Electric cars?

[luutzu]

Why, the cars can be charged during off peak times, the electricity demand starts crashing by 9 at night, and most peoples daily commute would only take less than2 hours of charging,

the power stations owners would love it, steady electric demand through hours that traditionally are loss making.

Yea, but most people would charge the moment they got home right?

But I'm pretty sure by the time EV are widely available, they'll managed to infuse solar panels into the car itself.

Most cars are parked all day. So may never need grid-charging except on weekends and long trips.

 

[Wysiwyg]

But I'm pretty sure by the time EV are widely available, they'll managed to infuse solar panels into the car itself.

This crystallised material holds the promise of revolutionary liquid solar cells
http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...s/news-story/db5e34d1fc8b201ea557f85fd9376b28

 

[Value Collector]

Yea, but most people would charge the moment they got home right?

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they have to start charging right away when you plug it in, off peak loads can be managed, you can program it to charge at certain times, or with the smart grid the the electric company can choose when to set the cars charging managing the load through the night.

But I'm pretty sure by the time EV are widely available, they'll managed to infuse solar panels into the car itself.

they have them already, but there is just not enough surface area on a car to make enough energy to make it worth while.

so its a bit of a gimmick and not really practical.

you would be better off adding an extra panel to your roof of your house, so it catch rays all day (generating revenue), while you car is parked in the garage.

 

[SirRumpole]

you would be better off adding an extra panel to your roof of your house, so it catch rays all day (generating revenue), while you car is parked in the garage.

That sort of eliminates the idea of driving the car to work...

Maybe if battery prices get so low you can have two sets, one charging at home, the other in the car and swap them over each night.

Can't see that happening though.

 

[Value Collector]

That sort of eliminates the idea of driving the car to work...

.

Huh?

You just drive the car to work and charge it when you get home.

I am saying that rather than have a solar panel on the roof of your car that does very little, it would be more productive to have that extra panel on the roof of your house, where it catches sun all day, running your fridge etc or just producing a credit on your bill to offset the electricity you use to charge later.

your roof is always in the sun, your car isn't.

So if you are going to spend money on a solar panel, its best for it to be in the sun as much as possible, rather than sitting in a garage most of the time.

It's a bit of a gimmick is all I am saying, most of us park our car in the shade if possible reducing the solar output, and if you park your car in the sun, you will have to blast the air con, using any extra charge generated just to bring the temp back down.

 

[luutzu]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they have to start charging right away when you plug it in, off peak loads can be managed, you can program it to charge at certain times, or with the smart grid the the electric company can choose when to set the cars charging managing the load through the night.



they have them already, but there is just not enough surface area on a car to make enough energy to make it worth while.

so its a bit of a gimmick and not really practical.

you would be better off adding an extra panel to your roof of your house, so it catch rays all day (generating revenue), while you car is parked in the garage.

Current solar tech won't do it, new advances might though.

If solar conversion rate get high enough, that spray-on potential... it could get to a point where battery packs can be reduced, lighten up the load/weight. But every bit help if the tech get advanced and cheap enough.

Then here's my yet to be patented idea: On park, the car/vehicle could raise an umbrella-like cover to both protect the car and increase coverage. Forget about overshadowing the other guys and they kicking your door in for taking their sunshine.

 

[Value Collector]

Current solar tech won't do it, new advances might though.

If solar conversion rate get high enough, that spray-on potential... it could get to a point where battery packs can be reduced, lighten up the load/weight. But every bit help if the tech get advanced and cheap enough.

Maybe, but those increases would also be increasing the effect of regular roof top solar, Meaning you would be even better off having the solar panel on the roof exposed to the sun.

I mean if your old style panel is going to produce 500 Watts on car and 1500 Watts on the roof, then the new style might make 1000 watts on the car and 3000 watts on the roof.

The increasing efficiency has increased the benefit of roof top, at first having it on the car meant you lost 1000 watts due to practical issues, but now you would be losing 2000 watts.

 

[sptrawler]

Why isn't cost a problem with renewables? renewables aren't free, they take a massive capital investment to set up, which has to pay for itself, So whether you are building an oil rig or a wind farm, you are building expensive infrastructure that has a limited life, that needs to generate enough revenue to cover its construction, running cost and a return on those invested funds.

You obviously didn't read the article, wind farms aren't using their max available generation all the time. They have to be backed off as the load reduces due to frequency constraints, this wouldn't be required if they were producing hydrogen during off peak periods.

 

[sptrawler]

Have you done the numbers on whether you could profitably run a wind farm and produce hydrogen? eg can a $100Million wind farm generate enough hydrogen to make the investment in both the wind farm and the conversion plant worth it, if not where is all this "excess" electricity going to come from, people aren't going to keep adding infrastructure once a glut forms.

