ELECTIONS - Labor or Liberal

[Julia]

And btw, I personally have no probs with abs taking nuclear waste and getting paid for it - I hope they get paid handsomely that's all - because the rest of us NIMBY's would never let nuclear power get off the ground otherwise - plenty of hot air - too much radio, and not enough activity etc

And how does this square with the oft quoted mantra of how aborigines are so in touch with the land, would never do anything to despoil it etc etc??

 

[Buster]

We now have more single mothers than ever before.

How I dislike the 'than ever before' cry.. It's gained my attention when I was in the US just after 911.. every second television ad spruiked 'now, more than ever before..' as if to ensure that you 'lived for the moment' because you just never know if you'll be here tomorrow to enjoy that Krispy Kreme doughnut or be able to drive down the 101 in the new convertible 'vette.. Play the fear card at every opportunity, certainly works in the marketing and politics arena.. However, perhaps I am the ultimate cynic..

Also, more single mothers now 'than ever before'??? That may just have something to do with the fact that women can walk away for no reason and claim a [in many cases] substantial income for doing nothing other than dragging the kids with them.. I could elaborate, however time and space do not permit..

People are having to be paid to be parents, rather than traditionally, because of long term financial security. This will have dire consequences in another 20 years time, when kids have grown up in a loveless family, and realise they were only brought into this world for money..

Sad but true.. Although, I seem to remember a comment from someone earlier (may have been you) about how tough it is for the younger generation these days. I'm sure I'd be better off if a 4-5K bonus per head was payable when I was breeding .. .. let's not even get into the 1st home buyers etc..

More banks own people's property than ever before..

Hmmm... put in context, ie per capita of generations I'd tip that not a lot has changed in the last 1000 years..

The gap between rich and poor has grown excessively..

Again..

The removal of incentive for education..

Wow.. more information required. You mean that these days taxpayers will largely fund or loan you money to pay for University (at very good rates) so that when you graduate as a doctor you can slug me exorbitant rates for the privilege of training you?? Lucky me..

The victimisation, alienation and removal of hope for the youth of Australia..

Awesome dude.. never let the truth stand in the way of a good post.. Just a guess, but I'd tip you are one of the 'Me' generation.. LOL

Deep down inside, you know you needed to clarify that statement, but you couldn't so you didn't.. Genuinely, I enjoy reading your posts and those of all here at ASF with the diverse opinions and experiences, but you gotta be able to back up statements like your last, 'cause you just know you're going to get called in.. the question is can you?

For the record, I'm hoping the Libs get another run.. I don't agree with some of the calls made over the last decade or so, but I do remember the mess that Hawke and Keating made.. a couple of quotes spring to mind, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' and I don't believe it's 'really' broken, and 'Better the Devil you know'...

Cheers,

Buster

 

[chops_a_must]

How I dislike the 'than ever before' cry.. It's gained my attention when I was in the US just after 911.. every second television ad spruiked 'now, more than ever before..' as if to ensure that you 'lived for the moment' because you just never know if you'll be here tomorrow to enjoy that Krispy Kreme doughnut or be able to drive down the 101 in the new convertible 'vette.. Play the fear card at every opportunity, certainly works in the marketing and politics arena.. However, perhaps I am the ultimate cynic..

Also, more single mothers now 'than ever before'??? That may just have something to do with the fact that women can walk away for no reason and claim a [in many cases] substantial income for doing nothing other than dragging the kids with them.. I could elaborate, however time and space do not permit..

Nope. There are now more single teenage mothers than ever before in Australia. At least in the first few years after the baby bonus was intoduced, this was the case.

Sad but true.. Although, I seem to remember a comment from someone earlier (may have been you) about how tough it is for the younger generation these days. I'm sure I'd be better off if a 4-5K bonus per head was payable when I was breeding .. .. let's not even get into the 1st home buyers etc..

I'm not in the age bracket which benefits from this payment. Neither are the people I am in general speaking for. I wouldn't count people over 30 as youth.

