Donald Trump - Business and tax stories

[basilio]

Many people have always recognised Donald Trump for the person he truly is. An inveterate braggart. A con man. A business fraud. A high functioning sociopath. On Oct 2nd a trial will crystallize and confirm all these attributes and hopefully bring him to account.

Will this case change the views of the millions of people who would throw themselves under a bus or off a cliff for him ? Will there be some sort of epiphany that drops the scales off 40 million pairs of eyes ? People like Stalin, Hitler and others of similar ilk managed to keep millions of followers in their thrall way after all the merde hit the fan. Merely proving that Trump was a consummate business liar and tax cheat won't ruffle a feather in this army of wood ducks. (After all he isn't Joe Biden is he ?)

However this trial could, with any luck and justice, destroy the Trump families business empire and inflict a death of a thousand cuts. I'm laying in some chippies and beer.

The art of the fraudulent deal? Trump Organization trial set to begin​

Case could cost former president a fortune and end his control of the empire that made him the world’s most famous businessman

Lauren Aratani in New York
Sun 1 Oct 2023 18.00 AEDTLast modified on Sun 1 Oct 2023 18.54 AEDT

“People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole,” Donald Trump wrote 36 years ago in his best-selling book, The Art of the Deal. “It’s an innocent form of exaggeration, and a very effective form of promotion.” This week a New York judge called Trump’s “truthful hyperbole” fraud in a ruling that could cost the former president a fortune and end his control of the business empire that made him the world’s most famous businessman and president of the United States.

Trump is mired in litigation but perhaps no case is more personal to him than the one set to begin on Monday at a Manhattan courthouse near the city’s financial district. The case, brought by New York attorney general Letitia James, comes after a three-year investigation into Trump’s complex and sprawling businesses. James contends Trump consistently overstated the value of his assets to broker deals and obtain financing.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/27/donald-trump-michigan-rally-supporters
What had looked set to be a months-long affair will probably be much shorter after New York supreme court Justice Arthur Engoron agreed and found Trump guilty of fraud days before the case had even begun.

The ruling struck at the foundations of Trump’s image, ending his ability to run his real estate company in New York state and, unless overturned, could force him to hand over control of his New York properties — including Trump Tower in midtown Manhattan from which he launched his presidential victory — to an independent third party, otherwise known as a receiver.

......David Cay Johnston, a long-time Trump critic and author of The Big Cheat, believes the trial will be fatal for Trump’s business interests. “This is incredibly serious for him because he’s not in business any more,” Johnston said. “Money is everything to him.”

“Donald has been a thief and a liar his entire life. But nothing’s happened to him. That’s a really astonishing part because there’s an unbelievably robust record, establishing that Donald has cheated people lied to people,” said Johnston.

.....Prosecutors honed in on a state law that gives the attorney general’s office the power to go after “persistent and repeated fraud and illegality”, including falsifying business records and using them in business transactions. In his ruling, Engoron said he saw evidence of this fraud in the documents prosecutors submitted as evidence.

“The documents here clearly contain fraudulent valuations that defendants use in business,” Engoron wrote in his ruling. “Defendants’ respond that: the documents do not say what they say; that there is no such thing as ‘objective’ value; and that essentially, the court should not believe its own eyes.”

Engoron said the attorney general’s evidence shows that Trump was operating in a “fantasy world, not a real world”.

“In the defendants’ world: rent-regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party’s lies,” Engoron wrote.

James’ investigation has been exhaustive. Her office said it found fraudulent conduct across 23 different Trump Organization properties and assets.

Specific examples include how Trump claimed that his triplex apartment in Trump Tower was worth $327m, an “absurd” amount to the attorney general’s office, which pointed out that, at the time, “only one apartment in New York City had ever sold for even $100m”. A Wall Street office building was valued by Trump at $530m, more than double what was calculated by independent professional appraisers. Meanwhile, 12-rent stabilized apartments in Trump Park Avenue a Manhattan condo was valued at $750,000 in an outside, bank-ordered appraisal of the property in 2010. A decade later, Trump said the same apartments were worth $50m.

