David Hicks protests

[Julia]

cmon....a therapeutic dose!.

Maybe DH just pleaded guilty because the carrot dangled was more appealing than if it was removed,

Its not as if he would have held much hope in any form of justice being afforded him by the US Military!...they would have been busy covering thier backsides with lies/fabrications.....bending any possability of a fair trial for the poor bugger.

I've never suggested Hicks has received a fair trial or would have had he elected to plead not guilty. My comment was purely on the basis of Chops saying that he had been fed nothing but hallucinogens for days (apologies if those are not the exact words) which struck me as an overstatement, particularly if none of us actually knows what he may have been given and for what. Just trying to reduce the amount of hysteria and hyperbole, that's all.

OK, new question: assuming he gets to come home to Australia to jail here, will he become a hero/martyr, with thousands flocking to visit him? Probably. And what will that do to/for his undoubtedly already damaged psyche?

 

[moXJO]

Mo,

You are mixing up the issues here, as are many. The issue is of a fair trial.

This latest trial, 5 YEARS late and much alleged mistreatment later. is not a FAIR trial.

If found guilty of something (and not something trumped up especially for the occasion) deal with him accordingly.

If not, let the poor bastid go.

That is the issue and it's as simple as that.

I thought the case was on hold while U.S. courts debated whether the military tribunals were legal. The rules had to be re-written after being ordered to do so by the U.S. Supreme Court, which had found the original set-up unconstitutional.Which when done hicks was the first to trial.

So in effect it was more fair than what it was.

At least these Guantanamo guys are being watched by the world in a more favourable light.There is a much greater scrutiny on what is going on after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse.

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

I've never suggested Hicks has received a fair trial or would have had he elected to plead not guilty. My comment was purely on the basis of Chops saying that he had been fed nothing but hallucinogens for days (apologies if those are not the exact words) which struck me as an overstatement, particularly if none of us actually knows what he may have been given and for what. Just trying to reduce the amount of hysteria and hyperbole, that's all.

OK, new question: assuming he gets to come home to Australia to jail here, will he become a hero/martyr, with thousands flocking to visit him? Probably. And what will that do to/for his undoubtedly already damaged psyche?

Julia,

No doubt Hicks will be afforded some following.....human nature. IMO he never was afforded justice from the outset that any Australian citizen should be afforded and our Government ensure..........a timely and fair trial.

No doubt Hicks was no Angel, but the US treated him unjustly IMO and our PM stood by and enabled that to happen......even promoted it. SHAME!.

Cheers

 

[bel532]

Has Fred Nile:

* issued a Jihad against women?

* banned all forms of music a la the Taliban in Afghanistan?

*issued a Fatwah forcing all women to dress in strict Islamic code?

etc. etc.

I live in Victoria so maybe I haven't heard about it. It would certainly be news to me.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hicks was in Kosovo because he believed in all the propaganda thrust into his head by the extreme Muslim movement.

I dont think he was even a moslem when he went to Kosovo.

simple question bel - what did you think of the slaughter of moslems in Bosnia ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hicks
In 1999, Hicks traveled to Albania, where he joined the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a paramilitary organisation of ethnic Albanians fighting against Serbian forces in the Kosovo War, and served with them for two months. [12] On returning to Australia Hicks applied to join the Australian Army but was rejected due to his level of education.[10] Hicks then converted to Islam and began to study Arabic

what a shame he wasn't accepted in Aust Army

As I posted back there a bit ...

As for NATO being slow to go into Kosovo, (by comparison to Hicks - not that I'm suggesting we should all be taking these things on ourselves) - international opinion seems to wait until things get totally out of control before they act. (the blood soaked doll that "galvanised" world opinion and NATO / UN will to act in Kosovo; or I guess the bloodbath after the East Timor elections for that matter, after which Aus / UN finally acted )

Wikipedia :- "the threats [by international community] intensified once again but a galvanising event was needed. They got it on September 28 when the mutilated corpses of a family were discovered outside the village of Gornje Obrinje; the bloody doll from there became the rallying image for the ensuing war. "

Maybe you're into a Hollywood version of what Bosnia and Kosovo was like, go watch the likes of "Behind Enemy Lines", Owen Wilson - about downed pilots in Kosova, or Bosnia, forget). typical Hollywood, bludy gruesome etc

Speaking of Hollywood, Rambo III treats Mujahadeen as heroes (and they were just "Taliban in their infancy")

The best-known mujahideen were the various loosely-aligned Afghan opposition groups that fought against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan during the 1980s and then fought against each other in the subsequent Afghan Civil War.