Hmmm... put in context, ie per capita of generations I'd tip that not a lot has changed in the last 1000 years..

It was a one line cynical response to a one line argument. Don't quote me out of context.

Again..

Who would you like me to reference, Stiglitz on a broader scale or ACOSS for more relevance?

Wow.. more information required. You mean that these days taxpayers will largely fund or loan you money to pay for University (at very good rates) so that when you graduate as a doctor you can slug me exorbitant rates for the privilege of training you?? Lucky me..

You mean you can study for 6 years and still be paid less than a truckie?

You mean my fees haven't gone up 750% in 4 years?

You mean a professor doesn't get paid less than a lollipop man? Lol! (The plight in payment of essential services has been stated elsewhere today)

Awesome dude.. never let the truth stand in the way of a good post.. Just a guess, but I'd tip you are one of the 'Me' generation.. LOL

Deep down inside, you know you needed to clarify that statement, but you couldn't so you didn't.. Genuinely, I enjoy reading your posts and those of all here at ASF with the diverse opinions and experiences, but you gotta be able to back up statements like your last, 'cause you just know you're going to get called in.. the question is can you?

Couldn't?

You mean young people aren't forbidden from protesting these days?

You mean young people don't get laws passed specifically against them? i.e. hoon laws. Whilst race tracks and speedways are allowed to be knocked down?

You mean students aren't banned from sitting in on Senate sittings at Universities?

Have a look before you shoot your mouth off.

 

[2020hindsight]

And how does this square with the oft quoted mantra of how aborigines are so in touch with the land, would never do anything to despoil it etc etc??

Obviously there are a heap of things to check out - radioactivity mustn't get out in any way, including leaching into underground water table - but apparently the geology at the station involved is pretty ideal - they've been assured by us that there's "nothing to worry about".

not that they'll get the contract necessarily - apparently the nuclear disposal boys are looking around for some other options, not necessarily for the better geology, but also for a dutch auction over what it's worth to the landowners.

I won't say more at this stage.

yes I will, lol .
Heers a link from July 2006 :- http://www.abc.net.au/alicesprings/stories/s1692156.htm

It's a while since we've heard anything about the proposed nuclear waste facility. Naturally the question arises: what's happening behind the scenes?

How many possible sites is the Federal Government actually looking at? At first there were three. Two of them not far from Alice Springs and suddenly there was a fourth possibility, on Muckaty Station, north of Tennant Creek.

The Northern Land Council (NLC) has been negotiating with the Federal Government and with the traditional owners, the Warlmanpa people, but have they been consulting with all the key stakeholders?

Marlene Bennett is one Warlmanpa woman who thinks there hasn't been enough consultation. She says she and many others have been left out of the loop when it comes to discussions about the proposed facility. "The people themselves out on the community, they reckon it's been too rushed. The way the meetings are discussed, they can't hear what's happening, they have no opportunity to ask questions, it's only sort of a select group of people that are sitting up close," she said.

Here's a link from dec 2006 (also old hat) - read it yourself lol. (they were concerned, but obviously compensation and safety fears / precautions have since been negotiated / addressed.
http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/nt/content/2006/s1802547.htm

Finally this one :- (see jpeg attached) http://abc.net.au/news/australia/nt/alice/200705/s1933023.htm

 

[--B--]

Who do i want to win: Liberal

Who do i think will win: Labor (although thankfully, the Libs are slowly closing the gap)

 

[sam76]

I heard on the radio this morning that Rudd has lost six points to the coalition in QLD (Rudds home state) accoring to the latest Galaxy poll.

 

[--B--]

I think the public is beginning to wake up to Rudd's guise of 'all things to all people'

The "its time for a chaaaange!!" brigade will still hang in there though irrespective of the credentials of each party and their policies.

