David Hicks protests

[bel532]

It wasn't you tard. Danger zone is totally different from war zone. You can't help being caught up in a region that is invaded.

By this logic, those caught in Singapore before the Japanese invasion should not have been helped at all in getting out.

You would need to be deaf in both ears and blind in both eyes not to be aware that Lebanon, at that time, was NOT A War/Danger zone. I repeat: Why were so many (in proportion to the total lebanese population) Aussie/Lebanese doing there for all that time? Weren't they lucky they had an easy escape route, courtesy of the Aussie Government. Sorry, I meant the Aussie tax payer!

 

[chops_a_must]

You would need to be deaf in both ears and blind in both eyes not to be aware that Lebanon, at that time, was NOT A War/Danger zone.

Are you seriously suggesting that the 'Aussies 'who went to Lebanon did not know it was a war zone?

You wouldn't happen to be a major shareholder in MPD would you?

 

[2020hindsight]

Remember Powell? he's the one who was given the job of selling the WMD to the UN - with limited success. Well if he's convinced they should close Guantanamo, who are we to argue?

well done all who voiced "concerns" - not only were you eventually heard in Canberra (election year and all that), but sounds like you are now being heard in Washington.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2007/s1948163.htm
Powell urges Bush to close Guantanamo Bay

ABC Broadcast: 11/06/2007
Reporter: Tom Iggulden
Former United States secretary of state Colin Powell has criticised the legal system that convicted David Hicks, saying it denies natural justice.

Transcript
TONY JONES: One of the most senior members of George Bush's original White House team has called on the President to close Guantanamo Bay. The former secretary of state Colin Powell has also criticised the military commission system that convicted David Hicks, saying it denies natural justice.

Tom Iggulden reports.

TOM IGGULDEN: Colin Powell's always spoken his mind when it comes to his disagreements with the policies of the Bush Administration. But none of his criticisms have been as direct as today's.

COLIN POWELL, FORMER US SECRETARY OF STATE: We have shaken the belief that the world had in America's justice system by keeping a place like Guantanamo open and creating things like the military commission. We don't need it and it's causing us far more damage than any good we get for it.

TOM IGGULDEN: He's not the first former or current senior administration official to criticise Guantanamo. The Defence Secretary, Robert Gates, recently expressed his reservations. But Colin Powell is calling on the President to act now.

COLIN POWELL: If it was up to me I would close Guantanamo not tomorrow, but this afternoon.

TOM IGGULDEN: The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is not advocating letting Guantanamo's inmates free, but he is urging the President to bring them before the US civilian court system where they would have the right to challenge the legality of their detention through writs of habeas corpus.

COLIN POWELL: So let them, isn't that what our system is all about? And by the way, America unfortunately has two million people in jail, all of whom had lawyers and access to writs of habeas corpus. We can handle bad people in our system.

Interesting that Albania / Kosova gets special mention - but Hick's contribution doesn't get a mention .

TOM IGGULDEN: President Bush spent his weekend being mobbed by adoring fans in Albania, one of Europe's poorest countries. Languishing in the polls at home and facing protest in his recent swing through Northern Europe, the President clearly enjoyed the support.

Albania's Prime Minister is one of the few European leaders still enthusiastically contributing to the coalition of the willing in Iraq, describing President Bush as "the greatest and most distinguished guest we have ever had".

GEORGE W BUSH, US PRESIDENT: Albanians know the horror of tyranny and so they're working to bring the hope of freedom people who haven't known it, and that's a noble effort and a sacrifice, and I appreciate your sacrifice.

TOM IGGULDEN: President Bush also delivered what's been seen by some as the pay-off for Albania's support in the war on terror, publicly backing independence for the Serbian province of Kosovo and its majority Albanian population.

GEORGE W BUSH: Sooner than later you've got to say enough's enough, Kosovo's independent, and that's the position we've taken.

TOM IGGULDEN: In return, the Albanians have named a street after the President and also issued a stamp in his likeness. Tonight, the President's made his way to another Balkan state, Bulgaria, where the US maintains a large military base. Tom Iggulden, Lateline. Search Lateline

 

[petervan]

2020hindsight ,did you see 4 corners last night. I watched the last 20 minutes and similar to Hicks the goverment put up the sgt. Schultz defence . Will be interesting to see what they say about Habib now a paper trail leads to the goverment showing them clearly lying.Notice no reporting in the murdoch press about the goverment lying .

