David Hicks protests

[rederob]

I'm sick to death of so called Aussies getting into trouble overseas aka the recent Lebanese conflict (what the hell were they doing in a well known 'trouble spot' in the first place?), and expecting our Government to help them out. I put Hicks in that category. Once you leave this country and consort with terrorists, or place yourself deliberately in a trouble spot, then it's your problem, not ours, period.

I couldn’t believe the sight of all the so called Aussie/ Lebanese whinging about the lack of Federal Government assistance to get them out of a hole they dug themselves into. What is their prime loyalty - Australia or Lebanon and why were so many there for so long in the first place?.

bel
Ah!
You cannot really be a citizen if you don't really have an Australian name or appearance.
The classic response of a xenophobe.
Hicks' case has nothing to do with "who's problem it is", except for those people that "personalise" the issue.
Those that disagree will disagree because they fail to understand that when you are part of a civilised society you extend a broad range of rights and responsibilities to all other members, without distinction.
Fundamental to a civilised society is a system of laws, at the heart of which is a presumption of innocence.
So irrespective of where you are and what you are alleged to have done, we have an expectation that if we ever are in trouble abroad our government will come to our aid.
Again, to some the above idea is just do-gooder craap.
Which means that Australia should have left our citizens in Bali to fend for themselves after the bombings because they ignored Government warnings that it was not safe to go there.
Because, as bel says, "once you leave this country and ...place yourself deliberately in a trouble spot, then it's your problem, not ours, period.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hicks' case has nothing to do with "who's problem it is", except for those people that "personalise" the issue.

Rob, apart from the fact that I agree with most of what you've said, I think we are all going to have to "personalise" this (sometime this year before he returns to civvy street) to the extent that we should be ready to say something (or nothing, whatever) - should we meet this bloke in the street. What he will probably prefer I guess with be nothing.

Personally I would love to have a chat with him - Or better still, when the stupid yanks stop trying to dictate to us about the rights of Aussies to Freedom of Speech - I would like him to be interviewed (in person) on the ABC for instance.

I know one thing I won't do - and that is go up to him wearing a prejudiced white peaked hood with eyes cut out.

 

[macca]

HI Rederob,

<You cannot really be a citizen if you don't really have an Australian name or appearance.>

I believe Bel was referring to the clamouring hordes not the physical appearance of each individual when this line was written.

I do tend to agree with Bel on this one, they chose to have permanent residency in an area that has been a war zone for a number of years, yet as soon as things got tough, WE, you and I, are expected to pay for their rescue, hardly fair when there are a number of issues that need funds right here in Oz, without wasting money on people who choose not to live here.

As far as Hicks is concerned, I do believe that he should have had his day in court long before this, I don't think he is a person that we need in this country, but he is an Ozzie so he is entitled to return here.

Anyone who thinks that anything he has done is good, or that he should be admired, is sadly in need of a reality check.

He is not someone who grew up in a situation without options, as do young Muslim men in Islamic countries, rather he is someone who chose to go and be trained to kill people that disagree with the Muslim lifestyle.

He volunteered to learn how to kill anyone who subscribes to the christian way of life, he volunteered to learn how to kill US, men women and children here in Australia.

Would you like to be living next to him ?

 

[bel532]

bel
Ah!
You cannot really be a citizen if you don't really have an Australian name or appearance.
The classic response of a xenophobe.
Hicks' case has nothing to do with "who's problem it is", except for those people that "personalise" the issue.
Those that disagree will disagree because they fail to understand that when you are part of a civilised society you extend a broad range of rights and responsibilities to all other members, without distinction.
Fundamental to a civilised society is a system of laws, at the heart of which is a presumption of innocence.
So irrespective of where you are and what you are alleged to have done, we have an expectation that if we ever are in trouble abroad our government will come to our aid.
Again, to some the above idea is just do-gooder craap.
Which means that Australia should have left our citizens in Bali to fend for themselves after the bombings because they ignored Government warnings that it was not safe to go there.
Because, as bel says, "once you leave this country and ...place yourself deliberately in a trouble spot, then it's your problem, not ours, period.

You are trying to deliberately 'muddy the waters'. There is no comparision, whatsoever, between those Aussies (and others) that went to Bali and got burnt, maimed or murdered by terrorists, and those Aussie/Lebanese who knowingly travelled (and stayed for some considerable time) to a well known troublespot. Not only that, after they had placed themselves in this well known trouble spot, they whinged and moaned forever after about our Federal Government.

What were so many Lebanese (20,000 according to some reports) doing there in the first place? I hope they wern't collecting welfare cheques from the Aussie Government whilst they were there!

 

[robert toms]

I live within one km of "youth farm" now defunct,it was called "yubelong". This is where David Hicks spent some of his youth.
It was farm for wayward boys without home life etc...trying to teach them skills on the farms. I remember once a young boy knocking on our day early one winter morning wanting to use the phone.
Unlike many of us Hicks did not have many options,he came from the wrong side of the tracks...and when he did start to become aware he made the wrong choices...not the choices that the vast majority of us would make. He wanted somewhere to belong and fell into the wrong hands.
Somehow I can see some parallels with some Australian soldiers that came home bragging how many that they had killed after the initial invasion of Iraq.
We train soldiers to kill people from other countries and justify this because a government tells them to. Hardly in defence of Australia!
I trust that Hicks has well and truly learnt a lot from his experiences,it will take longer for a lot of others to do the same...if they ever do.