 

[arminius]

zt3000, you think my response was irrational eh. why?

putting aside a resources driven economy for a moment, how has this government advanced our country?

comment please on defence, foreign policy, education, human rights, indiginous affairs, environment, freedom of speech, honesty, etc.

i think it with my head, believe it in my heart, and feel it in my cods.

enjoy.

 

[--B--]

zt3000, you think my response was irrational eh. why?

putting aside a resources driven economy for a moment,

ahh, the familiar cry of the howard-hater.

how has this government advanced our country? comment please on defence, foreign policy, education, human rights, indiginous affairs, environment, freedom of speech, honesty, etc.

perhaps you could start by explaining where you think the government when wrong on the above?

 

[Kimosabi]

zt3000, you think my response was irrational eh. why?

putting aside a resources driven economy for a moment, how has this government advanced our country?

comment please on defence, foreign policy, education, human rights, indiginous affairs, environment, freedom of speech, honesty, etc.

i think it with my head, believe it in my heart, and feel it in my cods.

enjoy.

I agree with the above, Howard has been systematically dismantling or civil rights, our workers rights and selling us out to the central bankers and neo-cons by supporting an unconstitutional and illegal war in Iraq. Howard is well on the way to progressing Australia to become a Police State for the One World Government and we are all blindly sitting in our houses of contentedness, thinking we are rich because we have the illusion that we are rich because we have huge mortgages for over-priced property.

When the plugged gets pulled, and it will get pulled, the poor and middle classes of Australia that are up to their necks in debt are going to get wiped out.

Unfortunately, I don't think Rudd is going to be much better than Howard and will probably continue the sell-out, just in a different fashion.

Now, the question I am now asking, is there anything resembling an honest politician in Australia that I can vote for?

 

[moXJO]

Chops do you work at a university?

 

[chops_a_must]

Nup.

 

[arminius]

no, you tell me...anyone.
aside from the economy, which is a thread on its own, how has howards government advanced australia, fair or otherwise. ill give you some topics to help get started.
foreign relations
defence
education
indiginous affairs
freedom of speech
honesty of government
human rights

take your time...think it through. will not accept mere propaganda. try and base answers on fact please.


ps, fyi b. yes i do hate howard, but i detest brendan nelson and tony abbott, while alexander downer is pathetic, not forgetting julie bishop who is incompetent. costello is a good treasurer, and hockey ok. coonan is out of her depth and turnbull is just shallow.

 

[arminius]

waiting...waiting...waiting...
oh and we may as well throw in the environment.

 

[--B--]

waiting...waiting...waiting...
oh and we may as well throw in the environment.

just to get you started:

Defence:

$6.1 billion over 10 years to enhance recruitment and retention of military personnel and logistics

$702 million for national security initiatives to further safeguard against terrorism, including better e‑security.

Education:

A comprehensive investment in Australia's education sector, covering universities, VET and schools.

$5 billion will be invested in a new Higher Education Endowment Fund to provide a perpetual source of funding for university capital works and research facilities. The Government will make further contributions from future surpluses.

$768 million for universities to simplify and boost funding and to increase funding and enrolment flexibility.

$222 million for increased income support for tertiary students and an extra 3,500 Commonwealth scholarships.

More assistance to apprentices and the VET sector.

$549 million for 1st & 2nd year apprentices in skill shortage trades for a $500 education voucher to offset fees and, if under 30, a $1,000 tax‑free wage top‑up.

$843 million extra to improve the quality of teachers and the education of all Australian school children. $700 tutorial vouchers to help students meet literacy and numeracy standards.

Environment: (seeing as you asked nicely)

$741 million for practical climate change initiatives, including the doubling to $8,000 of rebates for the installation of solar panels by households

$10 billion over 10 years to conserve and sustain Australia's water supply

$2 billion to extend the Natural Heritage Trust.

