David Hicks protests

[bel532]

Bel

You haven't read your history yet have you?

I have read my history very well, you just like to obfuscate it!

 

[Kauri]

You evidently know very lttle, if anything, of the history of the Muddle Ages! I am sure if was held in prison in the Middle Ages he would not have looked as healthy as he did when in made his appearance in court.

How healthy did he look??? Could you post a link so I can see...

 

[wayneL]

I have read my history very well, you just like to obfuscate it!

I would love for you to demonstrate my obfuscation. Till then you're speaking tosh.

 

[Sean K]

How healthy did he look??? Could you post a link so I can see...

I think he had put on weight actually. That's probably because he's been in a cell for years not getting any exercise and eating Maccas. I did watch a show during the week claiming the prision there is better than some in the US. That interview was with a US Army Officer.....

 

[greggy]

I think he had put on weight actually. That's probably because he's been in a cell for years not getting any exercise and eating Maccas. I did watch a show during the week claiming the prision there is better than some in the US. That interview was with a US Army Officer.....

I too think he's definitely put on weight. He needs a good haircut though.

 

[2020hindsight]

bel, here's a hypothetical legal tennis match - that either or both of USA and Hicks knowingly gave "support" to "terrorists".

http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html How Washington Funded the Taliban, by Ted Galen Carpenter

1. NAIVITY. Ted Galen Carpenter is vice president for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute . ....(U.S. officials gave USD43 mill and )... "were naive to take the Taliban edict at face value. The much-touted crackdown on opium poppy cultivation appears to have been little more than an illusion." .
score (US : Hicks) 15-0.

OK OK , you make the point that it is acceptable for the USA to be naive on this matter. Presumably Hicks can also use this argument . 15- all.

2. MORALITY ... "Even if the Taliban had tried to stem cultivation for honest reasons, U.S. cooperation with that regime should have been morally repugnant ...."
score 30-15

OK OK , 30-30.

3. THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME. " Even if the Bush administration had not been dissuaded by moral considerations, it should have been by purely pragmatic concerns. There was already ample evidence in the spring of 2001 that the Taliban was giving sanctuary to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network that had bombed two U.S. embassies in East Africa. For the State Department to ignore that connection and agree to subsidize the Taliban was inexcusably obtuse. "

Apart from the fact that the naivity factor just ramped up 5 fold, they lose points because they can't communicate between the "anti-terror" department and the "anti-opium" dept. (which appears to be off in a back room, maybe smokin the profits?)

If they didn't know by 2001 that the Taliban were evil they should have - they would have tripped over the sign below for instance on the way to the UN in 1998.

It's a nonsense to say that they could give support to Taliban (almost 3 years later in mid 2001) thinking it wouldn't benefit AQ who were well known to be gearing up there.

Also happytown's transcript of that phone conversation between a "USG official" and Taliban (Omar) proves that they were right onto Bin Laden in Aug 1998. .."7(C) our (air)strikes are in no way directed at the Afghan people or the Taliban, (just AQ). Bin Laden is like a guest who was shooting at neighbours out of the host's windows"
Score 40-30.

OK OK, let's accept that Hicks knew this stuff wasn't what he was taught at Sunday school. - wasn't a church picnic etc (all those clever similes that the pollies keep coming up with)
40-40.

4. CUNNING, REWRITING THE LEGAL SYSTEM RETOSPECTIVELY , and
5. COVERUP (Abu Ghraib mmm )
sorry, here Hicks has a perfect defence - he's too dumb (on the record).

game to USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B165CUYEJxs

PS :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Omar (this is the bloke on the phone to USG in happytown's post ..). Mullah Mohammed Omar (born c.1959, Nodeh, near Kandahar[1]) or simply Mullah Omar, is the reclusive leader of the Taliban of Afghanistan and was Afghanistan's de facto head of state from 1996 to 2001. He is also known as Commander of the Faithful, as declared by his followers in 1994.