The art of the fraudulent deal? Trump Organization trial set to begin

Case could cost former president a fortune and end his control of the empire that made him the world’s most famous businessman

www.theguardian.com

 

[moXJO]

They are just chasing him out of NY. Not that surprising. None of those property tycoons were clean through the 80s and 90s

 

[basilio]

They are just chasing him out of NY. Not that surprising. None of those property tycoons were clean through the 80s and 90s

Not quite MoXjo . In fact the criminality of Donald Trump ran from 1980's to now. When you check out the indictment all the allegations of fraudulent accounting are in the past 20 years if not more recently.

As for all the property tycoons not being clean ? Maybe. However unlikely to have been as blatant. But in any case no one else ran and won Presidency on the basis of his hugely successful business career. And now that "success" is exposed as largely a fraudulent scam .

No matter. As I said before the 40 million died in the wool Trump supporters will march over any cliff for him.

 

[wayneL]

Not quite MoXjo . In fact the criminality of Donald Trump ran from 1980's to now. When you check out the indictment all the allegations of fraudulent accounting are in the past 20 years if not more recently.

As for all the property tycoons not being clean ? Maybe. However unlikely to have been as blatant. But in any case no one else ran and won Presidency on the basis of his hugely successful business career. And now that "success" is exposed as largely a fraudulent scam .

No matter. As I said before the 40 million died in the wool Trump supporters will march over any cliff for him.

I'll bet you believe the $18m valuation of Maralago and the summary judgement?

 

[basilio]

I'll bet you believe the $18m valuation of Maralago and the summary judgement?

WTF you dope.

It is simple. If Donald Trump has evidence that the summary judgement is seriously wrong he has all the right to appeal. The judges statements however make it crystal clear Trump lives in a fantasy world that is not part of the legal or business community. It is one thing to crib a bit with valuations. Trumps valuations however make a mockery of reality. The Judge and legal system will not buy that fraud.

The Judges summary deserves a close read. Utterly destroys each and every specious legal argument made by Trumps lawyers

Trump Committed Fraud By Inflating His Assets, Judge Rules

New York Attorney General Letitia James has argued Trump inflated his net worth by $3.6 billion.

www.forbes.com

Read N.Y. judge's full Trump civil fraud summary judgment

A trial is still expected to begin Oct. 2 in the state attorney general's civil fraud case against the former president.

www.msnbc.com

 

[wayneL]

WTF you dope.

It is simple. If Donald Trump has evidence that the summary judgement is seriously wrong he has all the right to appeal. The judges statements however make it crystal clear Trump lives in a fantasy world that is not part of the legal or business community. It is one thing to crib a bit with valuations. Trumps valuations however make a mockery of reality. The Judge and legal system will not buy that fraud.

Trump Committed Fraud By Inflating His Assets, Judge Rules

New York Attorney General Letitia James has argued Trump inflated his net worth by $3.6 billion.

www.forbes.com

Read N.Y. judge's full Trump civil fraud summary judgment

A trial is still expected to begin Oct. 2 in the state attorney general's civil fraud case against the former president.

www.msnbc.com

Figures.

Cheers for the ad hom, Komrade.

 

[basilio]

The

Figures.

Cheers for the ad hom, Komrade.

Wayne anyone and everyone even you can read the Judges detailed statements on this case. The first 20 pages of the opinion demolish almost all of Trumps legal arguments with extensive reference to case law and numerous precedents. In a number of cases these were arguments that had been made in two previous appeals, totally demolished, but nonetheless re presented. The judge ruled this was frivolous and fined the lawyers accordingly.

From page 21 of the opinion the judge examines all of the contested valuations. Mars a lago is dealt with on page 25-27. When you go through the opinion it is clear that the judge is quite open to accepting 10-20% discrepancies in valuations as within the range of different assessors. However none of the these properties was anywhere near that level of latitude. Mars a Lago was the most conspicuous stannd out.

Good luck and naturally your welcome to return after you have become properly appraised of the legal discussion.

 

[wayneL]

The


Wayne anyone and everyone even you can read the Judges detailed statements on this case. The first 20 pages of the opinion demolish almost all of Trumps legal arguments with extensive reference to case law and numerous precedents. In a number of cases these were arguments that had been made in two previous appeals, totally demolished, but nonetheless re presented. The judge ruled this was frivolous and fined the lawyers accordingly.

From page 21 of the opinion the judge examines all of the contested valuations. Mars a lago is dealt with on page 25-27.

Good luck and naturally your welcome to return after you have become properly appraised of the legal discussion.

Thanks for that, "council". But don't you think the Donald should be able to make his own argument in a court?