 

[cornnfedd]

no, you tell me...anyone.
aside from the economy, which is a thread on its own, how has howards government advanced australia, fair or otherwise. ill give you some topics to help get started.
foreign relations
defence
education
indiginous affairs
freedom of speech
honesty of government
human rights

take your time...think it through. will not accept mere propaganda. try and base answers on fact please.


ps, fyi b. yes i do hate howard, but i detest brendan nelson and tony abbott, while alexander downer is pathetic, not forgetting julie bishop who is incompetent. costello is a good treasurer, and hockey ok. coonan is out of her depth and turnbull is just shallow.

how to you think Rudd will improve these areas over Howard AND what do you think Howard should have done that he didnt in these areas?

 

[arminius]

ok, and before you ask, im up at 4am cause our 2 week old son has been screaming for an hour and i cant get back to sleep.
i apologise in advance cause this might be long. if you want to get something done today stop reading right now. im serious.

i am not a member of the labor party, or a union, or a pollie, or staffer. im just a 39 yo bloke in newcastle nsw with a young family. im not rich, or poor, and have no axe to grind.

i wish to step back a bit and say to some people that i sort of understand why you might like this government. they've been in power for a decade and the economy has been growing for years. you might have a few cars in the garage, watch telly on a plasma, have a nice home etc and be pretty content with where your at. thats good. youve worked hard, and live in a country that gave you opportunity, an education, no wars, and a safe society. a good mate of mine voted libs last time. hes a builder, getting rich, but thinks its thanks to john. he has never worked while someone other than john is the pm.
you may be mentally scarred by 18% rates in '89.
however, im sure a global ressession had something to do with it and by the time keating left they were down to 8%. rates have been on the up for half of johnnys term. anyway, they pretty much mirror what the rest of the worlds rates do. im fairly sure we are part of a global economy. as we all know, our income from mining has gone up expodentially. it is unbelieveable.

my response to b.
oz never had a problem recruiting and retaining soldiers. ive been one myself. its only when the adf is asked to go and invade other countries for no moral or legal basis that motivation becomes an issue. our best and most experienced soldiers also leave because of poor renumeration. they slog their guts out for very little, risking their lives, and get paid less than a garbage truck driver- (no disrespect). nelson in his infinate wisdom has overturned 93 years of tradition and said its ok to join if you are a druggie, asthma sufferer, overweight, or convicted crim. excellent work brendan. we are so far up the backside of bush's america its scary. at least 6 billion for some 'super hornets' that we suddenly need. six billion dollars for planes the air force has said it doesnt want, let alone need. as for 60-100 million in tanks...
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/natint/stories/s994731.htm
we have, or will waste billions that im sure could pay for... quite a few things actually.

national security issues. please. if we werent complicit in the killing of hundreds of thousands of iraqis, we wouldnt need extra safeguards. why would terrorists come down here to attack us if we were saying to bush. 'george, what youre doing is wrong'. has germany been attacked? france? switzerland? australia used to hold a moral high ground in world affairs. we punched way above our weight in both world wars. we taught the yanks how to fight in vietnam (via our experience in ng and borneo). our presence in iraq is token. a political weapon for bush. if we didnt sign kyoto because our emissions dont count for much on a global scale....
75% of americans want rid of bush. the US military want rid of bush. yet we are stuck to him like a leech. we are talking about an american mentality that will stop at nothing to further its position. its the only nation ever to use the bomb on humanity, and that was nothing more than two warning shots across the bows of russia. they allowed the japs to bomb pearl. they were reading their comms and, surprise, sent their carriers far out to sea.
see what the chief of the brit army, other brit generals, US generals, including batiste, clark, oden, zinni, eaton, say about iraq. a criminal act that will haunt us all forever. its not americans that are insane, its the bush/cheney administration. wheres johnny- sticking his head out from georges crack.

education. do you really think so much cash would have been thrown at universities if labor hadnt laid their cards on the table and received such a welcome response. a decade in power, and 3 months before a potential landslide defeat they spend up. the fund is good. no probs but...
768 million dollars in funding to simplify and boost funding??? how about giving our uni's a few billion to allow them to stop prostituting themselves to o/s students. as a consequence of this, our standards have lowered, essays are marked easy so they pass, so the institution keeps getting paid. lovely.

im sure someone has first hand knowledge of the fate of TAFEs in the last ten years.