 

[rederob]

bel
You want to have it both ways.
If the government tells you it's dangerous to be somewhere and you get hurt, it's not your fault if you were a tourist, but it is your fault if another country suddenly declares war on you?
Then, to "flavour" your argument you add the spurious notion that they (whoever this mysterious "they" are) you toss in the notion "they" might be collecting welfare cheques.
And you tell me that I am trying to muddy the waters!
Really.

macca
You won't find me suggesting that Hicks is a good lad. I frankly don't know.
The weight of evidence is that he followed his faith, in a manner I could never support, and has paid a high price.
If he lived next door I don't think I would care a hoot, although I would not like the media attention , so a few doors away would be a better deal.

 

[rederob]

2020
If I met Hicks in the street, I'd walk by.
If Hicks wanted to talk to me (and there is no reason he would), I would be an interested listener, but that's about all.

I would be more interested in talking to Major Mori, a person who I do respect.

 

[bel532]

bel
You want to have it both ways.
If the government tells you it's dangerous to be somewhere and you get hurt, it's not your fault if you were a tourist, but it is your fault if another country suddenly declares war on you?
Then, to "flavour" your argument you add the spurious notion that they (whoever this mysterious "they" are) you toss in the notion "they" might be collecting welfare cheques.
And you tell me that I am trying to muddy the waters!
Really.

macca
You won't find me suggesting that Hicks is a good lad. I frankly don't know.
The weight of evidence is that he followed his faith, in a manner I could never support, and has paid a high price.
If he lived next door I don't think I would care a hoot, although I would not like the media attention , so a few doors away would be a better deal.

Are you serious when you state that "it is your fault if another country suddenly declares war on you?" Do you realy believe that those Lebanese/Australians were NOT aware that Lebanon was a dangerous place to visit? There is nothing mysterious about the 'they' I refer to in my post. If you had read it carefully it would be very obvious that I am referring to the Aussie/Lebanese, who else would it be? I reiterate why were there so many Aussie/lebanese 'visiting' lebanon and, by some accounts, for a considerable period of time.

Aussie is certainly a great place.You place yourself in a trouble spot, ignore all warnings, and then expect the Government to get you out of trouble! Do you know how many have returned to Lebanon and do they expect the Federal Government to get them out again, if trouble reoccurs?

The same apllies to those Vietnamese/Aussies and others who travel to SE Asia to peddle drugs, get caught and expect the Federal Government to extricate them.

 

[rederob]

bel
So if I was an "Aussie/Aussie" or an "Irish/Aussie" in Lebanon, that would be ok?
The government should help me because I am not a "Lebanese/Aussie", and they clearly knew Israel was going to declare war and never deserved to be helped.
Yes, I can see the logic - Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi.

As a "Czech/Aussie" I guess I am lucky not to have been holidaying in Prague when the Russians invaded.

 

[bel532]

bel
So if I was an "Aussie/Aussie" or an "Irish/Aussie" in Lebanon, that would be ok?
The government should help me because I am not a "Lebanese/Aussie", and they clearly knew Israel was going to declare war and never deserved to be helped.
Yes, I can see the logic - Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi.

As a "Czech/Aussie" I guess I am lucky not to have been holidaying in Prague when the Russians invaded.

Are you seriously suggesting that the 'Aussies 'who went to Lebanon did not know it was a war zone? We are not that naive! Oz is certainly a great country when its citizens can travel to a war ridden country in great numbers and then expect the Government to extricate them when things get tough! Oz is certainly the land of 'milk and honey'!

Incidentally, since Israel was also under attack,
did the Federal Government help any Aussie/Israelis to leave and return to Australia? I never heard of any.

 

[rederob]

The same apllies to those Vietnamese/Aussies and others who travel to SE Asia to peddle drugs, get caught and expect the Federal Government to extricate them.

This is another discussion again.
bel's argument immediately assumes you are guilty if you are charged with possessing drugs.
Have a chat to Michelle Leslie's dad if you hold such well-founded views :
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/models-drugs-bust/2005/08/22/1124562774586.html
Leslie's case remains controversial.
At least her ecstacy on release was visible.

 

[bel532]

bel
So if I was an "Aussie/Aussie" or an "Irish/Aussie" in Lebanon, that would be ok?
The government should help me because I am not a "Lebanese/Aussie", and they clearly knew Israel was going to declare war and never deserved to be helped.
Yes, I can see the logic - Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi.

As a "Czech/Aussie" I guess I am lucky not to have been holidaying in Prague when the Russians invaded.

