the petrol station before we left that morning, where as my Tesla was full having charged over night, when we arrived in the town I was able to plug my car into a free charger right in the centre of town and walk away and enjoy family time, so I picked up a free charge and didn't suffer any time loss.

Once we got home, I just plugged the car into my home charger and hit the shower, however the brother in-law was on empty by the time we got home and had to make a special trip to the servo and waste another 10 - 15mins of his time so he had full to go to work the next day.

The simple point is that refuelling a petrol car is something that most people a desensitised too, however when you look at it from the EV perspective, its not at all convenient most of the time, and wastes alot of time, 8 hours a year on average.

The flaw in that logic is it doesn't take 15 minutes to fill your car with petrol. On a petrol stop, you fill the car, you pay the bill, you move the car elsewhere, have your break, and let the next car fill up.

On an EV recharge - your car stays plugged in for the entire time you're there so that station is unavailable for the entire time you're there. That means you're gonna need a trrrrruckload of EV stations to cater for folks on a 1000k trip. It's not practical.

Much better to just have the range available from the start. You then have the luxury of stopping anywhere you like for a pee break - you're not confined to park at the next available EV re-charge station.

 

[Value Collector]

The flaw in that logic is it doesn't take 15 minutes to fill your car with petrol. On a petrol stop, you fill the car, you pay the bill, you move the car elsewhere, have your break, and let the next car fill up.

Thats my point.

Petrol car system is

1, park at petrol bowser, connect car.
2, wait the 5 - 6 minutes while you fill.
3, walk into store, line up and pay.
4, walk back to car and move it.
5, go find toilet, food, have your break.

(All this easily consumes 15mins or more)


EV system is

1, Park car and connect charger
2, go find toilet, food, have your break.

(you still consume the same time as the petrol car, but the time is used doing better things)

On an EV recharge - your car stays plugged in for the entire time you're there.
That means you're gonna need a trrrrruckload of EV stations to cater for folks on a 1000k trip. It's not practical.

You can build as many charging locations as you need as demand grows, and they are much easier to install than petrol stations that need tanks etc, you can even put charging locations in areas you couldn't put petrol stations like rest stops areas, wineries, cafes, shopping centres etc etc.

not to mention, temporary charging locations can be added to absorb long week end traffic etc.

Look at this trailer Tesla deployed in the USA to a popular charging spot to add capacity during a long weekend, when they need temporary high capacity.





and when they need permanent high capacity then can build huge charging locations


check out this super charger

 

[PZ99]

Australia doesn't have the electrical capacity in the grid to supply the amount of chargers you're going to need.

I would even go as far as suggesting a federal wire and pole upgrade would be required. Can't see it happening now.

I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be around when there's a few dozen cars queued up for a charge during a load shedding event or three in summer

Your proposal has one major obstacle.. land space

 

[Value Collector]

Australia doesn't have the electrical capacity in the grid to supply the amount of chargers you're going to need.

I would even go as far as suggesting a federal wire and pole upgrade would be required. Can't see it happening now.

I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be around when there's a few dozen cars queued up for a charge during a load shedding event or three in summer

Your proposal has one major obstacle.. land space

We have been through this before in this thread.

But with the vast majority of charging happening at home, during off peak times it won't be an issue.

Also, Tesla is in the business of Solar and Battery packs, those big charging stations not only have their own solar on the roof, but Tesla could easily install battery packs to arbitrage their solar and electricity purchases to take advantage of supply and demand times if that was really required to be economic.

and remember this is going to happen slowly, we aren't going 100% electric over night, it's going to take time, so there is plenty of time to make adjustments.


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But feel free to by a car with a 1000km range, all I am saying is that it isn't necessary and is probably the disadvantages out weigh the positives.

My Dad just put a deposit down on a Tesla, and I talked him out of getting the long range version, after driving my car for over a year now, on many road trips I realise the long range version is not needed.

Your proposal has one major obstacle.. land space

with most charging happening at home, we would actually need less space than what current petrol stations take up, and as I said they can be in rest stops etc where cars normally park during breaks.

and land is not something we are short of on Australias road trip routes.

 

[PZ99]

It won't be a disadvantage for me at all. I can charge up and do the trip with whatever breaks I need safe in the knowledge the car will do the entire trip without any external aid.

I think such a vehicle will be common place before the infrastructure would ever be available for the required number charging stations needed in this country. We have a poor record of infrastructure rollout and our political system is too unwieldy to ever get this sort of thing right. NBN being a classic example.

If or when they do get it right hopefully the EV's might be cheap enough for us poor folk to buy one outright

 

[Value Collector]

It won't be a disadvantage for me at all.

It will, because it means you are carrying around a battery that is maybe 300kg heavy than it needs to be, using more energy and more tyres.

I can charge up and do the trip with whatever breaks I need safe in the knowledge the car will do the entire trip without any external aid.