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

.. throughout history the dogooders have undone stable societies due to there nancy ways.

Do you all know more thatn the government?

 

[petervan]

Which stable societies have been undone by people telling the truth and doing good. None come to mind

 

[disarray]

Which stable societies have been undone by people telling the truth and doing good. None come to mind

"truth" and "good" aren't absolutes.

as for guantanamo bay, it is yet another example of how bad american foreign policy is. they were much better off outsourcing the torture camps to pakistan where the media doesn't have access and things like "the rule of law" and "geneva convention" tend not to apply.

as for WMD, the allies knew saddam had them because they sold them to him. saddam just moved them across the border into syria when the allies came knocking.

 

[2020hindsight]

- did you see 4 corners last night.

Peter, nope - but will do so Thursday night when repeated - thanks!!

(The ladies of the household usually watch some damned soapie on Monday nights, so if I want to watch, i have to use the TV in the garage - and last night it was just too bludy cold lol.)

The show that I wish everyone saw was last week's Cutting Edge on SBS - 2 hours of it - it was a fantastic review of how Osama BL has emerged. Anyone else see it ?

Firstly (and we're only talking 20 years ago) one of a handful of Arabs in Afghanistan - seriously just a few dozen or so, - who went to help fight the Russians. Seriously rich of course - his father had 50 odd kids with 20 odd wives.

Made a reputation (fighting hard - tunnel complex as base - which would assist his subsequent escapes), used the press to advantage , photograhed in a cave ( living as Mohammed did) eating the scraps others left etc. Suddenly 100s of Arabs flock to Afghanistan.

Then ... he gambled that he could beat USA in "his briar patch" - the mountains that had been so helpful in beating the Russians - then African Embassy attacks, and or course 9/11 - basically he totally miscalculated - when US / AUS etc attacked and whipped his forces and the Taliban, we was virtually wiped out - no longer a force to be reckoned with - a spent force - and then...

da da ...

We go and attack Iraq, and sheesh - it was the greatest gift he could have asked for !! - You had to see the full documentary - such a mistake to go into Iraq sheesh !!!

 

[Bobby]

.. throughout history the dogooders have undone stable societies due to there nancy ways.

Greetings Snake,

Done little posts in the last few months, but I'm back to stick up the dopes
Infact I'm considering placing a couple of posters into Bobbys wobble jar, that hindsite been in it for some time now.

Bobby.

 

[disarray]

america went into iraq because saddam was moving towards using the euro as his defacto oil currency. america wields an enormous amount of power because they essentially get their oil for free (trading oil for $US). a country with the reserves of iraq changing the global defacto oil currency to the euro would mean the US would actually have to start paying real money for oil instead of just printing paper so they invaded. its really not much more complicated than that. the invasion of kuwait, WMD or whatever were just justifications for the pursuit of their "free energy for me" policy.

iraq did have a reasonable justification to invade kuwait. the kuwaitis were drilling close to the iraqi border at an angle and tapping iraqi oil fields which saddam used as justification to invade kuwait.

iraq also did definately 100% for sure possess WMD's, supplied by the americans and the french, and used against northern kurds and southern shia arabs. he just moved them all into syria (which now possesses a reasonable WMD stockpile) to keep the allied forces from finding them.

as for david hicks - he was a muslim jihadi who killed (or attempted to kill) indian, serbian and american soldiers while serving in various conflict zones. he can rot in hell for all i care.

 

[2020hindsight]

disarray
I repeat (what SBS said at least ) ...

when US / AUS etc attacked and whipped his forces and the Taliban, we was virtually wiped out - no longer a force to be reckoned with - a spent force - and then...

da da ...

We go and attack Iraq, and sheesh - it was the greatest gift he could have asked for !!

If you know different to them, then ... so be it I guess.