Otherwise we are opening Pandora's box. This is something that perhaps those suffering Trump Derangement Syndrome, such as yourself, may live to regret. I would have thought someone like you, a history teacher, would be acutely aware of that.

 

[moXJO]

Not quite MoXjo . In fact the criminality of Donald Trump ran from 1980's to now. When you check out the indictment all the allegations of fraudulent accounting are in the past 20 years if not more recently.

As for all the property tycoons not being clean ? Maybe. However unlikely to have been as blatant. But in any case no one else ran and won Presidency on the basis of his hugely successful business career. And now that "success" is exposed as largely a fraudulent scam .

No matter. As I said before the 40 million died in the wool Trump supporters will march over any cliff for him.

Yeah run the ruler over politicians and you will find the same thing. Hell, run the ruler over most high net individuals.
Even the current US president who you seem to be very quiet on.

You just have a bug up your ar5e about Trump. There are so many corrupt criminals from all walks of life in NY (that are multi millionaires/billionaires) that it boggles the mind. Throw a rock and you will hit a hustler.

I'd be questioning the use of the judicial system being used as a weapon. That's the worst crime currently being committed. Stacked judges and prosecution. Dodgy looking use of fbi raids.

 

[basilio]

Thanks for that, "council". But don't you think the Donald should be able to make his own argument in a court?

Of course he can and did make his "own argument". As is his right. The facts however were that on all legal basis none of his arguments stood up.

A Court of Law runs off statutes as legislated and then previous cases which act as precedents for the application of these laws. If you check out the judges summary he dealt with all arguments on their legal merits. In fact in a couple of areas he agreed with the defendant.

But overwhelmingly the judge found that nothing Trumps lawyers said was legally valid. Beyond the individual rebuttal of each item Judge Engeron made the following statements which went to the core of almost all of Trumps arguments and his complete disdain for any objective reality. Trump has appealed the ruling. Given the legal detail offered and the degree of fraud clearly evident in the documents it will be amazing to rule against the judgement on any legal grounds.

In his ruling, it is clear that Engoron sees things differently.

“In defendants’ world: rent-regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party’s lies,” Engoron wrote.

“This is a fantasy world, not a real world.”

-----------------------------
NO. 1531 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 09/26/2023

The Trump Tower Triplex This Court takes judicial notice that the Trump Tower apartment in which Donald Trump resided for decades (the “Triplex™) is 10,996 square feet. NYSCEF Doc. No. 816 at 2. Between 2012- 2016, Donald Trump submitted SFCs falsely claiming that the Triplex was 30,000 square feet, resulting in an overvaluation of between $114-207 million dollars. NYSCEF Doc. Nos. 782 at Rows 833-834, 1028, 783 at Rows 799-800, 1199, 784 at Rows 843-844, 785 at Rows 882-883, 789 at Row 913, 817.

The misrepresentation continued even after defendants received written notification from Forbes that Donald Trump had been overestimating the square footage of the Triplex by a factor of three.!! In opposition, defendants absurdly suggest that “the calculation of square footage is a subjective process that could lead to differing results or opinions based on the method employed to conduct the calculation.'” NYSCEF Doc. No. 1293 at 20. Well yes, perhaps, if the area is rounded or oddly shaped, it is possible measurements of square footage could come to slightly differing results due to user error. Good-faith measurements could vary by as much as 10-20%, not 200%.

A discrepancy of this order of magnitude, by a real estate developer sizing up his own living space of decades, can only be considered fraud.'? OAG unquestionably satisfies its two-prong burden of demonstrating the SFCs from 2012-2016 calculated the value of the Triplex based on a false and misleading square footage, and that some of the defendants repeatedly and persistently used the SFCs to transact business.

__________________________________________

 

[basilio]

Yeah run the ruler over politicians and you will find the same thing. Hell, run the ruler over most high net individuals.
Even the current US president who you seem to be very quiet on.

You just have a bug up your ar5e about Trump. There are so many corrupt criminals from all walks of life in NY (that are multi millionaires/billionaires) that it boggles the mind. Throw a rock and you will hit a hustler.

I'd be questioning the use of the judicial system being used as a weapon. That's the worst crime currently being committed. Stacked judges and prosecution. Dodgy looking use of fbi raids.

Really ? You want to slur every other politican by saying they are all just as corrupt. And of course Joe Biden.