Once you have and EV, you will realise that this type of thinking is just what's called "range anxiety", it goes away once you are used to the car and see first hand how it fits into your life.

I think such a vehicle will be common place before the infrastructure would ever be available for the required number charging stations needed in this country

The infrastructure already mostly exists, and will just be added to as demand grows.


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We have a poor record of infrastructure rollout and our political system is too unwieldy to ever get this sort of thing right. NBN being a classic example.

Luckily we down rely on the government, the private sector especially Tesla is rolling out the infrastructure.

If or when they do get it right hopefully the EV's might be cheap enough for us poor folk to buy one outright

Well thats another factor in avoiding unnecessarily large batteries, its lowers the price, the long range version of my car is nearly $20K more expensive, thanks partly to the luxury vehicle tax.

The standard range comes in below the luxury vehicle tax threshold, but the extra $14K needed to get the long range upgraded gets 33% tax added to it, meaning you have to pay $18,000 or so.

 

[PZ99]

I wouldn't call it "range anxiety" - just more convenience.

I highly doubt we've reached the zenith of battery technology that I'd need another 300kg in the future.

If the price of EV's is lower in the future it'll avoid anachronisms such as luxury car taxes.

Using more energy and more tyres is something I haven't worried about since the 70's.

 

[Value Collector]

I wouldn't call it "range anxiety" - just more convenience.

I highly doubt we've reached the zenith of battery technology that I'd need another 300kg in the future.

If the price of EV's is lower in the future it'll avoid anachronisms such as luxury car taxes.

Using more energy and more tyres is something I haven't worried about since the 70's.

As I said it’s up to you, but I think once you have done a road trip in a decent EV with 500km or so or range, you will find the range of the car isn’t a limiting factor once you.

And there is so many benefits to EV ownership that waiting for an affordable 1000km range vehicle for to long might be silly when there may be a 500km range vehicle in your price range that would be perfect for you in the real world

But as I said it’s a personal decision, I was just trying to point out that there are negatives that people don’t think about, and positives of large batteries are probably over stated.

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to be honest if battery capacity doubled over night, I would probably still take a 500 or 600km battery, and halve the weight.

 

[Smurf1976]

You will probably find that you normally stop for much longer than that in your petrol car anyway.

As someone who's done a reasonable amount of long distance driving around Australia, my observation is that it's not so much about range per se as it's about the certainty of refueling.

In short there's lots of places selling petrol and diesel such that missing one, or finding it's broken, or deciding to take a 100km detour that wasn't planned isn't an issue. For that matter very rarely have I even needed to consciously find a petrol station - there's simply a lot of them and they're very easily recognised even from a distance such that simply filling up when I see one has been sufficient.

That approach works in Australia even if you really are driving from Adelaide to Perth. If the tank's less than half full and you see a servo then fill up there and you'll be fine. It also works fine in more densely populated countries - I've driven around the UK using the same approach, never did I consciously look for fuel just bought some when I saw it and if the tank was getting low.

Once public EV chargers are similarly ubiquitous the concerns will go away.

In the meantime well it's great that there's another EV charger 200km after this one, but if I decide along the way that I'm going to take a scenic detour to look at whatever and that adds another 60km ach way well then now it's 320km between charges. Etc. How often I do that isn't important - I only need to get stuck in the middle of nowhere once for it to be a major problem.

Realistically 500km should be fine, I can't see a problem with that in practical use, but I do see an issue once people start talking about 150km range and so on as some seem to favour as a cost reduction measure.

 

[Value Collector]

As someone who's done a reasonable amount of long distance driving around Australia, my observation is that it's not so much about range per se as it's about the certainty of refueling.

In short there's lots of places selling petrol and diesel such that missing one, or finding it's broken, or deciding to take a 100km detour that wasn't planned isn't an issue. For that matter very rarely have I even needed to consciously find a petrol station - there's simply a lot of them and they're very easily recognised even from a distance such that simply filling up when I see one has been sufficient.

That approach works in Australia even if you really are driving from Adelaide to Perth. If the tank's less than half full and you see a servo then fill up there and you'll be fine. It also works fine in more densely populated countries - I've driven around the UK using the same approach, never did I consciously look for fuel just bought some when I saw it and if the tank was getting low.

Once public EV chargers are similarly ubiquitous the concerns will go away.

In the meantime well it's great that there's another EV charger 200km after this one, but if I decide along the way that I'm going to take a scenic detour to look at whatever and that adds another 60km ach way well then now it's 320km between charges. Etc. How often I do that isn't important - I only need to get stuck in the middle of nowhere once for it to be a major problem.

Realistically 500km should be fine, I can't see a problem with that in practical use, but I do see an issue once people start talking about 150km range and so on as some seem to favour as a cost reduction measure.

In the Tesla, you just plug your destination into the navigation and it plans a route that takes you past super chargers if it knows you will need to charge.

with navigate on autopilot it will even exit the freeway for you, hahaha.

