David Hicks protests

Freeballinginawetsuit · 31 March 2007

Considering everything......a good result for DH and must be a relief .

A good reminder to all to never 'Associate' ..... its a heftier sentence than most, requiring little more substantiation than heresay and an interrigators notes.

Thats completely aside from the length of due legal process... yada yada.

greggy · 31 March 2007

2020hindsight said:
Greggy, (and kennas) - you know why he has long hair don't you? - they said it was so that he could wrap it over his eyes to "turn off" the constantly-on-lights when he wanted to sleep -
And put on weight because no exercise - he was given a hard time by the other inmates in the exercise area who accused him of cooperating etc with CIA and prison management.

PS which in turn would suggest he's reformed , you'd think (? )

Hi 2020 Hindsight,

Throughout this process, I like many others was calling for Mr Hicks to get a fair trial within a reasonable amount of time. I feel that one's right to natural justice is crucial in a democracy. I didn't come into this debate from a anti-US point of view. I for one am a supporter of Australia's strong relationship with the US, but realise that sometimes mistakes are made (e.g. Iraq has turned out far worse than anyone expected).
As for Mr Hicks, I was just commenting on his appearnce, long haired and overweight. People were speculating that he would turn up to court in very thin shape.
I see many homeless people on the streets of Melbourne, having worked as a volunteer helping street kids, in far worse shape. Those in jail, though not a nice place to be, are fed and cared for much better than those who reside on Melbourne's streets.

bingk6 · 31 March 2007

Kauri said:
Will that make the Govt. guilty of benefitting from terrorism??? Surely that would warrant a year or two in Guantanamo.

LOL - Johnny might be interested if George tells him how good the food is at Guantanamo.

billhill · 31 March 2007

2020hindsight said:
And put on weight because no exercise

I read somewhere that troops that serve at guantanamo had to fill out a questionaire declaring whether they had issues with force feeding inmates. Maybe DH had the weight put on at the request of the australian government. They wouldn't want him coming back to oz looking like a nazi concentration camp survivor.

2020hindsight · 31 March 2007

billhill said:
I read somewhere that troops that serve at guantanamo had to fill out a questionaire declaring whether they had issues with force feeding inmates. Maybe DH had the weight put on at the request of the australian government. They wouldn't want him coming back to oz looking like a nazi concentration camp survivor.

Bill, You would have to assume that it's being carefully stage managed, wouldn't you.

I mean , Moe Davis is complimenting Howard and Ruddock personally
- even complimenting Michael Mori, who - no matter how good a job he did - was his opposition for chrissake - how often does it happen that lawyers compliment each other lol.

I mean, they've all been doing "presentation before the press" courses, yes?. Hint of damage control to my untrained eye. Downplaying the severity of the case, handshaking all round , etc etc . Strange. No way do they still believe Hicks is the bogey man they once claimed. I heard Moe David interviewed, asked why he said "Hicks was one of the worst", he replied (in effect) "he was one of the first", i.e. one of the first captured, and hence one of the first into court - hardly replied to the question at all ??

and in the end, Hicks isn't allowed to talk about any of this for 12 months. And Law Council of Australia have picked up on the "coincidence" that Hicks gets out of jail just after the election. - and is gagged a bit longer still

His dad has said that his son might be gagged, but no way he is.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1886515.htm
...Greens leader Bob Brown says Hicks's sentence is a political fix designed to keep him out of the political spotlight during this year's federal election campaign.

'Second chance'. The chief prosecutor at the US military tribunal hearing the case against Hicks says the 31-year-old is very fortunate and getting a second chance. Air Force Colonel Moe Davis has paid tribute to defence lawyer Major Michael Mori, saying Hicks owes him a great debt.

He says he also wants to thank Mr Howard and Attorney-General Phillip Ruddock, who have come under a lot of pressure over the case. "We promised that we'd provide a fair trial and I hope that this week we've shown that we lived up to our commitment," Colonel Davis said.

"Sometimes doing what's right is not always doing what's popular in the polls but they stuck with us. "We told them we'd provide a fair trial. They took us at our word and I believe that this week, we accomplished that, so I appreciate their support."

But a senior barrister with the Law Council of Australia, Lex Lasry QC, says the tribunal process has failed to meet international standards. "One of the remarkable things about today is the coincidence both in relation to the sentence and in effect the gag order that is on Mr Hicks under his pre-trial agreement," Mr Lasry said.

"As far as the Australian Government's concerned, it's interesting that there's an election in Australia later this year and Mr Hicks will be in custody until after it, and he won't be able to speak about his circumstances for another year."