843 million dollars to improve the quality of teachers. how exactly do you do that? heres a hundred bucks. you are now a better teacher.
actually, the merit pay scheme will draw better teachers into the cities and better schools, where the studious kids from supportive middle class families attend, leaving less gifted but no less dedicated teachers in rural, poorer areas with the less teachable, and disruptive kids. where does that leave us in 10-20 years? the once great thing about this nation is that you could live in dubbo, or rocky, and get a good education from potentially the worlds best teacher. no more.
i wont go into the effect this policy will have on teacher morale, teamwork, marking standards, or stress levels.

the environment?- you are kidding, right.
just a quick point, pressure from the opposition and john pulls not one, not two, but ten billion dollars out of his **** overnight, with the system almost beyond repair, without asking treasury, or going through proper channels, (pun not intended). if that is not reactionary i dont know what is. they wouldnt know foresight and planning if it headbutted them. yeah the drought is bad, but as far as im aware, its been around for a loooong time, and it will only get worse.
in short, money is thrown around in either catch up politics, or waste, or plugging a leak busted open by own policies. whats the bill for iraq now? 3 billion? 4? how many water tanks or solar panels would that buy? how much dual carriageway would that pay for? brizzy to cairns? melbourne to adalaide?
how many millions in subsidies for petrol cars to gas?. why not put the billions we obviously have to fritter on first class high speed rail networks. i wont go on. there are too many examples. too many issues.

i dont know what labor will do, but i do know what the liberals have done to my country. i have only touched the tip of the iceberg, for this whole issue is all-encompassing.
if you're still reading this, go and eat something, or you will die.
cheers.

 

[Julia]

Entirely valid post. Interesting what the frustration of a screaming baby can produce in the small hours.

I agree with most of what you say. But sadly I will still vote Liberal because I like the Opposition even less.

 

[--B--]

i wish to step back a bit and say to some people that i sort of understand why you might like this government. they've been in power for a decade and the economy has been growing for years. you might have a few cars in the garage, watch telly on a plasma, have a nice home etc and be pretty content with where your at. thats good. youve worked hard, and live in a country that gave you opportunity, an education, no wars, and a safe society. a good mate of mine voted libs last time. hes a builder, getting rich, but thinks its thanks to john. he has never worked while someone other than john is the pm.

yes my own economic prosperity and that of my family and friends is quite a reason to appreciate the current govt.

my response to b.
oz never had a problem recruiting and retaining soldiers. ive been one myself. its only when the adf is asked to go and invade other countries for no moral or legal basis that motivation becomes an issue. our best and most experienced soldiers also leave because of poor renumeration. they slog their guts out for very little, risking their lives, and get paid less than a garbage truck driver- (no disrespect).

leftist rubbish.

nelson in his infinate wisdom has overturned 93 years of tradition and said its ok to join if you are a druggie, asthma sufferer, overweight, or convicted crim. excellent work brendan. we are so far up the backside of bush's america its scary. at least 6 billion for some 'super hornets' that we suddenly need. six billion dollars for planes the air force has said it doesnt want, let alone need. as for 60-100 million in tanks...
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/natint/stories/s994731.htm
we have, or will waste billions that im sure could pay for... quite a few things actually.

national security issues. please. if we werent complicit in the killing of hundreds of thousands of iraqis, we wouldnt need extra safeguards. why would terrorists come down here to attack us if we were saying to bush. 'george, what youre doing is wrong'. has germany been attacked? france? switzerland? australia used to hold a moral high ground in world affairs. we punched way above our weight in both world wars. we taught the yanks how to fight in vietnam (via our experience in ng and borneo). our presence in iraq is token. a political weapon for bush. if we didnt sign kyoto because our emissions dont count for much on a global scale....