I suppose the simple solution is to say that Trump Law over rides any other law of the land.

 

[wayneL]

Of course he can and did make his "own argument". As is his right. The facts however were that on all legal basis none of his arguments stood up.

A Court of Law runs off statutes as legislated and then previous cases which act as precedents for the application of these laws. If you check out the judges summary he dealt with all arguments on their legal merits. In fact in a couple of areas he agreed with the defendant.

But overwhelmingly the judge found that nothing Trumps lawyers said was legally valid. Beyond the individual rebuttal of each item Judge Engeron made the following statements which went to the core of almost all of Trumps arguments and his complete disdain for any objective reality. Trump has appealed the ruling. Given the legal detail offered and the degree of fraud clearly evident in the documents it will be amazing to rule against the judgement on any legal grounds.

In his ruling, it is clear that Engoron sees things differently.

“In defendants’ world: rent-regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party’s lies,” Engoron wrote.

“This is a fantasy world, not a real world.”

-----------------------------
NO. 1531 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 09/26/2023

The Trump Tower Triplex This Court takes judicial notice that the Trump Tower apartment in which Donald Trump resided for decades (the “Triplex™) is 10,996 square feet. NYSCEF Doc. No. 816 at 2. Between 2012- 2016, Donald Trump submitted SFCs falsely claiming that the Triplex was 30,000 square feet, resulting in an overvaluation of between $114-207 million dollars. NYSCEF Doc. Nos. 782 at Rows 833-834, 1028, 783 at Rows 799-800, 1199, 784 at Rows 843-844, 785 at Rows 882-883, 789 at Row 913, 817.

The misrepresentation continued even after defendants received written notification from Forbes that Donald Trump had been overestimating the square footage of the Triplex by a factor of three.!! In opposition, defendants absurdly suggest that “the calculation of square footage is a subjective process that could lead to differing results or opinions based on the method employed to conduct the calculation.'” NYSCEF Doc. No. 1293 at 20. Well yes, perhaps, if the area is rounded or oddly shaped, it is possible measurements of square footage could come to slightly differing results due to user error. Good-faith measurements could vary by as much as 10-20%, not 200%.

A discrepancy of this order of magnitude, by a real estate developer sizing up his own living space of decades, can only be considered fraud.'? OAG unquestionably satisfies its two-prong burden of demonstrating the SFCs from 2012-2016 calculated the value of the Triplex based on a false and misleading square footage, and that some of the defendants repeatedly and persistently used the SFCs to transact business.

__________________________________________

In the opinion of an activist judge. Real estate values are not marked to market, as such valuations are extremely subjective.

2 years ago we sold a property which was professionally valued at £440k. Only three months later sold for £590k. Our own bolt hole is valued by realestate.com.au at $1.5 million with high confidence. Strongly doubt that we would realistically get more than 1.2.

In each case official valuations at least 20% off, and that is in fairly easy to value marketplaces.

I haven't delved into it too much but there is a massive difference in valuation according to realizable market value and valuation according to local authorities such as gross rental value or unimproved land value.

The test is in the performance of the financials. Who is the victim and whom did Trump purportedly defraud outside of acceptable commercial risk?

 

[wayneL]

I would also add that there is another party to this, and that is the financial institutions who are putting up the loan. Their security and due diligence prescribes that the valuations are somewhat conservative, therefore ensuring that the loan amount is recoverable in the event of default.

There seems to be a prima fascia case to be made that the lending institutions were in fact happy with the valuations as put forth, n'est-ce pas?

 

[IFocus]

Yeah run the ruler over politicians and you will find the same thing. Hell, run the ruler over most high net individuals.
Even the current US president who you seem to be very quiet on.

You just have a bug up your ar5e about Trump. There are so many corrupt criminals from all walks of life in NY (that are multi millionaires/billionaires) that it boggles the mind. Throw a rock and you will hit a hustler.

I'd be questioning the use of the judicial system being used as a weapon. That's the worst crime currently being committed. Stacked judges and prosecution. Dodgy looking use of fbi raids.

Your kidding?

Money is the God for the US in particular political parties you won't get elected without it especially after the Republicains lifted the limits.

Corruption follows, get caught and its 20 years plus.

The Republican's ran a special investigator against the Clintons re the Whitewater scandal you reckon that wasn't political?

Surprisingly they didn't find anything except Monica.