Meanwhile (and only slightly related - I mean, only in that it's also called "a court" - and who are we to argue, after this latest sham...)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1886613.htm

Iran's ambassador to Moscow was meanwhile quoted as saying the the British sailors and marines may face trial, suggesting legal action had already started.

billhill · 31 March 2007

All too true unfortuanately 2020. Really what is the point of a gag on him other then preventing him from being a major issue at the next election. I just hope the rest of australia can see through this propaganda. Mind you i think his old man will try and shake things up a bit on his return.

2020hindsight · 4 April 2007

An interesting difference of opinion
Ruddock championing Hicks right to free speech (??)) yet Mori is arguing severe penalties for speaking out.

This would have to be the first time that anyone has dared to say that we can make a decision independent of USA !! damage control for sure.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1889044.htm
Hicks' media gag order can't be enforced: Ruddock
Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock says the gag order on convicted terrorist David Hicks cannot be enforced when he returns to Australia.

Hicks was ordered not to talk to the media for a year as part of his plea bargain with the United States Military Commission, which sentenced him to nine months' jail. Speaking to ABC TV's The 7.30 Report program on Tuesday, Hicks' military lawyer Major Michael Mori said a breach would have serious consequences.

"Violating many of the provisions of the pre-trial agreement actually could require him to serve the remainder of the sentence that's hanging over his head," he said. "He could potentially be brought back to Guantanamo to serve it."

But Mr Ruddock has told ABC TV's Lateline program, Australia could not extradite Hicks if he breached the order and there are no domestic laws to enforce it. "In Australia, we have a position about freedom of speech," he said.

"And proceeds of crime legislation deals with proceeds of crime and it can include literary proceeds, it's so people don't profit from it. "It's not to stop them telling their story." Mr Ruddock says Australia can only stop Hicks profiting from his story.

bel532 · 4 April 2007

billhill said:
I read somewhere that troops that serve at guantanamo had to fill out a questionaire declaring whether they had issues with force feeding inmates. Maybe DH had the weight put on at the request of the australian government. They wouldn't want him coming back to oz looking like a nazi concentration camp survivor.

Maybe people haven't or are unwilling to accept the bleeding obvious -inspite of the bleating and whinging Hicks was well looked after.

To compare Guantanamo Bay to the Nazi concentration camps really shows your ignorance. Maybe you should visit these camps one day to really discover what the Nazis did to people!

bel532 · 4 April 2007

billhill said:
All too true unfortuanately 2020. Really what is the point of a gag on him other then preventing him from being a major issue at the next election. I just hope the rest of australia can see through this propaganda. Mind you i think his old man will try and shake things up a bit on his return.

The best thing we can do is to send Hicks back to his mates in Afghanistan. I'm sure they will look after him! They might even give him a medal for a great acting performance

2020hindsight · 4 April 2007

bel532 said:
The best thing we can do is to send Hicks back to his mates in Afghanistan. I'm sure they will look after him! They might even give him a medal for a great acting performance

and the worst thing we can do is send people with prejudices to act as Aussie representatives in any foreign country. - including Afghanistan.

billhill · 4 April 2007

bel532 said:
Maybe people haven't or are unwilling to accept the bleeding obvious -inspite of the bleating and whinging Hicks was well looked after.

To compare Guantanamo Bay to the Nazi concentration camps really shows your ignorance. Maybe you should visit these camps one day to really discover what the Nazis did to people!

For one i am an avid WW2 enthusiest so don't lecture me on what nazi concentration camps were really like. I've read enough to realise the horrors that were endured. Second i did not compare guantanamo to a nazi concentration camp i merely speculated that his weight gain may have been due to being force fed so as to make him appear healthier on his appearance in the public eye. If he did come back malnourished and excessively skinny this would not bode well for the government. I never said these comments were true but that they could be a possibility.

bel532 said:
The best thing we can do is to send Hicks back to his mates in Afghanistan. I'm sure they will look after him! They might even give him a medal for a great acting performance

As for DH maybe he is acting and maybe he has done some bad things. This however is irrelevent in the sceme of things as the real issue is to do with human rights, moral values and a fair system of justice. If we ignore the geneva convention on torture as has been claimed to occur at guantanamo then we as a western society can have no standing whatsoever in telling other countries such as china to lift their game. You may think their is no inhumane treatment or injustice going on at guantanamo but the brittish government would beg to differ and i'm sure they have more reliable sources then you. If you want to support retrospective laws then don't whinge when china invades and condems you to prison without charge for aiding and abbetting the Australian enemy (in reality for being a POW) which is essentailly what the US government are doing. DH deserves a fair hearing. If he broke a law of the time he should pay the price, however if he didn't we have no right to treat him in the current manner.

bel532 · 4 April 2007

billhill said:
For one i am an avid WW2 enthusiest so don't lecture me on what nazi concentration camps were really like. I've read enough to realise the horrors that were endured. Second i did not compare guantanamo to a nazi concentration camp i merely speculated that his weight gain may have been due to being force fed so as to make him appear healthier on his appearance in the public eye. If he did come back malnourished and excessively skinny this would not bode well for the government. I never said these comments were true but that they could be a possibility.

