Electric cars?

[Chronos-Plutus]

Whales became more scarce, production peaked and prices went up in real terms. Then along came crude oil as the solution.

Today we see a similar pattern in that whilst we're not actually running out of oil, it most certainly is becoming more costly to obtain. We've had an oil price "crash" this year but the harsh reality is that the price today is still high by historic standards and that says all you need to know.

We've gone from low tech wells on land which gushed vast amounts of oil under their own pressure to having to use hydraulic fracturing to extract dramatically smaller amounts of oil per well at higher cost. That there is the situation. We're not running out of oil but the most easily obtained oil is either gone or not available to the market due to politics etc and the cost of supply is increasing over time in real terms.

Hence we've seen oil mostly phased out for power generation, boiler fuel and so on. It's not zero but it has been in decline since the 1970's and in many countries is now at a very low level.

In the Australian context the NT and WA are the only states (ignoring the technicality that the NT isn't actually a state since that's irrelevant in the context) which are significantly reliant on oil for power generation. In the NT it's about 28%, in WA it's 6%, in every other state it's trivial.

Much the same in most countries. Go back to 1973 and oil was just over 22% of global electricity production, second only to coal, but there's very few places where it's the major source today.

Most of those involved in all this take a pragmatic view not an ideological one. Economics drives decisions and as everyone knows, transitions take years and usually involve equipment being run to the end of its technical life and it's at the time of replacement that a new technology is applied.

That's the likely scenario with cars. A point comes where new cars are electric or hydrogen, and it's only the older vehicles using petrol or diesel the use of which then gradually declines and ultimately goes to zero.

And in a decade or two, we may have electromagnetic propulsion vehicles. So lets just calm down on all the infrastructure spending with small scale recharge stations in residential streets and massive powerplant building.

There is still plenty of crude oil to last us for centuries.

 

[moXJO]

$79,000 you can get it for $70,000 but I took the self driving and paint upgrades.

it’s a Tesla Model 3.

That's not bad at all.
Might wait on the new battery.

 

[Smurf1976]

A hundred cars down a street in a small coastal town. All charging at the same time. Any problems or good to go?

That's a very "it depends" sort of situation.

All charging at 6pm on a hot or cold day = problem most certainly. Do it in too many towns and worst case we'll end up with very widespread blackouts.

All parked overnight and a smart approach is taken to have them charged by the morning, so that is charging steadily through the night rather than going flat out for a couple of hours and then nothing = very doable.

It's all a bit like road traffic itself or data networks. You could move a million cars though the Melbourne CBD no worries just so long as you're not trying to do it at time that's already busy and don't try and move them all at once. Do it steadily between 7pm and 6am though and it really won't matter.

Data's much the same. Someone could send a huge amount of data over the Telstra, Optus or any other network and so long as they're not doing it either all at once or during the existing peak periods then it won't be a problem. Send the huge volume steadily over the course of the off-peak hours and no issues.

As annoying as discussions like this seem, it does benefit others with identifying areas to investigat

We're on the same page.

I never get frustrated with questions, and there's no such thing as a silly question, but it can be frustrating when people don't accept the answers and won't seek alternative credible sources should they doubt my or anyone else's explanation of things which are proven as such.

For reference and noting the question has been raised, running diesel fuel in a modern power station built for diesel and intended for intermediate load operation will yield about 4.9 kWh per litre of fuel. That's actual specification data for a recently built facility in Australia.

That can be raised to about 6.1 kWh / litre in a plant built for base load with the downsides of higher construction cost and far less flexibility in operation. In practice very few such facilities have been built using diesel for that reason - it's not normally a preferred fuel for base load due to cost.

A cheap and nasty but modern plant built at minimal cost will still get about 3.5 kWh / litre out of the same fuel. That's what would be built today as backup or peak load plant.

The worst power station in Australia, in terms of efficiency, doesn't normally run diesel but if it did then it would get about 2.1 kWh / litre. That's ancient technology and it's rarely run in practice - it does operate as backup plant on occasion when needed, generally for no more than a few hours at a time, but most weeks it doesn't even get started indeed some months it doesn't get a run. It still has a use as backup, since it's already built and a sunk cost, and with that level of use the fuel consumption isn't a real drama but nothing that inefficient would be built new today.

So if an EV needs 20 kWh to travel 100 km then if all that power came from diesel, and it came from a modern medium efficiency plant built for intermediate load following, then it works out to a bit over 4 litres / 100 km which beats most ICE vehicles.

In practice of course, the overwhelming majority of electricity doesn't come from diesel or other oil-based fuels and that's where the benefits arise.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

That's a very "it depends" sort of situation.