we didnt sign kyoto because Howar refused to bow to greenie pressure and sign an agreement that would severely affect our ecomony while the likes of India and China were granted omission because they are "developing nations"

75% of americans want rid of bush. the US military want rid of bush. yet we are stuck to him like a leech. we are talking about an american mentality that will stop at nothing to further its position. its the only nation ever to use the bomb on humanity, and that was nothing more than two warning shots across the bows of russia. they allowed the japs to bomb pearl. they were reading their comms and, surprise, sent their carriers far out to sea.
see what the chief of the brit army, other brit generals, US generals, including batiste, clark, oden, zinni, eaton, say about iraq. a criminal act that will haunt us all forever. its not americans that are insane, its the bush/cheney administration. wheres johnny- sticking his head out from georges crack.

like most leftists, your hatred of the US and Bush is clearly evident however i fail to see what any of this has to do with Howards govt. Yeah, the US are our Allies, would your prefer they weren't?

education. do you really think so much cash would have been thrown at universities if labor hadnt laid their cards on the table and received such a welcome response. a decade in power, and 3 months before a potential landslide defeat they spend up. the fund is good. no probs but...
768 million dollars in funding to simplify and boost funding??? how about giving our uni's a few billion to allow them to stop prostituting themselves to o/s students. as a consequence of this, our standards have lowered, essays are marked easy so they pass, so the institution keeps getting paid. lovely.

you have simply been ranting and raving and criticising whatever the govt. has done. eg: "why didnt they do that earlier", "whats that going to do"...

easy argument to make but it cuts both ways. If labor miraculously gets voted in, im sure i could think up plenty of similar arguments.

843 million dollars to improve the quality of teachers. how exactly do you do that? heres a hundred bucks. you are now a better teacher.

um, training?

the environment?- you are kidding, right.
just a quick point, pressure from the opposition and john pulls not one, not two, but ten billion dollars out of his **** overnight, with the system almost beyond repair, without asking treasury, or going through proper channels, (pun not intended). if that is not reactionary i dont know what is. they wouldnt know foresight and planning if it headbutted them. yeah the drought is bad, but as far as im aware, its been around for a loooong time, and it will only get worse.

And still the state labor governments squabble and refuse to support the initiative.

the drought is reportedly nearing its end. El Niño is making way for La Nina.

in short, money is thrown around in either catch up politics, or waste, or plugging a leak busted open by own policies. whats the bill for iraq now? 3 billion? 4? how many water tanks or solar panels would that buy? how much dual carriageway would that pay for? brizzy to cairns? melbourne to adalaide?

water tanks and solar panels?? how about a few dams and a nuclear plant? look out for the lefty greenies though..

how many millions in subsidies for petrol cars to gas?. why not put the billions we obviously have to fritter on first class high speed rail networks. i wont go on. there are too many examples. too many issues.

wtf are you on about?

i dont know what labor will do, but i do know what the liberals have done to my country. i have only touched the tip of the iceberg, for this whole issue is all-encompassing.
if you're still reading this, go and eat something, or you will die.
cheers.

please carry on...

 

[moXJO]

no, you tell me...anyone.
aside from the economy, which is a thread on its own, how has howards government advanced australia, fair or otherwise. ill give you some topics to help get started.
foreign relations
defence
education
indiginous affairs
freedom of speech
honesty of government
human rights

take your time...think it through. will not accept mere propaganda. try and base answers on fact please.


ps, fyi b. yes i do hate howard, but i detest brendan nelson and tony abbott, while alexander downer is pathetic, not forgetting julie bishop who is incompetent. costello is a good treasurer, and hockey ok. coonan is out of her depth and turnbull is just shallow.

Have you actually looked up the money being spent in these areas yourself? So much easier with google these days. A few solar panels and wind farms aren’t going to cut it we don’t need another white elephant. I prefer a government that assessed its options before jumping in to something not economically viable (not that Howard really cuts it in this area a lot of the time either).I'd like to see something more substantial from labor before I change my vote.