You have all the info about the chargers located on your route both on the car screen and you app, you can even see how many charging bags are available live.

 

[SirRumpole]

Real life experience driving an EV in regional areas.

It just confirms my belief that hybrids are the way to go for the foreseeable future.

How well do electric cars really work in the bush?

We hit the highway for an all-electric 1,200km regional road test and made it home — just.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

As someone who's done a reasonable amount of long distance driving around Australia, my observation is that it's not so much about range per se as it's about the certainty of refueling.
.

That is it in a nutshell, in the 1980's-90's lpg was the new wonder fuel, but very few other than those who lived in the city bought an lpg only car, most converted to dual fuel.
Many country towns had the lpg filling at the rural trading store, if you turned up after Saturday lunch time it was closed until Monday morning, also I arrived at some refueling depots and they weren't operational.
Electricity is much a much more flexible and readily available fuel, however I'm sure many outlets will suffer from maintenance and damage issues, that will require specialist repair people. There are very few other than licensed electricians that like to play with H.V electrical appliances, so until the outlets are widespread, numerous and can charge all vehicles, people will be nervous about relying on them being available.

 

[moXJO]

I remember the first time I rode to qld on a 250cc motorbike (p plates) with a range of about 200-250km over an 1100km trip
It was an absolute pain as I had to plan out where the petrol stations were and the distance between. This was before smart phones. Often I was caught out as a petrol station was closed, few times I was running on fumes.

But it became easier over time, to the point you stop worrying about running out. Familiarity changes your attitude.

 

[sptrawler]

and when they need permanent high capacity then can build huge charging locations


check out this super charger




View attachment 112443

When every car is electric that will be a small recharging station.

 

[Value Collector]

When every car is electric that will be a small recharging station.

Yep, as I said as demand grows so will the charging locations (growth in size and number).

However, because most people will be charging at home we will probably never need the amount of charging stations as we need petrol stations currently.

Think about it, if it was possible to fill your car with petrol at home for 25 cents per Litre every night, how many people would be paying for the inconvenience of stoping at a petrol station?.... not many, except for people on road trips, or people that burn more than 1 tank of petrol a day or people that don't have garages, but 99% of people will be happy to never attend a service station.

Also, with the charging stations being easily installed just about any where such as existing service stations, shopping centres, rest stops, cafes, wineries, dedicated new facilities, hotels, existing parking lots etc etc etc, there is no shortage of space to put them as we need to grow.

 

[Value Collector]

Real life experience driving an EV in regional areas.

It just confirms my belief that hybrids are the way to go for the foreseeable future.

How well do electric cars really work in the bush?

We hit the highway for an all-electric 1,200km regional road test and made it home — just.

www.abc.net.au

He should have chosen a Tesla to drive.

here is a screen shot of the recommended Tesla charging locations.

I chose the lowest range Tesla for this, the route takes 12hours and includes 1.18 hours of charging breaks broken up between 4 stops, ( as I always say, in a 12 hours drive you will least make 4 pee/food breaks, the longest charge is 19mins, the shortest is 7mins, but you generally get to the super charger with 40% charge remaining, so you can leave a super charger earlier of stay longer and it just means you stay longer or less time at the next one.

 

[basilio]

Electric Cars ?

Been around for years. Why President Eisenhower himself drove around in the families electric car for ages and used it in his 1952 election campaign.

 

[SirRumpole]

He should have chosen a Tesla to drive.

Yes, Tesla should own all the charging stations like Toyota should own all the petrol pumps.

Commonality of charging adapters should be sorted out before it gets out of control.

 

[qldfrog]

Real life experience driving an EV in regional areas.

It just confirms my belief that hybrids are the way to go for the foreseeable future.

How well do electric cars really work in the bush?

We hit the highway for an all-electric 1,200km regional road test and made it home — just.

www.abc.net.au

yes , agree I read the article, whatever the optimism or enthusiasm of the journalist, i would summarise his/her experience as dreadful...
if I get an EV, it will be for short trips etc and as such more a Nissan leaf than a Tesla.
Interestingly, I am moving on a small farm and need an ATV (aka a smalll 4WD able to negotiate steep hills wo overturning to move woods and fencing material, bring hay, etc etc etc;a small farm workhorse
limited range needed..
I thought: that is a great EV field: always home, recharged daily as only used during the day, not too many km a day, just need grunt..well I was disappointed as the only option I found was a Polaris EV based on acid lead batteries..yeap...
So I will go from 2 to 3 ICE vehicles in the household...
disappointing

 

[sptrawler]

Electric Cars ?

Been around for years. Why President Eisenhower himself drove around in the families electric car for ages and used it in his 1952 election campaign.

In 1901 40% of cars were electric and 20% were petrol, the difference is development of ICE engines has come a long way, batteries haven't, but I'm sure that will change in the near future.

Baker Motor Vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org