All charging at 6pm on a hot or cold day = problem most certainly. Do it in too many towns and worst case we'll end up with very widespread blackouts.

All parked overnight and a smart approach is taken to have them charged by the morning, so that is charging steadily through the night rather than going flat out for a couple of hours and then nothing = very doable.

It's all a bit like road traffic itself or data networks. You could move a million cars though the Melbourne CBD no worries just so long as you're not trying to do it at time that's already busy and don't try and move them all at once. Do it steadily between 7pm and 6am though and it really won't matter.

Data's much the same. Someone could send a huge amount of data over the Telstra, Optus or any other network and so long as they're not doing it either all at once or during the existing peak periods then it won't be a problem. Send the huge volume steadily over the course of the off-peak hours and no issues.



We're on the same page.

I never get frustrated with questions, and there's no such thing as a silly question, but it can be frustrating when people don't accept the answers and won't seek alternative credible sources should they doubt my or anyone else's explanation of things which are proven as such.

For reference and noting the question has been raised, running diesel fuel in a modern power station built for diesel and intended for intermediate load operation will yield about 4.9 kWh per litre of fuel. That's actual specification data for a recently built facility in Australia.

That can be raised to about 6.1 kWh / litre in a plant built for base load with the downsides of higher construction cost and far less flexibility in operation. In practice very few such facilities have been built using diesel for that reason - it's not normally a preferred fuel for base load due to cost.

A cheap and nasty but modern plant built at minimal cost will still get about 3.5 kWh / litre out of the same fuel. That's what would be built today as backup or peak load plant.

The worst power station in Australia, in terms of efficiency, doesn't normally run diesel but if it did then it would get about 2.1 kWh / litre. That's ancient technology and it's rarely run in practice - it does operate as backup plant on occasion when needed, generally for no more than a few hours at a time, but most weeks it doesn't even get started indeed some months it doesn't get a run. It still has a use as backup, since it's already built and a sunk cost, and with that level of use the fuel consumption isn't a real drama but nothing that inefficient would be built new today.

So if an EV needs 20 kWh to travel 100 km then if all that power came from diesel, and it came from a modern medium efficiency plant built for intermediate load following, then it works out to a bit over 4 litres / 100 km which beats most ICE vehicles.

In practice of course, the overwhelming majority of electricity doesn't come from diesel or other oil-based fuels and that's where the benefits arise.

Why not just relay all our major roads with piezoelectric materials, that feed back all the electricity into the grid?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e5e/f90fb484010b209e847d490de1b06f9c64a2.pdf

 

[Value Collector]

Why not just relay all our major roads with piezoelectric materials, that feed back all the electricity into the grid?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e5e/f90fb484010b209e847d490de1b06f9c64a2.pdf

because perpetual motion machines don’t work.

Energy from the compressing of the road surface would be at the expense of excess drag being applied to to the vehicle slowing the vehicle down.

just like driving over sand takes more energy than driving over concrete.

————
However again I don’t expect you to understand that, you seem to want to suggest any crazy scheme rather than admit one tried and tested existing technologies might be the solution.

hahaha, I really have to stop clicking “show ignored content” but your posts are just getting laughable.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

That's a very "it depends" sort of situation.

All charging at 6pm on a hot or cold day = problem most certainly. Do it in too many towns and worst case we'll end up with very widespread blackouts.

All parked overnight and a smart approach is taken to have them charged by the morning, so that is charging steadily through the night rather than going flat out for a couple of hours and then nothing = very doable.

It's all a bit like road traffic itself or data networks. You could move a million cars though the Melbourne CBD no worries just so long as you're not trying to do it at time that's already busy and don't try and move them all at once. Do it steadily between 7pm and 6am though and it really won't matter.

Data's much the same. Someone could send a huge amount of data over the Telstra, Optus or any other network and so long as they're not doing it either all at once or during the existing peak periods then it won't be a problem. Send the huge volume steadily over the course of the off-peak hours and no issues.



We're on the same page.

I never get frustrated with questions, and there's no such thing as a silly question, but it can be frustrating when people don't accept the answers and won't seek alternative credible sources should they doubt my or anyone else's explanation of things which are proven as such.

For reference and noting the question has been raised, running diesel fuel in a modern power station built for diesel and intended for intermediate load operation will yield about 4.9 kWh per litre of fuel. That's actual specification data for a recently built facility in Australia.

That can be raised to about 6.1 kWh / litre in a plant built for base load with the downsides of higher construction cost and far less flexibility in operation. In practice very few such facilities have been built using diesel for that reason - it's not normally a preferred fuel for base load due to cost.