This is another discussion again.
bel's argument immediately assumes you are guilty if you are charged with possessing drugs.
Have a chat to Michelle Leslie's dad if you hold such well-founded views :
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/models-drugs-bust/2005/08/22/1124562774586.html
Leslie's case remains controversial.
At least her ecstacy on release was visible.

Leslie aside, I have no time for drug peddlers. They are the scum of the earth, as they ruin many, many lives. Aside from LESLIE (small time) and the Bali Nine, most Aussies caught trying to import drugs into Australia are Vietnamese Aussies. Remmember the fuss about the one caught in Signapore and executed?

 

[rederob]

Are you seriously suggesting that the 'Aussies 'who went to Lebanon did not know it was a war zone? We are not that naive! Oz is certainly a great country when its citizens can travel to a war ridden country in great numbers and then expect the Government to extricate them when things get tough! Oz is certainly the land of 'milk and honey'!

Incidentally, since Israel was also under attack,
did the Federal Government help any Aussie/Israelis to leave and return to Australia? I never heard of any.

You will have to educate me about the known war zones around the world.
And then you may want to become an adviser to the many multinational companies that were in Lebanon because it was safe, and had been so for many years.
As for Australia assisting citizens in Israel, there was no need.
Very little Israeli infrastructure was affected, while the chance of getting hit by a rocket was slim, and confined only to northern Israel.
Meanwhile, by every conventional standard, Israel's attack on Lebanon was disproportionate, targeted principally on civilians, and totally destroyed the entire nation's infrastructure.
But it's yet another interesting diversion from the topic thread, which you seem to have difficulty with, unless you make it personal.

 

[rederob]

Leslie aside, I have no time for drug peddlers. They are the scum of the earth, as they ruin many, many lives. Aside from LESLIE (small time) and the Bali Nine, most Aussies caught trying to import drugs into Australia are Vietnamese Aussies. Remmember the fuss about the one caught in Signapore and executed?

I share the sentiment.
But Australian Customs has a very different view on who the drug smugglers are: And if I said more on a public forum it would not be wise.

 

[2020hindsight]

I would be more interested in talking to Major Mori, a person who I do respect.

good point - man's a giant - must follow his career
but I'd also like to talk to Hicks to get the Downer-to-earth facts, unfiltered by the pollies

PS anyone agree with me that Scott Rush doesn't deserve death sentence ? (gee I feel for his father - who alerted the police with a view - as I understand it - to having him stopped from leaving Aus in the first place)

PS don't forget that NA are growing a large percentage of the worlds opium poppy (was it 75%? - posted back there anyway) - production has gone mad since Afghanistan was freed from the Taliban. - presumably under the eye of the UN / USA ?

 

[chops_a_must]

Are you seriously suggesting that the 'Aussies 'who went to Lebanon did not know it was a war zone?

It wasn't you tard. Danger zone is totally different from war zone. You can't help being caught up in a region that is invaded.

By this logic, those caught in Singapore before the Japanese invasion should not have been helped at all in getting out.

 

[Joe Blow]

Gents lets not let this discussion degenerate into name calling and personal attacks.

Thanks!

 

[rederob]

Gents lets not let this discussion degenerate into name calling and personal attacks.

Thanks!

Interesting time to enter, Joe.
So it's ok to say "Burn the Bugger" in relation to Hicks, as posted earlier in this thread, but not pick-up bel on glaring misconceptions.

bel continues to misread, misrepresent and miscontrue, lest there be no misunderstandings.

Step up to the plate with some solid debate, please.

 

[Joe Blow]

Interesting time to enter, Joe.
So it's ok to say "Burn the Bugger" in relation to Hicks, as posted earlier in this thread, but not pick-up bel on glaring misconceptions.

Rob, my job is to defuse situations where personal attacks and name calling start to creep in. I am not taking sides in this debate nor involving myself in it. Just here to enforce the site rules.

bel continues to misread, misrepresent and miscontrue, lest there be no misunderstandings.

Then it may be time to walk away from the debate. Nothing worse than a discussion that goes nowhere. Sometimes you have to simply agree to disagree.

 

[rederob]

Then it may be time to walk away from the debate. Nothing worse than a discussion that goes nowhere. Sometimes you have to simply agree to disagree.

Joe
If there was a "debate" that was going nowhere, I would.
There's very little debate.
Some posters are intent on kicking Hicks, who is already down.
It really doesn't matter if it was Hicks or anyone else that was in Guantanamo as a denial of justice is a denial of justice: The merits of the case are incidental.
I see the "Hicks protest" thread as being about his treatment, not his worthiness.
When I try to bring the discussion back to the issue of how we, as a supposed civilised society, treat one another, there are some that can only relate everything back to the individual.
Every year in the US people are executed for crimes they did not commit. The majority are found guilty by association or colour or race, rather than the facts.
Captain Chaza says "burn the bugger".
Our government had labelled him the worst of the worst.
And at the end of the day, Hicks never got to trial, so his side was never heard, nor was the case against him ever tested.
Even when Hicks finally has his gag order lifted, anything he says that people disagree with, they won't believe.
Usually in matters like this we can find a "winner" or two, somewhere.
Apart from media moments, one is hard pressed.