Since the 2001 war in Afghanistan began he has been in hiding and wanted by U.S. authorities for harboring Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda organization. He is believed to be hiding in Pakistan. Despite his former political rank, and his current high status on terrorism wanted lists[2], not much is publicly known about this man. Few photos of him exist. During his tenure as "emir" of Afghanistan, most of the contact between that country and the rest of the world was via his foreign minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakkil.

 

[2020hindsight]

He needs a good haircut though.

Greggy, (and kennas) - you know why he has long hair don't you? - they said it was so that he could wrap it over his eyes to "turn off" the constantly-on-lights when he wanted to sleep -
And put on weight because no exercise - he was given a hard time by the other inmates in the exercise area who accused him of cooperating etc with CIA and prison management.

PS which in turn would suggest he's reformed , you'd think (? )

 

[2020hindsight]

Guess the evidence for contrition that we didn't have yesterday, we have today.
I agree with Kauri .. can't recall many opportunities he has had till now ...
May not be good enough for bel of course .
bel seems to say "you make one mistake that's it. except for Uncle Sam who is exempt" .

" In a statement read to the tribunal on his behalf, Hicks said he owed apologies to many people, including his family, Australia and the US. He has also thanked Australians for their compassion and forgiveness and has promised not to betray their support."

He;ll be back in Aus by end june (a full 5 or 6 months before the election, what a coincidence )

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1886350.htm
Hicks apologises, thanks Aust for support, By Michael Rowland

Confessed terrorism supporter David Hicks has apologised to Australia and the United States after being convicted by a US military commission at Guantanamo Bay.

Hicks returned to the Guantanamo Bay court room and admitted to a range of activities, including training at Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and meeting Osama bin Laden.

Presiding officer Colonel Ralph Coleman has convicted him on the charge of providing material support for terrorism.

Under the terms of a plea deal, Hicks will serve no more than seven years behind bars but an as-yet undisclosed portion of this sentence will be suspended.

He will return to Australia within 60 days.

In a statement read to the tribunal on his behalf, Hicks said he owed apologies to many people, including his family, Australia and the US.

He has also thanked Australians for their compassion and forgiveness and has promised not to betray their support.

 

[2020hindsight]

PS couple of words spring to mind, Noble words in my opinion.
"Contrition " - even has a meaning in theology ,.. remorse .. arising from the love of God (perfect) - or fear of divine punishment (imperfect)
(oops gotta feeling that following God was one the things that got him into trouble in the first place)

"Forgiveness" - seem to recall Jesus said something on that topic

PS you're right bel, I have intentionally put the one before the other.

PPS I can see Chaser now .... "that'll be 20,000 Heil Marys"

PPS Now that that's over, maybe time to make the inside of him as "healthy" as the outside of him appears to be in some eyes - allegedly as unfit as bugary lol.

 

[Happy]

David Hicks plea

From ABC, March 31, 2007,

By Michael Rowland and wires

HICKS APOLOGISES, THANKS AUST FOR SUPPORT


Confessed terrorism supporter David Hicks has apologised to Australia and the United States after being convicted by a US military commission at Guantanamo Bay.
Hicks returned to the Guantanamo Bay court room and admitted to a range of activities, including training at Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and meeting Osama bin Laden.

Presiding officer Colonel Ralph Coleman has convicted him on the charge of providing material support for terrorism.
Under the terms of a plea deal, Hicks will serve no more than seven years behind bars but an as-yet undisclosed portion of this sentence will be suspended.

He will return to Australia within 60 days.
In a statement read to the tribunal on his behalf, Hicks said he owed apologies to many people, including his family, Australia and the US.
He has also thanked Australians for their compassion and forgiveness and has promised not to betray their support.



