David Hicks protests

[Kauri]

so of the two charges, the attempted murder doesn't seem to have any grounds (never fired a shot at anyone - admitted by prosecution), and the second is retrospective.

Thats no problem if you get to make up the rules as you go along...

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1839870.htm
PM rejects call for retrospective Aust law for Hicks

Prime Minister John Howard says he does not believe the passage of retrospective laws in Australia is appropriate, despite Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks being charged under a retrospective law in the United States.

The Federal Opposition has accused the Government of double-standards over the draft charges announced for Mr Hicks, one of which was only passed into American law last year.

Labor is asking why the Government cannot introduce retrospective laws to enable Mr Hicks to be tried in Australia.
Mr Howard says what America decides to do is a matter for them.
"I don't equate what the US is doing with the passage of a retrospective criminal law in Australia, making offences that were not criminal offences at the time David Hicks did the things he's alleged to have done, crimes when they weren't at the time," he said.

seems to me, Mr Howard, you cant even see the total moral worthlessness of your statements, and, therefore the moral poverty you bring to the position you are holding as the leader of our country , and the ultimate upholder of its sense of values (and Australian-ness btw).

 

[vida]

What a joke our PM is !! Nothing but hypocrisy comes from his mouth and mind. He is so disgusting it makes my teeth ache.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1839870.htm
PM rejects call for retrospective Aust law for Hicks


seems to me, Mr Howard, you cant even see the total moral worthlessness of your statements, and, therefore the moral poverty you bring to the position you are holding as the leader of our country , and the ultimate upholder of its sense of values (and Australian-ness btw).

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Bob,

Hicks is undeniably foolish, to say the least. That said, he should not be incarcerated without charge for five years.

I do think his father has behaved with immense dignity throughout what must be a dreadful ordeal for him. He has been constant, but has refrained from hysteria. Compare his behaviour with that of the Corby Clan.

Julia

I doubt not the dignity of Hick's father, although I consider David Hicks to be an enemy combatant and regret not the 5 years he has been in custody. He served in Kosovo where enormous atrocities were perpetrated by both sides and was apprehended on military service in Afghanistan shortly after the atrocity of 9/11. I lost a cousin in the Twin Towers and may be emotionally biased. Every day that Hicks spends in custody may dissuade others who are intellectually challenged, personality disordered or plain treachorous from joining a militia which is so antipathetic to Australian values. Sometimes one has to look beyond simplistic values such as those expressed by the foregoing posters and appreciate the base enormity of the cause with which Hicks has aligned himself. It would bother me not if Hicks were never repatriated and served a reasonably long sentence in the USA. Garpal

 

[chops_a_must]

Sometimes one has to look beyond simplistic values such as those expressed by the foregoing posters and appreciate the base enormity of the cause with which Hicks has aligned himself.

Don't the US have that whole evil "freedom of assembly" thing going on?

Also:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

I guess emotions and vengeance win out hey? What's the difference between what the US are doing now, and what the Japanese did in Changi? Who cares right? It's not me, I don't have to worry about it!

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Don't the US have that whole evil "freedom of assembly" thing going on?

Also:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

I guess emotions and vengeance win out hey? What's the difference between what the US are doing now, and what the Japanese did in Changi? Who cares right? It's not me, I don't have to worry about it!

Dear Chops,

I appreciate your concern for process but fear that this present clash of values is one in which the West cannot afford to fight with one hand tied behind its back. These guys are fighting for an emotional/religiose ideal which respects not western ideas of fair trial, process and liberty. The Japanese in Changi were aggressors, unfeeling, brutes, who starved and tortured our forefathers in pursuit of a cult of worship of a shady emperor. Hicks and al qaeda and the bali murderers do not have anything in common with Australian POWs during WW2. In fact if they got the upper hand I am quite sure that Changi would more than suit their purposes for the imprisonment of western intellectuals and defence personnel prior to their disposal under their ideas of a fair law. Garpal

 

[chops_a_must]

Dear Chops,

I appreciate your concern for process but fear that this present clash of values is one in which the West cannot afford to fight with one hand tied behind its back. These guys are fighting for an emotional/religiose ideal which respects not western ideas of fair trial, process and liberty. The Japanese in Changi were aggressors, unfeeling, brutes, who starved and tortured our forefathers in pursuit of a cult of worship of a shady emperor. Hicks and al qaeda and the bali murderers do not have anything in common with Australian POWs during WW2. In fact if they got the upper hand I am quite sure that Changi would more than suit their purposes for the imprisonment of western intellectuals and defence personnel prior to their disposal under their ideas of a fair law. Garpal

Funny that. The Japanese still say the same about us.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Funny that. The Japanese still say the same about us.