Then there was the small matter of the FBI opening the investigation on Hillary at the end of an election cycle you reckon that was not political?

Trump is a criminal by his own words how he hasn't already been locked up is a scandal in itself.

The courts in the US by and large are apolitical if Trump gets his way that will change.

 

[moXJO]

Your kidding?

Money is the God for the US in particular political parties you won't get elected without it especially after the Republicains lifted the limits.

Corruption follows, get caught and its 20 years plus.

The Republican's ran a special investigator against the Clintons re the Whitewater scandal you reckon that wasn't political?

Surprisingly they didn't find anything except Monica.

Then there was the small matter of the FBI opening the investigation on Hillary at the end of an election cycle you reckon that was not political?

Trump is a criminal by his own words how he hasn't already been locked up is a scandal in itself.

The courts in the US by and large are apolitical if Trump gets his way that will change.

Hillary was smashing hard drives with a hammer. She ran an off grid server among many other things. What she did was absolutely illegal you need to be blind to think otherwise. The system protected her. Biden's have glaring proof of corruption. The majority of politicians do. Whether through their organisations, charities they all have committed something.
Trump would have absolutely done illegal stuff during his "property mogul" days. But he was friends with the Clinton's and many other politicians then. Soon as he became a threat he has lost protection.

It's the timing. Just before his run. Seriously? None of you retards find it strange. Maybe believe another Russian dossier.

 

[IFocus]

Hillary was smashing hard drives with a hammer. She ran an off grid server among many other things. What she did was absolutely illegal you need to be blind to think otherwise. The system protected her. Biden's have glaring proof of corruption. The majority of politicians do. Whether through their organisations, charities they all have committed something.
Trump would have absolutely done illegal stuff during his "property mogul" days. But he was friends with the Clinton's and many other politicians then. Soon as he became a threat he has lost protection.

It's the timing. Just before his run. Seriously? None of you retards find it strange. Maybe believe another Russian dossier.

Trump is proof the US is in decline as for timing completely normal US politics.

 

[wayneL]

Trump is proof the US is in decline as for timing completely normal US politics.

It certainly is, but not in the way you think it is

 

[basilio]

Re Moxjo misdirection. The fraud charges against Donald Trumps businesses relate to business valuations from 2012-2022. He has got off scot free (to date) for any cruiminal behavior in the 80.s, 90's or 2000 decades.

Re Waynes property valuations Yes they can be flexible between different assessors . The Judge acknowledged that reality and was happy to allow a 10-20% allowance. What was deemed fraud was repeatedly stating Trumps Penthouse was 30,000 sq feet in area versus the actual 11,000 sq feet. Then using this trumped up figure to put in an over valuation of $114-207M dollars.

The valuation of Mars a Lago was similarly blue sky BS and ignored the specific zonings of the property (it was a social club) which Trump had asked for to reduce his taxes.

 

[moXJO]

Re Moxjo misdirection. The fraud charges against Donald Trumps businesses relate to business valuations from 2012-2022. He has got off scot free (to date) for any cruiminal behavior in the 80.s, 90's or 2000 decades.

Re Waynes property valuations Yes they can be flexible between different assessors . The Judge acknowledged that reality and was happy to allow a 10-20% allowance. What was deemed fraud was repeatedly stating Trumps Penthouse was 30,000 sq feet in area versus the actual 11,000 sq feet. Then using this trumped up figure to put in an over valuation of $114-207M dollars.

The valuation of Mars a Lago was similarly blue sky BS and ignored the specific zonings of the property (it was a social club) which Trump had asked for to reduce his taxes.

Misdirection.....
How's the Biden thread going?
You don't seem to be feverishly pulling out idiotic stories over there.

I said Trump was a dodgy corrupt property developer years ago. I've remained consistent on that. However the weaponization of the justice department is alarming.
So has been the years of bs accusations.
Oh and the timing and selection of prosecutors and judges.
Also the media have been deathly quiet on the Biden's.

 

[wayneL]

Misdirection.....
How's the Biden thread going?
You don't seem to be feverishly pulling out idiotic stories over there.

I said Trump was a dodgy corrupt property developer years ago. I've remained consistent on that. However the weaponization of the justice department is alarming.
So has been the years of bs accusations.
Oh and the timing and selection of prosecutors and judges.
Also the media have been deathly quiet on the Biden's.

And it should be pointed out that there is/was no default on any of the loans.