A cheap and nasty but modern plant built at minimal cost will still get about 3.5 kWh / litre out of the same fuel. That's what would be built today as backup or peak load plant.

The worst power station in Australia, in terms of efficiency, doesn't normally run diesel but if it did then it would get about 2.1 kWh / litre. That's ancient technology and it's rarely run in practice - it does operate as backup plant on occasion when needed, generally for no more than a few hours at a time, but most weeks it doesn't even get started indeed some months it doesn't get a run. It still has a use as backup, since it's already built and a sunk cost, and with that level of use the fuel consumption isn't a real drama but nothing that inefficient would be built new today.

So if an EV needs 20 kWh to travel 100 km then if all that power came from diesel, and it came from a modern medium efficiency plant built for intermediate load following, then it works out to a bit over 4 litres / 100 km which beats most ICE vehicles.

In practice of course, the overwhelming majority of electricity doesn't come from diesel or other oil-based fuels and that's where the benefits arise.

You are trying to alter the behavior of people, human conditioning. Telling people when to and when not charge their cars.

The vast majority of electricity in Australia comes from coal and gas. So our Australian fossil fuel companies embrace electric vehicles, because they know that you aren't going to be able to do it without them. More fossil fuel powerplants will be built.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

because perpetual motion machines don’t work.

Energy from the compressing of the road surface would be at the expense of excess drag being applied to to the vehicle slowing the vehicle down.

just like driving over sand takes more energy than driving over concrete.

————
However again I don’t expect you to understand that, you seem to want to suggest any crazy scheme rather than admit one tried and tested existing technologies might be the solution.

hahaha, I really have to stop clicking “show ignored content” but your posts are just getting laughable.

It isn't perpetual motion, it is electomagnetic. Same principle in maglev trains.

---------------

The materials are under the asphalt, What are you talking about. Do you even know what piezoelectric means? I never said that I agreed with it, I said what about it. Only a few pilot projects have been done to date.
-----------------
On the topic of compression; fluid is incompressible, that is why we have hydraulics.
---------------------
You are an excellent troll, good job over the last few days. You need a promotion.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

because perpetual motion machines don’t work.

Energy from the compressing of the road surface would be at the expense of excess drag being applied to to the vehicle slowing the vehicle down.

just like driving over sand takes more energy than driving over concrete.

————
However again I don’t expect you to understand that, you seem to want to suggest any crazy scheme rather than admit one tried and tested existing technologies might be the solution.

hahaha, I really have to stop clicking “show ignored content” but your posts are just getting laughable.

What about putting flag poles on every street corner that generate electricity?


I say we just go nuclear.

Then we don't have to worry about your silly little electric cars and batteries, white-anting our grid, plunging us into meltdowns every week.

 

[Smurf1976]

You are trying to alter the behavior of people, human conditioning. Telling people when to and when not charge their cars.

Nothing new about that.

The electricity industry has tried to do it since the 1890's and has been reasonably successful since the 1930's.

Airlines, suburban public transport, removalists, freight companies, cinemas, nightclubs, tourist resorts, builders and many others have all done it for a very long time and the basic concept is at the very heart of all markets.

So do petrol retailers in most of Australia's cities via what's known as the price cycle.

The basic concept of trying to make better use of infrastructure or manage stock levels or workload by altering price is well established and nothing new.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

Nothing new about that.

The electricity industry has tried to do it since the 1890's and has been reasonably successful since the 1930's.

Airlines, suburban public transport, removalists, freight companies, cinemas, nightclubs, tourist resorts, builders and many others have all done it for a very long time and the basic concept is at the very heart of all markets.

So do petrol retailers in most of Australia's cities via what's known as the price cycle.

The basic concept of trying to make better use of infrastructure or manage stock levels or workload by altering price is well established and nothing new.

No; people aren't told when to turn on their lights at home, or told when to turn on their dishwasher, told when to turn on their TV, or told when to charge their mobile phones.

Charging a vehicle is a completely different story here.

 

[SirRumpole]

No; people aren't told when to turn on their lights at home, or told when to turn on their dishwasher, told when to turn on their TV, or told when to charge their mobile phones.

Charging a vehicle is a completely different story here.

Electric hot water heating times are "regulated" in some States I believe and that is a major load. Heaters are turned on by sending a signal down the power lines when the demand is low enough for heating to be efficient.

 

[Smurf1976]

No; people aren't told when to turn on their lights at home, or told when to turn their dishwasher, or told when to charge their mobile phones.

They are however increasingly given a price incentive to run the dishwasher and anything else that is not time critical at preferred times. That is, outside the peaks.