Sorry mate, lost you there, what do the Japanese still say about us? Garpal

 

[chops_a_must]

Sorry mate, lost you there, what do the Japanese still say about us? Garpal

That we were the aggressors in WWII.

 

[2020hindsight]

The Japanese in Changi were aggressors, unfeeling, brutes, who starved and tortured our forefathers in pursuit of a cult of worship of a shady emperor.

I would argue that USA (and AUS) attacked Afghanistan, and Hicks found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And/or regrets it maybe?

We were after AQ leadership, and sadly didnt find em. Maybe this is a face saving exercise to take it out on Hicks?

More importantly, the actions of the current USA administration have been totally counterproductive. i.e have exacerbated the situation 100 fold.

Gotta feeling most fair minded observers would agree.

In the army we used to say there's a place for lazy intelligent officers - make the best commanders
also for gung-ho intelligent ones - make the best 2IC's
even for lazy unintelligent one - someone has to do the hack work,
but sure as hell, there's no place for gung-ho unintelligent ones - get you killed every time.

 

[Prospector]

More importantly, the actions of the current USA administration have been totally counterproductive. i.e have exacerbated the situation 100 fold.

Oh yeah!

You know, if this wasnt so tragic for David Hicks this whole thing would be laughable.

The US couldnt find Osama, yet within a couple of months the Indonesian Govt had found the Bali bombers. And then we have Jihad Jack who has been charged with liaising with Osama and now he is not allowed to contact Osama on his mobile. So we have an average Australian being able to contact Osama, but the US cant even find him?

 

[Nicks]

I would argue that USA (and AUS) attacked Afghanistan, and Hicks found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And/or regrets it maybe?

I think you are on the money with this. Prior to us attacking he had not committed any crime, apart from being stupid hanging out with nasty people, as people are doing all over the place in this world.

George Bush declares war and suddenly David is committing a crime. Prior to this declaration, he had not. Furthermore, George isnt even a representative of mine or Davids Government, Australia.

If the Iran declared war in the USA and Iran won (hypothetical here), and George Bush's duck shooting partner was captured, should he be kept in prison for many years and charged with committing a crime because he was hanging out with George W at the time? Im not saying David was doing nothing at the time while hanging out with his psycho mates in Afghan, but we actually dont know what he is being accused of to even decide. Food for thought.

 

[2020hindsight]

If the (anyone) declared war in the USA and ..(if any of us) was captured, should he be kept in prison for many years and charged with committing a crime..

I agree Nicks. As the ABC said this morning, this is all one terrible precedent for any of our soldiers who are captured in the future.

I read a book once about a pommie SAS soldier caught during the first Desert Storm war. He was forced to eat excrement, contracted Hepatitis etc. That's nothing to what will happen to the next soldiers caught - the captors (whoever they are) will just have to quote that they are "just doing what USA do". - let's not even consider Abu Ghraib.

The other comment they made is that (paraphrasing) "any sentence he gets will be in addition to his 5 years already imprisoned - these will have no credit".

Interesting to read a lawyer complaining about his own treatment at Guantanamo, when our Foreign Affairs spokemen keep painting the place as a dead-ringer for "Santuary Cove - with a few guards to attend to your every need".
Interesting also to hear a lawyer reduced to swearing.
And interesting that Americans couldn't be charged with this under US law
- nor could Australians under Australian law,
- and all the poms have been allowed home, but , sheesh
- for some reason it's ok to charge an Aus with these charges under US law.

Timing of Hicks charges 'an act of bastardry'
The Australian lawyer for David Hicks has accused the US military of an act of bastardry for waiting until the departure of his legal team to announce new charges. David McLeod has just returned from visiting his client at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, saying Hicks is a broken man.
....
Mr McLeod says he was with Hicks for four days but the US military waited until he left to announce the charges. "The fact that the day after we had spent four days with him, charges are presented to him in our absence, [that's] an act of bastardry on any scale," he said.

Mr McLeod also says he was interrogated during his latest trip to Guantanamo Bay. He claims he was subjected to an aggressive interrogation by an American military officer for speaking out in the media. "This is what happens when a lawless place like Guantanamo Bay is subject to scrutiny," he said. "They hate it, they don't want it, they don't invite, they don't encourage it. And when people speak out about it like myself - I get shirt-fronted."

