Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Moxjo, like everyone else, you are always entitled to your own particular opinion.

Both Tesla and Apple struggled with out Elon and Steve, the proof is in the pudding, neither company would be what it is today without those to individuals at the helm.

A certain amount of people will always try and down ramp the achievements of true visionaries, that build great companies, they seem always seem to discount the skill, effort and dedication it takes to bring and idea into being and build a company.

As I said earlier the fact Walt Disney wasn't the best cartoonist is irrelevant, he could recognise good animation, understood story telling, and could inspire a team, I think Elon and Steve jobs are in the same category, there are heaps of great engineers sitting around, it takes a leader with big ideas to give the great engineers projects to work on, and push them to be their best, and blend multiple disciplines.

 

[sptrawler]

Ford and GM are classic examples of companies which failed to adapt to change indeed they actively tried to resist it in order to pursue short term profit at the expense of tomorrow. The problem with that is that tomorrow does come.

Now they're playing catchup and it may well be too late.

Very much like Australia and it's reliance on depleting mineral resources, that we are riding into the ground, much like Ford and GM are doing with ICE.
The difference is they can adapt their manufacturing, we can't replace our resources, so who are the mugs.
We meanwhile run around in circles chasing social reform, while the very thing that funds it is allowed to be stripped away at cheap prices, ah the clever Country so sharp we cut ourselves.
There is some pluses to being old, you wont see the result.

 

[Smurf1976]

As I said earlier the fact Walt Disney wasn't the best cartoonist is irrelevant, he could recognise good animation, understood story telling, and could inspire a team, I think Elon and Steve jobs are in the same category, there are heaps of great engineers sitting around, it takes a leader with big ideas to give the great engineers projects to work on, and push them to be their best, and blend multiple disciplines.

I don't worship celebrities, far from it, but as a basis for research music's not a bad one given the abundance of bands and singers and information about them.

Pick any era post-WW2 and any popular music genre.

Whoever's most associated with it, the name that first comes to mind, in the vast majority of cases wasn't really that good at it.

What they did have was the best overall package. They had songs, usually written by others, that were good enough, they were fashionably dressed (or minimally dressed......), they had great marketing, they came across to the public as likeable and so on. So long as they were able to sing well enough in a studio such that a decent sounding recording could be produced, they didn't need to be brilliant at it and that was the case long before autotune was invented.

Likewise Musk or Jobs have no need to be brilliant engineers. So long as they can grasp that they can always employ others who are brilliant in that area. What they do need to be great at is the package, at selling the message and attracting investment and so on.

If you look at what Bill Gates did for Microsoft, well appearing in TV ads and on stage was a big part of it and same with the others commonly associated with computers back then. Selling the product was a huge part of what they achieved.

In contrast, well who on earth ever actually owned a BlackBerry? OK, it wasn't zero but the answer is "not many". Much the same as there's plenty of brilliant singers that nobody's ever heard of. Etc. There's more to it than just technical ability.

 

[sptrawler]

Absolutely Tesla use the same batteries as most other manufacturers, it is all about wrapping and selling the dream.?

Tesla has been using 18650 cells manufactured by Panasonic in Asia in the Models S and X cars since 2013. ... The most popular battery pack supplied by Tesla contains 7,104 18650 cells in 16 444 cell modules capable of storing up to 85 kWh of energy.Aug 6, 2017

 

[Value Collector]

Great at grandstanding in front of a crowd.

And that's all you need to succeed.

I am also not sure why people think that Elon is a slick talker, he is pretty socially awkward, I can you really watch the first few minutes of this and honestly think his strength in public speaking???

Its not his public speaking that has got him where he is, its understanding what's possible and what is needed, and building a team that can bring his vision to life, which he has done multiple times.

 

[sptrawler]

From memory apple nearly went broke and I think microsoft had to in some way help them out, then they went from strengh to strengh.
Right place, right time, second time.
It is all about timing IMO.
Elon has nailed it, right place, right product, right time.
His day in the sun might not last, but he is riding it well, you have to give him credit.

 

[moXJO]

I am also not sure why people think that Elon is a slick talker, he is pretty socially awkward, I can you really watch the first few minutes of this and honestly think his strength in public speaking???

Its not his public speaking that has got him where he is, its understanding what's possible and what is needed, and building a team that can bring his vision to life, which he has done multiple times.

PR, not necessarily slick public speaking. Between social media and fan boy stadium events these guys create energy. I mentioned the rest before about utilising others.
Elon has a host of flops that others had to correct. Some major flops that get glossed over.