SA is the last state to do it and it's being done now. For the other states, they've all gone at least part way down the track of time of use pricing and it's no secret that ultimately the aim is to have everyone on it in due course.

Then there's hot water, water pumping etc which has been managed that way for many decades to the point that the majority of such load is under control and has been so for years.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

They are however increasingly given a price incentive to run the dishwasher and anything else that is not time critical at preferred times. That is, outside the peaks.

SA is the last state to do it and it's being done now. For the other states, they've all gone at least part way down the track of time of use pricing and it's no secret that ultimately the aim is to have everyone on it in due course.

Then there's hot water, water pumping etc which has been managed that way for many decades to the point that the majority of such load is under control and has been so for years.

You can do what you like in SA; I don't care.

Just don't ask for Federal funds or help.

We better start moving our military/defence industry out of SA if you're in control.

Then you can basket case the state.

 

[Smurf1976]

Electric hot water heating times are "regulated" in some States I believe and that is a major load. Heaters are turned on by sending a signal down the power lines when the demand is low enough for heating to be efficient.

Queensland and NSW use ripple control. That is, there's a signal sent over the power lines to switch the load. It's nothing new - it's literally 1950's technology.

Victoria it's either timers or remote control via the smart meter communications. Varies.

SA it's timers. There's a problem in that most of them are set to operate at a time which is no longer ideal, and changing them all is quite a task, but some efforts are underway there. Those installed in the past 2.5 years are remotely programmable via 4G communications but the rest need a site visit hence the issue.

Tasmania it's largely by limitation of input power, that is a regulatory approach, with some limited use of timers. That approach is somewhat unique to Tasmania and dates back a very long time, to the 1890's, and since it works well enough has become entrenched. A time based approach would be superior though and that's where the push is.

Some other approaches exist internationally. For example the UK switches electrical loads at the household level via a signal superimposed over BBC Radio 4. It's inaudible to human ears so no issue.

There's definitely opportunity in this space for innovation and financial gain for those who do it. Hence car makers looking at various approaches, hence why at least one electricity retailer is literally giving away some power for EV charging when it makes sense for them to do so, etc.

If we can build the internet and so on then we can charge some batteries yes, indeed the existence of the internet opens up rather a lot of possibilities.

 

[Smurf1976]

You can do what you like in SA; I don't care.

Just don't ask for Federal funds or help.

If you think SA doing something which every other state has already done is going to somehow wreck the SA economy then that's a rather interesting line of thinking.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

If you think SA doing something which every other state has already done is going to somehow wreck the SA economy then that's a rather interesting line of thinking.

Is it?

If we pulled our defence industry out of SA, you wouldn't have much. Perhaps it might be better to split the defence industry with WA, NSW and TAS and leave SA to do what they like.

 

[SirRumpole]

Some other approaches exist internationally. For example the UK switches electrical loads at the household level via a signal superimposed over BBC Radio 4. It's inaudible to human ears so no issue.

Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?

Perhaps there is a potential capability to switch on every radio, mobile phone, and television device, which is connected to the internet, in everyone's home, to broadcast BBC 4; just from the push of a few buttons, from a central location.

 

[SirRumpole]

Perhaps there is a potential capability to switch on every radio and television device, which is connected to the internet, in everyone's home; just from the push of a few buttons, from a central location.

Scary thought. Switching on cameras, microphones etc. Has great possibilities for Orwellians.

 

[Smurf1976]

Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?

There's a device, a receiver, at the switchboard which is listening 24 hours a day.

Once it hears the signal, it switches power on / off as per what the signal's telling it to do. There's no audio sound being emitted by the receiver, it's not playing the radio as such, it's just sitting there silently listening for the signal to be broadcast which tells it to turn on / off.

Reception doesn't need to be perfect for it to work. It's only listening for an "on" or an "off" so it can't really go too far wrong. I don't know the detail of operation but they'd be sending out the signal more than once just to be sure - tell it to turn on, then tell it again a few minutes later just to make sure. etc.

Reason for doing it that way is that the BBC already has a very wide radio broadcast coverage so it was easy to just add the control signal to that existing radio transmission signal rather than setting up something separate.

As clarity for those not aware - Radio 4 is a radio station, the separate BBC stations are simply numbered 1, 2, 3 etc. Much the same as the ABC in Australia broadcasts various different stations under different names but the BBC chose to number theirs instead of naming them as such.

Most people living in the UK would presumably be completely unaware that it's done that way. Apart from those with a technical interest or employed in relevant work, there's no reason why anyone needs to know unless they're curious as to how it works etc.

The main thing being switched in practice is electric water heaters and less commonly storage space heaters. Same way that off-peak electricity is used in Australia.