Charges questioned. Mr McLeod says retrospective charges to be laid against his client are more evidence of an unfair system. He says the charge of providing material support for terrorism was enacted four months ago, while Hicks has been held for more than five years. "It doesn't apply to Americans, under the American constitution, charges cannot be preferred retrospectively to Americans," he said. "So here we have a process again designed specifically for non-Americans."

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Oh yeah!

You know, if this wasnt so tragic for David Hicks this whole thing would be laughable.

The US couldnt find Osama, yet within a couple of months the Indonesian Govt had found the Bali bombers. And then we have Jihad Jack who has been charged with liaising with Osama and now he is not allowed to contact Osama on his mobile. So we have an average Australian being able to contact Osama, but the US cant even find him?

Dear Prospector,

During the Vietnam War, American and Australian soldiers were demonised as a political strategy to defeat our governments actions in South Vietnam. During that war, Hanoi Jane Fonda found her way to sit on an anti-aircraft gun in the capital of her country's enemy. Some say that her own countrymen POWs were paraded in front of her. The physical movements or contacts of anti-government activists should not be used as a proof for a just or unjust war. Similarly with Jihad Jack, Willi Brigette, Hicks and numerous other fellow travellers. It doesn't take much nous to contact via phone/email or travel to meet any number of nutters about the world antipathetic to Australia's interests. Now western interests are being demonised by a soft intelligentsia with bums perhaps suitable for placement on an anti-aircraft gun. Which end of the gun I will leave to your imagination. Garpal

 

[robert toms]

Garpal...can you tell me just what western interests are ?
Especially in Iraq,seems to be a strategic disaster ?Counter productive and only in the interests of those that oppose "western interests".The jihadist extremists,as opposed to western extremists,have had their view of west justified by a cowardly,dishonest ,unprovoked attack on a defenceless Iraq.
By western extremists I mean,of course,the Coalition of the Willing.
It seems that western interest in the Iraq invasion was the oil,otherwise the other reasons,ie dictatorship,democracy,WMD's etc are too silly to contemplate.The "shock and awe" has proved anything but that.
How do you think western interests are best served ? I heard a US politician say that the Iraq invasion has been their biggest foreign policy disaster in living memory.
When you vilify David Hicks remember that there are political leaders in this country that urged violence and death on others...just to ingratiate themselves with their foreign policy masters in Washington.These individuals are much more culpable than David Hicks...and they have never been brought to account.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Garpal...can you tell me just what western interests are ?
Especially in Iraq,seems to be a strategic disaster ?Counter productive and only in the interests of those that oppose "western interests".The jihadist extremists,as opposed to western extremists,have had their view of west justified by a cowardly,dishonest ,unprovoked attack on a defenceless Iraq.
By western extremists I mean,of course,the Coalition of the Willing.
It seems that western interest in the Iraq invasion was the oil,otherwise the other reasons,ie dictatorship,democracy,WMD's etc are too silly to contemplate.The "shock and awe" has proved anything but that.
How do you think western interests are best served ? I heard a US politician say that the Iraq invasion has been their biggest foreign policy disaster in living memory.
When you vilify David Hicks remember that there are political leaders in this country that urged violence and death on others...just to ingratiate themselves with their foreign policy masters in Washington.These individuals are much more culpable than David Hicks...and they have never been brought to account.

Thanks Robert, a good comment,
Western interests, are impossible to define as they change with the decades, I think today they equate to post-modern anti fascist thoughts-in-action. They resond to numerous petty dictators and clerics, tribal misogynist leaders and immolative murdering newts.
Garpal

 

[2020hindsight]

The physical movements or contacts of anti-government activists should not be used as a proof for a just or unjust war.

nor should the words of pro-government activists (as history is sadly teaching us).
gotta feeling fonda dared to suggest that the domino theory was fiction.
(was gonna make reference to JFK , LBJ etc but gettin off the subject)

trouble is Garpal, USA is the big part of the problem, and is proving to be totally counterproductive to the solution, and to it's OWN interests. (however you define them)

 

[>Apocalypto<]

Ok here are my .


He was really in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Maybe he was just young and looking for excitement.

He really has had all his rights striped from him and the way the Ameican government has held him with out charge is is terrible

but jeez fighting for the terrorists, you got to accept the repercussions of your own actions.

 

[robert toms]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Who defines who is a terrorist?

 

[2020hindsight]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Who defines who is a terrorist?

Rocky III painted the muja heroes -