Admissions
Hicks's chest-length hair was newly cut short and he wore a dark gray suit and tie as he stood before the judge.
Hicks raised his right arm and answered, "yes" in a guttural voice when asked if he would swear to tell the truth.
The judge read a list of the acts Hicks admitted to and asked him to affirm each one.
Hicks answered, "yes, sir" or "it's good," as the judge read each paragraph.

Hicks's plea agreement bars him from speaking to the media for one year and says if he ever sells the rights to his story, the Australian Government will get the money.
He was also banned from taking legal action against the United States.
Hicks had previously said he was abused by the US military but said in his plea agreement he had "never been illegally treated while in US custody".
- ABC/Reuters

Conspiracy theorists have two choices accept it or keep going.

 

[2020hindsight]

PS I would like to apologise for my many misdeeds and obfuscations - just as long as everyone else does too

PS I notice is originates from "to make dark"
Yet, I could have sworn that collectively, we have shed a lot of light on this topic
Heck even the pollies seem to be suddenly "enlightened". Marvellous things those elections.

 

[2020hindsight]

interesting extract from that Reuters article happy..

1.Hicks's plea agreement bars him from speaking to the media for one year and says if he ever sells the rights to his story, the Australian Government will get the money.
2. He was also banned from taking legal action against the United States.
3. Hicks had previously said he was abused by the US military but said in his plea agreement he had "never been illegally treated while in US custody".

1. why one year? the election is only 6 or 8 months or so ?
2. lol, my guess is Major Mori is likely to be silenced as well - and probably wants to move on with his job (his new job?) - bound to be in civvy street if he wants to make equivalent of Colonel.
3. I guess it's forgiveness time all round.

 

[rederob]

Re: David Hicks plea

Conspiracy theorists have two choices accept it or keep going.

What conspiracy?
Accept what?

We should never accept injustices, and that it is our ally - the US - that continues to perpetrate them says little for our choice of friends.

Just in case you missed it, and many have to date, there was no "trial".
This will have pleased the US more than Hicks, as the fabric of charges laid against Hicks is woven into guilt by "association" rather than specific "acts".

 

[2020hindsight]

1. Little Hicksups, are just pawns insignificant peanuts,
2. but for some, even on this forum constant supply of excitement and desire to fight for every human right.
3. Now when GUILTY plea was entered, could we look at the person as declared terrorist aide?

happy
1. probably right, but possibly the implications are massive, - heck you could go out on a limb (over a hypothetical beer) and argue that we are discussing tactics and attitudes that might start the next war - and you could possibly say it will affect US / AUS relations a smidgeon
2. fighting for human rights? bad thing ? lol
3. I would prefer to say lets define our terms with the addition of the word "past tense".

 

[Kauri]

interesting extract from that Reuters article happy..

1. why one year? the election is only 6 or 8 months or so ?
2. lol, my guess is Major Mori is likely to be silenced as well - and probably wants to move on with his job (his new job?) - bound to be in civvy street if he wants to make equivalent of Colonel.
3. I guess it's forgiveness time all round.

Hicks get nine months


31st March 2007, 8:30 WST

A U.S. military tribunal has sentenced Australian David Hicks to just nine months in prison after he pleaded guilty to supporting terrorism.

Well, a win all round for George and Johnny... George gets vindicated by a guilty plea and Johnny sweeps it under the carpet until after the election, by which time we will all have forgotten about it.

Hicks's plea agreement bars him from speaking to the media for one year and says if he ever sells the rights to his story, the Australian Government will get the money.

Will that make the Govt. guilty of benefitting from terrorism??? Surely that would warrant a year or two in Guantanamo.

 

[bel532]

I would love for you to demonstrate my obfuscation. Till then you're speaking tosh.

There's no obfuscati on my part. It's quite simple:

All these supporters of this pro terrorist Hicks want him back on the streets, so he can continue his 'jihad' against the West. Now that is intelligent!

I say incarcerate him until he vows (on the Koran or the bible whichever he believes in at the time) that he will NOT engage in terrorist activities. This is assuming, of course, that we can trust him to tell the truth. Maybe his father can vouch for him, now that would be something!