 

[disarray]

yeah i know the taliban got pasted, but afghanistan was largely irrelevant to the overall american strategy. iraq was going to be invaded no matter what because saddam was going to move the oil standard from $US to euros. saddam was a threat to americas voracious appetite for energy so the path was set.

to be totally honest osama is a nobody. the taliban are nobodies. all the US cares about is its energy supply. islamists make convenient boogeymen, but they aren't much of a threat outside that (spectacularly audacious stunts like 9/11 notwithstanding).

in fact iraq is quite the godsend in a way. jihadis from all over the muslim world are coming to iraq to take a shot at americans and are being slaughtered in record numbers. its like iraq is a big barrel and all those psycho muslims are the fish. the bodycount on the islamist side is horrendous.

 

[2020hindsight]

There are some background videos on noiruas post (as follows) but not the safe study of the relative strength of Al-Qaida before and after Iraq - it's dramatic. After 9/11, US had world sympathy (and arguably the moral high ground) - now to thousands - no millions - somehow he does (and we are going backwards bigtime) :-

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=130198&highlight=leaders#post130198

I extracted this from the Wikipedia that noirua mentioned . - a long read, but a few interesting facts there ... for instance
"Al-Qaida" means "database", i.e. the original list of names that Bin Laden had collected after Russia was kicked out of Afghanistan.

If anyone doesn't have time to watch all 5 of those 5 videos ( each about 8.5 minutes = 43 minutes) - then I'll mention that #5 starts with 9/11, that's if you don'e have time to watch how to got to be what he is.
But in the end it's no where near as good as that Cutting Edge program was last week (hopefully it will be replayed)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden Robin Cook, former leader of the British House of Commons and Foreign Secretary from 1997-2001, wrote in The Guardian on Friday, July 8, 2005,
Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.[43]

However, Peter Bergen, a CNN journalist and adjunct professor who is known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997, rejected Cook's notion, stating on August 15, 2006, the following:
that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden—is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.[44]
Bergen quotes Pakistani Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf, who ran ISI's Afghan operation between 1983 and 1987:
It was always galling to the Americans, and I can understand their point of view, that although they paid the piper they could not call the tune. The CIA supported the mujahideen by spending the taxpayers' money, billions of dollars of it over the years, on buying arms, ammunition, and equipment. It was their secret arms procurement branch that was kept busy. It was, however, a cardinal rule of Pakistan's policy that no Americans ever become involved with the distribution of funds or arms once they arrived in the country. No Americans ever trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen, and no American official ever went inside Afghanistan.[45]
……………………..
According to reports (by the BBC and others), the 1990/91 deployment of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia in connection with the Gulf War upset Muslims because the Saudi government claims legitimacy based on their role as guardians of the sacred Muslim cities of Mecca and Medina. After the Gulf War cease-fire agreement left Saddam Hussein remaining in power in Iraq, the ongoing presence of long-term bases for non-Muslim U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia continued to undermine the Saudi rulers' perceived legitimacy and inflamed anti-government Islamist militants, including bin Laden.
Bin Laden's increasingly strident criticisms of the Saudi monarchy led the government to attempt to silence him. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, "with help from a dissident member of the royal family, he managed to get out of the country ……..When the Saudi government began putting pressure on him in 1991, bin Laden moved to Sudan. The Saudi government revoked his citizenship in 1994.
………..
Consequently, in May 1996, under increasing pressure from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United States, Sudan asked bin Laden to leave and he returned to Afghanistan. He chartered a plane and flew to Kabul before settling in Jalalabad after being invited by Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, leader of the Islamic Union for the Liberation of Afghanistan, a member of the Afghan Northern Alliance. After spending a few months in the border region hosted by local leaders, bin Laden forged a close relationship with some of the leaders of Afghanistan's new Taliban government, notably Mullah Mohammed Omar.[51] Bin Laden supported the Taliban regime with financial and paramilitary assistance and, in 1997, he moved to Kandahar, the Taliban stronghold.[52]
…………….
In response to the 1998 United States embassy bombings following the fatwa, President Bill Clinton ordered a freeze on assets that could be linked to bin Laden. Clinton also signed an executive order, authorizing bin Laden's arrest or assassination. In August 1998, the U.S. launched an attack using cruise missiles. The attack failed to harm bin Laden but killed 19 other people.[58]
…………..
After the 9/11 attacks, the reward offered by the U.S. government increased to $25 million
………………
Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004, another taped statement was released and aired on Al Jazeera in which bin Laden abandoned his denials without retracting past statements. In it he told viewers he had personally directed the 19 hijackers,[7][70] and gave what he claimed was his motivation:

"I will explain to you the reasons behind these events, and I will tell you the truth about the moments when this decision was taken, so that you can reflect on it. God knows that the plan of striking the towers had not occurred to us, but the idea came to me when things went just too far with the American-Israeli alliance's oppression and atrocities against our people in Palestine and Lebanon.[71][72]"
………….
Attempts at assassination and requests for the extradition of bin Laden from the Taliban of Afghanistan were met with failure.[84] In 1999, U.S. President Bill Clinton convinced the United Nations to impose sanctions against Afghanistan in an attempt to force the Taliban to extradite him.
…………….
According to the U.S. government, Osama bin Laden was present during the battle of Tora Bora, Afghanistan in late 2001, and according to civilian and military officials with first-hand knowledge, failure by the U.S. to commit U.S. ground troops to hunt him led to his escape and was the gravest failure by the U.S. in the war against al Qaeda
……………

On that last point, the Cutting Edge program interviewed a military officer whose men could actually see Bin Laden and could have picked him off, but they checked and , as the officer says "typical we were told not to go there to risky etc". The Taliban / AQ sent a manout under white flag to negotiate - this officer simply said " we're not interested in any negotiation except full surrender" (or blow them out of the water implied). And by the time they did attack, and there were a lot of AQ/Taliban casualities that day, - Bin Laden had fled.

But really weakened him "politically".
then Iraq as I mentioned
and the rest is history.

Needless to say, they conclude that he has been playing the US (and by association the coalition of the willing ) like a puppeteer

 

[2020hindsight]

to be totally honest osama is a nobody. the taliban are nobodies. all the US cares about is its energy supply. islamists make convenient boogeymen, but they aren't much of a threat outside that (spectacularly audacious stunts like 9/11 notwithstanding).

in fact iraq is quite the godsend in a way. jihadis from all over the muslim world are coming to iraq to take a shot at americans and are being slaughtered in record numbers. its like iraq is a big barrel and all those psycho muslims are the fish. the bodycount on the islamist side is horrendous.

jeez disarray...
sometimes I wonder what you're smoking

does anyone else here think that AQ are "no bodies" - ? convenient boogeymen? ignore em ?
that their numbers have decreased since Iraq?

so what's the fuss been about Hicks then ?

The yanks are so bludy terrified that (old Texas saying) "they don't know whether to sh*t or go blind".

And any sensible Australian is also (rightfully) extremely worried

 

[disarray]

does anyone else here think that AQ are "no bodies" - ? convenient boogeymen? ignore em ?
that their numbers have decreased since Iraq?

so what's the fuss been about Hicks then ?

The yanks are so bludy terrified that (old Texas saying) "they don't know whether to sh*t or go blind".

And any sensible Australian is also (rightfully) extremely worried

well yeah. the power of nightmares points to the neo-con dominated, zionist sympathetic US using islamic jihadis as the new boogeymen since the fall of the soviet union.

militarily speaking AQ are armed only with AK's, rpg's and some explosives and stand no chance against the technological might of the US army. they have no force projection capability and rely on local cells to organise small scale terror attacks. they are hardly any threat to the global dominance of the west, and the yanks are hardly terrified. sure they ramp up the fear and uncertainty but that is a political tactic as old as time itself to ensure the continued acquiesence of the sheeple, it doesn't mean they are worried.

after afghanistan AQ were hammered yes, and american screwups in iraq have swelled their numbers again. not disagreeing with you there. my point is that an invasion of iraq was a foregone conclusion, however america has botched it so badly the islamists have garnered a lot of sympathy from the muslim world and have come back stronger. had american policy not been so blatantly greedy and short sighted then things would have turned out much differently.

as for david hicks, i don't what all the fuss is about either. the leftists were just making their usual bleating noises to get some attention (as they always do) but the main point is, once again, american policy with regards to gitmo was so flawed the camp became more of a hindrance to their policy than help.

jeez disarray...
sometimes I wonder what you're smoking

you talk a lot without knowing very much don't you?