You seem to miss the point that using the electricity to create hydrogen isn't as efficient as just using the electricity to charge a car.

eg, if you can get 1000km's out of an EV, using the same amount of electricity it takes a hydrogen car to move 300km's, what is the point of adding the complexity of a hydrogen network?

Well it is being done in Germany, the U.S and South Australia is going to install a plant.
The wind farm isn't being built to produce hydrogen, it is a by product of the generation, when it isn't required for export.

The advantage that hydrogen has over battery are many fold.
There is no problem with charging time.
There is no problem with depleted battery waste.
Storage isn't a problem, it can be used when required, it can sit there in a cylinder for months or years without loss.
Batteries have to be used, the electricity has to be there when you need it, you can't carry a tank of it.
Hydrogen can be used to power turbines, I.C.E, you can even burn it on your kitchen cooktop. You can't do any of those things with batteries.

Batteries have come a long way, but they still have massive shortcomings, which don't look like being overcome any time soon.

Hydrogens only draw back is the cost to produce it, in every other way it exceeds battery capability and is a much more flexible fuel, so it is only a matter of time IMO

 

[Value Collector]

They have to be backed off as the load reduces due to frequency constraints, this wouldn't be required if they were producing hydrogen during off peak periods.

It wouldn't be required if they had a bank of 9,000,000 cars and other vehicles across the nation ready to be charged either, not to mention other batteries in businesses and utility scale ones ready to take any cheap off-peak loads that come their way.

Cars are parked for more hours each day than they are driven, especially at night.

A national fleet of parked cars and other large scale batteries awaiting charge, could be used to completely level out the off-peak demand.

during the Peak times, Cars would stop charging and home and businesses with batteries could use their batteries, then as demand slows the electric companies starting charging cars and batteries all night.

the end result could be a completely stable demand level, even through production fluctuates from renewables.

 

[sptrawler]

Jets can run on hydrogen, but can it fly?

I probably should look into that. Heard the US currently has this system on its subs that separate the H from the o2 in the water as it passes. From memory they only uses the o2 for fresh air.

Pretty incredible the tech that's out there but not yet mass-marketed.

The next step in air travel, is Sydney to London in 4Hrs, the technology being developed is scram jets.
These run on super cooled hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16682-air-breathing-planes-the-spaceships-of-the-future/

The technology isn't new and is still in development, but I think has more potential than an airplane full of AA batteries.
Just my opinion.

Hydrogen at this point of our evolution, is the best most versatile and cleanest fuel available, it is the only one that can replace oil based fuel in most instances.
The only thing is the cost to produce it, but that cost will come down as more plants are installed, to make use of renewables.

 

[Value Collector]

There is no problem with charging time.

As I pointed out charge time isn't a problem with electric cars either.

There is no problem with depleted battery waste.

Batteries can be recycled,

Hydrogen can be used to power turbines,

so if you use electricity to create the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen in a turbine to create electric, do you have any idea what percentage of the original electricity you would lose? probably at least 90%.

you can even burn it on your kitchen cooktop. You can't do any of those things with batteries.

what do you mean, a Tesla power wall will power your kitchen cook top, and your lights, your toaster, your tv, vacuum, iPhone, computer etc etc pretty much everything in your house, and you can charge it with solar panels on your roof, no need for a truck to deliver a load of flammable gas to you.

 

[sptrawler]

It wouldn't be required if they had a bank of 9,000,000 cars and other vehicles across the nation ready to be charged either, not to mention other batteries in businesses and utility scale ones ready to take any cheap off-peak loads that come their way.

Cars are parked for more hours each day than they are driven, especially at night.

A national fleet of parked cars and other large scale batteries awaiting charge, could be used to completely level out the off-peak demand.

during the Peak times, Cars would stop charging and home and businesses with batteries could use their batteries, then as demand slows the electric companies starting charging cars and batteries all night.

the end result could be a completely stable demand level, even through production fluctuates from renewables.

Like I've said time will tell, but it is certainly an interesting period of time, for all of us to live through.
Being an electrician I find it interesting, just for interests sake, both technologies are better than ICE power by oil based fuel.

 

[Value Collector]

Hydrogen at this point of our evolution, is the best most versatile and cleanest fuel available, it is the only one that can replace oil based fuel in most instances.
The only thing is the cost to produce it, but that cost will come down as more plants are installed, to make use of renewables.

I am only talking about Cars and trucks etc, these will operate more efficiently with batteries than with hydrogen, not to mention they are on the market now, if hydrogen was the answer, there are plenty of big balance sheets that would be making it happen, So far nothing is happening (in the vehicle space)

 

[sptrawler]

I am only talking about Cars and trucks etc, these will operate more efficiently with batteries than with hydrogen, not to mention they are on the market now, if hydrogen was the answer, there are plenty of big balance sheets that would be making it happen, So far nothing is happening (in the vehicle space)

O.K if every car and every truck and every house is going to have lithium batteries, how long will the lithium last, it is a fairly scarce material, when compared to most.
Recycling is never 100% and recycling lithium costs 5 times more than producing it by the the brine based process,.
So how is that going to affect costs, going forward?
Also lithium isn't the dearest material in a battery, so consider that when comparing cost of production, as demand increases and materials deplete.
I would say, it is only a matter of time before producing hydrogen, will be cheaper.