As for DH maybe he is acting and maybe he has done some bad things. This however is irrelevent in the sceme of things as the real issue is to do with human rights, moral values and a fair system of justice. If we ignore the geneva convention on torture as has been claimed to occur at guantanamo then we as a western society can have no standing whatsoever in telling other countries such as china to lift their game. You may think their is no inhumane treatment or injustice going on at guantanamo but the brittish government would beg to differ and i'm sure they have more reliable sources then you. If you want to support retrospective laws then don't whinge when china invades and condems you to prison without charge for aiding and abbetting the Australian enemy (in reality for being a POW) which is essentailly what the US government are doing. DH deserves a fair hearing. If he broke a law of the time he should pay the price, however if he didn't we have no right to treat him in the current manner.

You sound like a legal person who likes splitting hairs.

If you associate with criminals you are immediately considered very suspect and there is no doubt that Hicks associated himself with criminals, in this case Al-Qaeda. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. You live by the sword, you die by the sword!

2020hindsight · 4 April 2007

bel532 said:
I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. You live by the sword, you die by the sword!

bel, they had married couples on that Insight program on Hicks - who also disgreed on this lol. and vehemently.
True, many don't have any sympathy for him. Personally, I trust the assessment of the Michael Mori's of this world that he is reformed. But you can harbour your dislike for him to your last breath if you wish. Me, I follow that forgivenss stuff that JC used to talk about.

One thing I am very uncertain about ,
I think the Bible mentions "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc". but (I assume) in the Old Testament (?).

And not after JC turned up , i.e. the New Testament. (?)

And the Koran has a lot in common with the Old Testament (?) - maybe even includes it (??)

And they just never got the message about forgiveness - in fact took it all to a new level with the "cutting off hands of thieves " etc (?)
Just guessing here.

billhill · 4 April 2007

bel532 said:
You sound like a legal person who likes splitting hairs.

No quite far from it. In fact I have a extreme disliking for the legal industry (blood sucking opportunists). Although I do like splitting hairs. I just believe in a fair go no matter who you are.

2020hindsight said:
Me, I follow that forgivenss stuff that JC used to talk about

What was that quote from schindler's list, something like "real power is being able to forgive".

bel532 · 4 April 2007

2020hindsight said:
bel, they had married couples on that Insight program on Hicks - who also disgreed on this lol. and vehemently.
True, many don't have any sympathy for him. Personally, I trust the assessment of the Michael Mori's of this world that he is reformed. But you can harbour your dislike for him to your last breath if you wish. Me, I follow that forgivenss stuff that JC used to talk about.

One thing I am very uncertain about ,
I think the Bible mentions "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc". but (I assume) in the Old Testament (?).

And not after JC turned up , i.e. the New Testament. (?)

And the Koran has a lot in common with the Old Testament (?) - maybe even includes it (??)

And they just never got the message about forgiveness - in fact took it all to a new level with the "cutting off hands of thieves " etc (?)
Just guessing here.

Until Hicks is 'reformed' doesn't he represent a terrorist risk? Even, if he 'says' he is contrite, can we trust him or are wee foolish enough to take his father's word as gospel?

greggy · 4 April 2007

It will be a relief to many now that Mr Hicks has finally had his trial. I for one am a little bit surprised as to why he plead guilty to charges. Some say that he wanted to get out of there asap while many others will argue that he was indeed gulity and was just honest thinking that he would get a shorter sentence this way. Throughout this process I've been totally amazed as to how this process took so long. Hopefully, the authorities will learn from it. I hope that when Mr Hicks returns to Australia that he will serve out his sentence and then become a law abiding citizen. Hopefully, he will not get involved in any further military operations overseas. Irrespective of any crimes committed, this is the land of the fair go and once he's finished his sentence then may be he will be given the opportunity to start a normal life once again. This will be my last contribution on this topic as Mr Hicks will soon becoming back to Australia to serve out the rest of his term. This has been a very interesting thread to say the least and my participation in it was my interest in seeing Mr Hicks receive natural justice. Some people may have incorrently described me as anti-American, pro-Taliban etc but this far from being the case. Much of the hard work being done in Afghanistan, led by the US, to stamp out any remaining terrorist camps is IMO to be applauded. If action had not been taken to oust the Taliban Govt in '01 I firmly believe that there could well have been even further terrorist attacks. Thank you to all fellow contributors to this thread, even those that I've disagreed with. Its great that we live in a country that respects and tolerates different opinions.