 

[2020hindsight]

So I take it you don't disagree with the point that I've now tried to make 3 times?

disarray
I repeat (what SBS said at least ) ...

Quote:
when US / AUS etc attacked and whipped his forces and the Taliban, we was virtually wiped out - no longer a force to be reckoned with - a spent force - and then...

da da ...

We go and attack Iraq, and sheesh - it was the greatest gift he could have asked for !!

If you know different to them, then ... so be it I guess.

And btw, this is pretty much identical to what I posted on "videos with a message" thread a coupe of weeks back ...
quoting Richard Dawkins incidentally ( or do think he's an idiot as well)
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=163446&highlight=dawkins#post163446

BIN LADEN'S VICTORY (Excerpts from article)
- Richard Dawkins, Saturday March 22, 2003, The Guardian

Osama bin Laden, in his wildest dreams, could hardly have hoped for this. A mere 18 months after he boosted the US to a peak of worldwide sympathy unprecedented since Pearl Harbor, that international goodwill has been squandered to near zero. Bin Laden must be beside himself with glee. And the infidels are now walking right into the Iraq trap. There was always a risk for Bin Laden that worldwide sympathy for the US might thwart his long-term aim of holy war against the Great Satan. He needn't have worried. With the Bush junta at the helm, a camel could have foreseen the outcome. And the beauty is that it doesn't matter what happens in the war.

Imagine how it looks from Bin Laden's warped point of view...
etc etc

Saddam Hussein has been a catastrophe for Iraq, but he never posed a threat outside his immediate neighbourhood. George Bush is a catastrophe for the world. And a dream for Bin Laden.

· Richard Dawkins FRS is the Charles Simonyi Professor at Oxford University. His latest book is A Devil's Chaplain (Weidenfeld & Nicholson).

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-1018.html
This is only a fraction of it - if you want the book (with about double that article in the Guardian) you might have to go to the Uni of Sydney library.
And btw, note the date -

"I wrote this article on March 18 2003, two days before Iraq was invaded." - so he had pretty good foresight - as did Nelson Mandela and other people who you'll find quoted here in the ASF archives.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Greetings Snake,

Done little posts in the last few months, but I'm back to stick up the dopes
Infact I'm considering placing a couple of posters into Bobbys wobble jar, that hindsite been in it for some time now.

Bobby.

Hello Bobby,

Good to see you posting again.
Yes, why do some only post garbage on general chat? Some agenda they have me thinks. Reality will bite them in the ****.

Snake

 

[disarray]

not disagreeing with your main points at all. just pointing out that

a) america was going to invade iraq because iraq was going to sell oil in euros, not $US. an invasion was going to happen no matter what, the war on terror just provided a convenient justification.

b) al-quada aren't a threat to us in any traditional sense (ie. invasion, coup d'etat etc.). the "terror" they inspire is out of all proportion to their actual capabilities, it is just the government and media using AQ as a boogeyman to frighten the populace into behaving. proper governments should inspire the populace into behaving but we don't really see much inspiration these days so terror will have to do.

 

[2020hindsight]

(and) al-quada aren't a threat to us in any traditional sense (ie. invasion, coup d'etat etc.). the "terror" they inspire is out of all proportion to their actual capabilities, it is just the government and media using AQ as a boogeyman to frighten the populace into behaving. proper governments should inspire the populace into behaving but we don't really see much inspiration these days so terror will have to do.

and then we get to the question of how much will be spent on security 8- 9 September during 19th APEC meeting in Sydney etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia-Pacific_Economic_Cooperation
including cell phones being out of action for some of it etc.

To say nothing of the amended travel plans of people who used to go to nice quiet Bali for a break

Likewise, I'm not saying we should overreact - but cripes, the current coalition of the willing will leave the world 1000 times more dangerous than when they came in.

 

[Julia]

the current coalition of the willing will leave the world 1000 times more dangerous than when they came in.

Yep, and more afraid, and considerably more inconvenienced with all the added security which makes travel a nightmare.