But they fit the role. Steve jobs and apple and elon and tesla.

 

[Smurf1976]

Between social media and fan boy stadium events

Key term there is fan boy.

Being able to create that following in the first place, and sustain it, of itself gets around a lot of other hurdles and removes the rational analysis from the purchasing decision.

Tesla fans want a Tesla. That someone else might have a better product won't change that in the slightest. It's a similar concept to saying fans of whatever football player or author want to see that person play or read their books, it's irrelevant whether or not there's someone else better. Etc.

Telsa have achieved that not simply with one product but as a company. Tell someone you've got a big battery at home and they automatically assume it's a Tesla Powerwall despite there being quite a few other battery manufacturers.

 

[Value Collector]

From memory apple nearly went broke and I think microsoft had to in some way help them out, then they went from strengh to strengh.
Right place, right time, second time.
It is all about timing IMO.
Elon has nailed it, right place, right product, right time.
His day in the sun might not last, but he is riding it well, you have to give him credit.

Apple kicked Steve out of the company, and then nearly went broke, Steve came back and saved the company.

Also, remember Elon has been as you say “right place, right time, right product” 3 times so far.

He made his first couple of Million with Pay Pal, then became Billionaire with Tesla, and then Space Ex.

I think it’s a bit misleading to make him out to be a talentless promoter that got lucky, when he seems to be very smart in identifying tough problems and identifying solutions.

 

[Value Collector]

Absolutely Tesla use the same batteries as most other manufacturers, it is all about wrapping and selling the dream.?

Have you watched the battery day talk I posted above, it seems they are rethinking the entire battery process from mining, to factory to battery design.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think it’s a bit misleading to make him out to be a talentless promoter that got lucky, when he seems to be very smart in identifying tough problems and identifying solutions.

Well whatever he is we need entrepreneurs like him to at least take some of the boredom out of life and make us believe that there are better times ahead.

Whether he will overreach and bankrupt the company in the future remains to be seen.

He produces good products which is always a sign that he's got his head screwed on the right way as long as you know who doesn't steal it and produces cheap imitations that drive everyone else out of the market.

 

[sptrawler]

Well whatever he is we need entrepreneurs like him to at least take some of the boredom out of life and make us believe that there are better times ahead.

Whether he will overreach and bankrupt the company in the future remains to be seen.

He produces good products which is always a sign that he's got his head screwed on the right way as long as you know who doesn't steal it and produces cheap imitations that drive everyone else out of the market.

That is problem IMO, Tesla has opened a factory in that country, whether they can protect their intelectual property remains to be seen.

 

[CanOz]

Pretty sure Tesla’s technology is open source....

 

[moXJO]

Pretty sure Tesla’s technology is open source....

I know they didn't file patents for spacex because they were worried China would just steal it.

 

[basilio]

I still don't understand where you are coming from and maybe that's where we leave it.
For the record.

1) No way was I a fan of Holmes. The Wiki story was very clear that she was essentially a promoter and a fraud from the beginning. The concept of getting hundreds of test results from a small thumb prick was fundamentally impossible.

2) I highlighted the current crisis with Nikola because it raised the issue of fraud in business and in particular the stock market. From my perspective far too much money has been made through the stock market by creating vapourware and ramping implausible and often impossible projects. If these frauds aren't quickly detected and stopped I suggest honest enterprises will suffer and essentially the profits will end in the hands of conmen and grifters. It is simply far eeasier and less risky to make billions of dollars from spruiking dodgy companies than actually making and selling a worthwhile product.

3) Elon likely stole every idea ? That is just snide. He of all company heads has a strong suit in coming up with imaginative ideas and then finding the people who can make them happen.

The Hindenberg report on Nikola is extensive and detailed. It also manages to highlight may other people who have constructed backstories to create faith in their current Big Lie.

Our Conclusion: Nikola is a Massive Fraud Constructed on Dozens of Lies

Sometimes people misspeak by accident. No one has a perfect memory, and we all occasionally get things wrong.

But what we have witnessed at Nikola, and specifically from Trevor Milton, is a pattern of well-planned and deliberate acts of deception ranging from (a) the staging of non-working products as if fully functional, wrapped in numerous lies about capabilities that don’t exist; (b) the staging of misleading videos, which require extensive premeditation, planning and execution; (c) material lies about capabilities, partnerships and products that simply do not exist at all, on video and often in front of entire rooms full of people; and (d) a culture of secrecy and intimidation that to this point has largely kept it all under wraps.