2020hindsight · 4 April 2007

greggy said:
Hopefully, he will not get involved in any further military operations overseas.

Greggy you are aware aren't you that USA say that if Hicks breaks any of his "life time parole conditions" that they will come and get him - whereever he is. The way it sounded they meant it. I mean I bet that would even be in Australia under the nose of the govt - or without disclosing it. (I only say that because te Aus Govt have been shown to be 110% submissive on this entire question, compared to the Brits for instance)

The really interesting condition imo was the question of speaking out within 12 months - lol - Ruddock saying he can't for the life of him work out how the USA court thinks they can impose something like that in Australia

I recall 10 or 20 years ago, a US court handing down a sentence to a boy , I think he was a Navejo, who had murdered his father. The sentence was ( wait for it) to go out into the world as a Mormon missionary ( to somewhere like Aus no doubt, lol - not too far from a McDonalds ) and spread the good word, lol. They are so lacking when it comes to seeing the moral bankrupcy of these sort of actions.

The "half life" of a moral principle over there is about the same as an electoral term. (imo). Likewise the half life of a political puppet or CIA trainee ( Bin Laden etc) . many of whom are todays flavour of the year - only to be a problem in 5 or 10 years

PS your posts are very elegant sir - you are obviously a gentleman - albeit a placard carrying one at the demo

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1889990.htm

Hicks won't risk speaking to media, lawyer says
The Australian lawyer for convicted terrorism supporter David Hicks says his client will not jeopardise the chance to reunite with his family, simply to tell his story. Hicks was ordered not to talk to the media for a year as part of his plea bargain with the United States military commission, which sentenced him to nine months in jail.

But Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock has indicated the gag order cannot be enforced when he returns to Australia.

Lawyer David McLeod says it is not a question of whether the condition could actually be enforced in Australia. He says Hicks wants to fade back into society after serving the rest of his nine-month sentence. "At this stage, David is focussed on getting home, that is occupying 99.9 per cent of his thoughts," Mr McLeod said. "Upon his return to Australia I'm sure that he'll have the luxury of being able to think of other matters but at this stage all he wants to do get back to Adelaide and be close to his family."

LOL, thought for the day - we might even see him as a member of ASF after Xmas - but he won't be able to post on this thread ok ? !! - lol - vested interest.

Garpal Gumnut · 4 April 2007

David Hicks has admitted his guilt and should be allowed serve out his time in South Australia.

It is interesting that SA should have spawned a war criminal from its population.

It has a long history of tolerance and acceptance of difference, particularly post Don Dunstan.

Perhaps its a regression to the mean.

Let him now serve his time and be forgotten, as he should be.

Garpal

rederob · 4 April 2007

Garpal
Hicks was never charged with being a war criminal.
He pleaded guilty to material assisting terrorism.

US (and other coalition) soldiers have a sad legacy of proven war crimes (http://www.nogw.com/warcrimes.html) and as Kauri has pointed out in other posts, attracted sentences that suggest they were just fun loving, naughty boys.

Greggy
Hicks' case never proceeded to trial.

Hicks' incarceration and legal process will continue to be discussed in legal forums for a long time to come. And I suspect the "true" story will be hunted down by the media as soon it is clear that Hicks' has, in Australia, a right to free speech - even in jail!
As Ruddock notes, tho, Hicks won't be holding any press conferences when he's returned to Australia.

bel532 · 4 April 2007

rederob said:
Garpal
Hicks was never charged with being a war criminal.
He pleaded guilty to material assisting terrorism.

US (and other coalition) soldiers have a sad legacy of proven war crimes (http://www.nogw.com/warcrimes.html) and as Kauri has pointed out in other posts, attracted sentences that suggest they were just fun loving, naughty boys.

Greggy
Hicks' case never proceeded to trial.

Hicks' incarceration and legal process will continue to be discussed in legal forums for a long time to come. And I suspect the "true" story will be hunted down by the media as soon it is clear that Hicks' has, in Australia, a right to free speech - even in jail!
As Ruddock notes, tho, Hicks won't be holding any press conferences when he's returned to Australia.

I'm sure that Hicks was a 'naughty' boy. Do all naughty boys go around the world, leave their wives and children at home, carry a gun and aid and abet terrorists? Some naughty boy!

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