 

[numbercruncher]

Why dont they just return him to Afghanistan, thats where they found him, thats obviously where he wanted to be !!

Re-issue his AK47 and drop him off at the Kabul Airport, everyones happy then including Jihad Hicks.

 

[2020hindsight]

All these supporters of this pro terrorist Hicks want him back on the streets, so he can continue his 'jihad' against the West. Now that is intelligent!

My idea of intelligent ( not) is to waste 5 years trying to rewrite the rule book so that someone caught in Afghanistan when we invaded can be tried for something, anything , who cares if it's retrospective

while at the same time...
someone like Willy Brigitte is happily collecting all the intelligence about Lucas Hts and the electricity grid, etc - marries a girl with military training (now there's a coincidence I find hard to accept) and Australian security knows nothing about him, has to be told by France!. In fact the trial against him plotting against Australia has to happen in Paris.

You like Chasers, bel? see the one where a man dressed in Arab clothing asks questions at the Bridge, and at Lucas Hts - and then someone does it wearing a suit ? Do you see what they were getting at ? (PS write to them and ask em to explain - nothing like a well explained joke as they say )

Yes we should have good and meaningful and effective anti-terror laws .. Incidentally , even the experts differ... (and certainly some of the laws permitting lock-up-no-recourse are a worry). This is from a previous post. Note " overreaction and short term thinking may actually make Australia more vulnerable" (but no doubt you think he's unintelligent too)

This bloke seems to be convinced that our laws on terror are little more than kneejerk reactions designed to placade the public.
For the paper you'll have to read the attached pdf file.
towards the end he says "If we strive for the illusory goal of full protection from terrporism, we risk doing even greater damage to our society and its freedoms and values." .

http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/staff/WilliamsG/
George Williams is the Anthony Mason Professor and Director of the Gilbert + Tobin Centre of Public Law at the Faculty of Law, University of New South Wales...
A barrister, ....(freedom of speech), the Hindmarsh Island Bridge Case (freedom from racial discrimination) and Plaintiff S157/2002 v Commonwealth (review of government action and the rule of law) and in the Supreme Court and Court of Appeal of Fiji, including in Republic of Fiji v Prasad (legality of the 2000 coup). ....

 

[rederob]

There's no obfuscati on my part. It's quite simple:

All these supporters of this pro terrorist Hicks want him back on the streets, so he can continue his 'jihad' against the West. Now that is intelligent!

I say incarcerate him until he vows (on the Koran or the bible whichever he believes in at the time) that he will NOT engage in terrorist activities. This is assuming, of course, that we can trust him to tell the truth. Maybe his father can vouch for him, now that would be something!

Bel
You really are not too bright - intelligent, if you prefer - are you, despite your protestations to know so much?
You seem unable to come to grips with concepts of justice, preferring instead to attack a person that will never be given an opportunity to now tell his story contemporaneously, let alone through a trial process.
Whatever Hicks' views or actions may may be, on the basis of your "argument" what we need to do is get everyone to swear on a bible or their book of preference, and vow not to engage in terrorist activities.
You would argue that we only need to get the Hicks of this world to do this, I suggest.
However, how do we "weed out" all the other potential terrorists from those we can easily label?
The reality is that we cannot.
Indeed, there is a very close analogy between the actions of drug syndicates and terrorist organisations in that they target the least likely to be noticed to perpetrate their dastardly deeds.

I was only going to post in reply to your nonsensical assertion that "pro Hicks" meant pro terrorist. But your ability to draw illogical conclusions from your statements that are essentially non sequiturs is quite obfuscatory.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hicks gets nine months..

lol - Kauri - I thought you were joking.

... getting pretty hard to differentiate between truth and jokes
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17870312/

Australian Hicks must serve 9 months
Guantanamo detainee sentenced to 7 years, with bulk of time suspended.. etc