The reason hydrogen isn't being produced large scale at the moment, is because fossil fuel is readily available and already in use, as it it phased out a long term solution will force hydrogen production.IMO

 

[luutzu]

The next step in air travel, is Sydney to London in 4Hrs, the technology being developed is scram jets.
These run on super cooled hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16682-air-breathing-planes-the-spaceships-of-the-future/

The technology isn't new and is still in development, but I think has more potential than an airplane full of AA batteries.
Just my opinion.

Hydrogen at this point of our evolution, is the best most versatile and cleanest fuel available, it is the only one that can replace oil based fuel in most instances.
The only thing is the cost to produce it, but that cost will come down as more plants are installed, to make use of renewables.

Does scamjets make those sonic booms?

Read that Concord was in use while Boeing's version was abandoned because Boeing designed theirs to go across the US continent while Concord goes over the ocean.

Overland break windows and a few ear drums

It's going to be more affordable to build high-speed bullet trains in the near future. So possible that airline services over major cities might not be necessary soon enough.

Quite a few incredible tech advances over the past few decades. I still remember having a cassette Walkman not too long ago.

 

[luutzu]

Maybe, but those increases would also be increasing the effect of regular roof top solar, Meaning you would be even better off having the solar panel on the roof exposed to the sun.

I mean if your old style panel is going to produce 500 Watts on car and 1500 Watts on the roof, then the new style might make 1000 watts on the car and 3000 watts on the roof.

The increasing efficiency has increased the benefit of roof top, at first having it on the car meant you lost 1000 watts due to practical issues, but now you would be losing 2000 watts.

You're making too much sense. And also sells your battery pack idea.

Would be cool to follow SirR's idea of a spare battery pack for the car charging at home though.

 

[Value Collector]

O.K if every car and every truck and every house is going to have lithium batteries, how long will the lithium last, it is a fairly scarce material, when compared to most.
Recycling is never 100% and recycling lithium costs 5 times more than producing it by the the brine based process,.
So how is that going to affect costs, going forward?

Firstly I never said all batteries forever will be lithium ion, there is plenty of different types of existing and emerging battery types and different chemistries.

Secondly, as the market demands more lithium more capital will be deployed to find and produce lithium, and to recycle more.

Tesla's battery factory actually plans to use old lithium batteries as part of its feed stock.

not to mention lithium is not the major cost of the battery nor is it the main material, you can double the cost of lithium and not raise the price of the battery.

The reason hydrogen isn't being produced large scale at the moment, is because fossil fuel is readily available and already in use, as it it phased out a long term solution will force hydrogen production.IMO

So hydrogen relies on fossil fuels becoming more expensive before it makes sense, while electric vehicles already beat Oil on running costs even at all time low oil prices.

thats a pretty important fact right there.

Not to mention that battery tech is improving rapidly, in the not to distant future batteries may have almost unlimited battery cycles, I mean the battery will already out live the car, but it may out live the owner in fixed locations such as homes eventually.

 

[sptrawler]

Read that Concord was in use while Boeing's version was abandoned because Boeing designed theirs to go across the US continent while Concord goes over the ocean.

Interesting you mention the Concord, it used to fly at supersonic speed, the biggest design difficulty was keeping the turbine inlet air speed down.
That is why they had the weird box shaped inlets, as opposed to round inlets on normal airliners, it was to slow the air inlet speed down.
Air inlet speed is the main limiting factor of the existing turbo fan design, that is why there is a huge amount of development going on with the scram jet, no turbine blades.

 

[sptrawler]

So hydrogen relies on fossil fuels becoming more expensive before it makes sense, while electric vehicles already beat Oil on running costs even at all time low oil prices.

thats a pretty important fact right there.

Not to mention that battery tech is improving rapidly, in the not to distant future batteries may have almost unlimited battery cycles, I mean the battery will already out live the car, but it may out live the owner in fixed locations such as homes eventually.

Let's not forget, batteries are using a very finite material source, which will fast become an issue.
Battery tech will advance, and no doubt merge into fuel cell technology, it is just when? Like I said time will tell.
But I wouldn't be supprised, if in the next 10 - 15 years, all wind farms have hydrogen plants attached.

https://www.hygen.com/top-3-advantages-using-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/

https://twitter.com/hashtag/hydrogen?src=hash

http://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/the-energy-future/future-transport/hydrogen.html

https://af.reuters.com/article/africaTech/idAFL8N1O43BQ

You like posts, so there is a few that back hydrogen.