We think Trevor Milton is incapable of telling the truth. We believe he lies like most people breathe. It is natural for him, and our extensive review of his history suggests it has been this way throughout his entire business career.

Every now and then a story comes around that exposes how little the “experts” really know. Theranos had inked partnerships with Walgreens, Safeway, and Cleveland Clinic and had staffed its board with luminaries. Madoff raised billions in capital from sophisticated investors across the globe.

The remarkable thing about Nikola’s story is not that someone like Trevor Milton exists, but that he has managed to parlay his stories and lies into deals with some of the best manufacturers and partners in the world by claiming to own vast proprietary technology and having successfully built revolutionary products that simply didn’t exist.

He transformed these deceptions and false promises into an empire that at one point was valued at $34 billion, larger than Ford and Fiat Chrysler. He’s signed deals with GM, Anheuser Busch, Bosch, Worthington, and a slew of significant automotive players. He received investment from Fidelity and ValueAct, among other name-brand institutions.

We truly think Nikola is both a sign of the times and a story for the ages.

Nikola: How to Parlay An Ocean of Lies Into a Partnership With the Largest Auto OEM in America – Hindenburg Research

hindenburgresearch.com

There are two big news stories in electric vehicles at the moment.

Nikola is in deep xhit because of an exposed and thoroughly documented history of corporate fraud. Not just a bit visionary. Not missing some production milestones that were just a bridge too far. Not for going down down a development path that proved to be a dead end.

The litany of corporate malfeasance is on the table and should cause all other potential partners to cut and run. The only other similar fraud I can remember was the Equity Company Corp scam of the 60's . (Interestingly enough the scammers attempted to takeover GM and raid their cash reserves to say their bacon)

Tesla on the other hand is building on a proven history of technology achievements and actual production. The battery day announcements may not have the boom elements that some people look for from Tesla, but the research, plans and strategies to remake the world car industry in the next 3 years are still breath taking.

Tesla has developed new battery technologies that will halve the cost of batteries, do away with cobalt, recycle old batteries and increase power and battery life by 50% . And they say they will be able to produce these for millions of cars in 3 years time. And they have the runs on the board to give people confidence this will happen.

My point was the value in exposing corporate fraud and having real consequences for the culprits. And not trying to tar other business participants with the same brush .

 

[over9k]

I'm with you there basilio. I also bought some NIO in the anticipation that it'll be the asian tesla.

With a lot of this stuff, if you miss the first boat, it's usually foolish to try & get on the second but often makes sense to get on one in another country, e.g amazon vs alibaba.

 

[Value Collector]

That is problem IMO, Tesla has opened a factory in that country, whether they can protect their intelectual property remains to be seen.

Tesla openly admits they can't make the world electric by them selves, its going to take a lot of companies making products, its a huge industry gap that needs filling, even if there is some cheap knock off teslas sold (just like knock off iPhones) I don't think it will prevent Tesla growing their business.

 

[Value Collector]

Tesla on the other hand is building on a proven history of technology achievements and actual production. The battery day announcements may not have the boom elements that some people look for from Tesla, but the research, plans and strategies to remake the world car industry in the next 3 years are still breath taking.

Tesla has developed new battery technologies that will halve the cost of batteries, do away with cobalt, recycle old batteries and increase power and battery life by 50% . And they say they will be able to produce these for millions of cars in 3 years time. And they have the runs on the board to give people confidence this will happen.
.

Yeah I know people were looking for there to be a big silver bullet battery announcement, but I actually think the battery day was even better than that.

It shows exactly how seriously Tesla is taking a holistic approach to manufacturing, its pretty exciting I haven't personally seen any other company with this level of dedication before, It shows me that this company is not going to be easily copied or replicated, they are building so many competitive advantages into their system its pretty amazing.

 

[Value Collector]

Apple kicked Steve out of the company, and then nearly went broke, Steve came back and saved the company.

Also, after Steve was forced out of apple in 1985 he went off and built another computer company that eventually morphed into a computer animation company called Pixar (think Toy Story), which has become one of the most successful animation studios in history, He then Sold it to Disney for $7.6 Billion and become Disneys largest shareholder, before returning to Apple to save the company and push the company to make the consumer products we know today.

So both Steve and Elon have built multiple Billion $$$ companies, To say either are muppets is wrong in my opinion.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is a great commentary of Tesla battery day.