The mujahideen were significantly financed, armed, and trained by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the Carter and Reagan administrations, Saudi Arabia, the People's Republic of China, several European countries, Iran, and Pakistan (during the Zia-ul-Haq military regime). The Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) was the interagent used in the majority of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance.

Ronald Reagan praised them as freedom fighters, and the 1988 Rambo III portrayed them as heroic.

A wealthy Saudi named Osama bin Laden was a prominent mujahideen organizer and financier; his Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) (Office of Services) funnelled money, arms, and Muslim fighters from around the world into Afghanistan, with the assistance and support of the Saudi government. In 1988, bin Laden broke away from the MAK. Afghanistan's resistance movement was born in chaos, ... etc

bel, you're probably right, one of us is probably, if not naive, then somewhat incapable of thinking outside that square that the authorities would have us believe.

 

[Julia]

Julia,

No doubt Hicks will be afforded some following.....human nature. IMO he never was afforded justice from the outset that any Australian citizen should be afforded and our Government ensure..........a timely and fair trial.

No doubt Hicks was no Angel, but the US treated him unjustly IMO and our PM stood by and enabled that to happen......even promoted it. SHAME!.

Cheers

Agree entirely on the justice question, Freeballing.
I will, however, be interested to see how much of a cause celebre he becomes when he returns.
The only hero in this whole sorry saga, imo, is his father who must have lived through any parent's worst nightmare and has somehow remained sane and mostly reasonable. He's the one who deserves our respect.

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

Has Fred Nile:

* issued a Jihad against women?

* banned all forms of music a la the Taliban in Afghanistan?

*issued a Fatwah forcing all women to dress in strict Islamic code?

etc. etc.

I live in Victoria so maybe I haven't heard about it. It would certainly be news to me.

Picking at straws..........plenty of straws to pick in World/Society's/Religious History.

Relevance to Hicks issue?

 

[bel532]

I dont think he was even a moslem when he went to Kosovo.

what a shame he wasn't accepted in Aust Army

Thank goodness the Army had enough common sense to see Hicks would be totally unsuitable for the army.

It is patently obvious that prior to travelling to Kosovo he was already considering converting to Islam. His time there simply cemented his thoughts.

And of course I do not agree with the slaughter of the Kosovars, that is just a provocative, unrelated statement on your part.

Thank goodness the Americans were there to sort out the Serbs whilst the Euros were just standing by and did nothing (same as the Dutch)!

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

The Americans sort out the Serbs......where from? their planes?!

 

[2020hindsight]

And of course I do not agree with the slaughter of the Kosovars, that is just a provocative, unrelated statement on your part.

well m8, nor did DH. Only difference between you and him on that score is that he acted, and you talked. (not that I'm suggesting we should all go off sorting out the world's problems. )

by the way I meant to post link to Wikipedia back there ...(re Ronald Regan championing the Mujahadeen / infant Taliban) . Taliban went to Washington and were welcomed - ? - did you know that ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahadeen

 

[chops_a_must]

Has Fred Nile:

* issued a Jihad against women?

Or course he hasn't, he hates Islam. He does however, campaign incredibly hard for the reduction in funding to female health services.

* banned all forms of music a la the Taliban in Afghanistan?

He has tried to. He rallies against just about every band that comes here. Lol! The Marilyn Manson debate was rather funny.

Haha, Stryper:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rvzwXqixjXM
Man, these guys were marsh mellows and Christian rockers, and he still didn't like it!

*issued a Fatwah forcing all women to dress in strict Islamic code?

Worse, he tells men what to wear. Lol!

But of course he doesn't promote "Jihad" or issue "Fatwahs" because he is isn't a muslim!

 

[2020hindsight]

nothing to do with Hicks, but interesting notes on the Taliban. - no question they were ridiculously tough on women / murderous even. - converting World Aid donated soccer field to slaughter amphitheatre etc - (I recall quote from Taliban spokesman at the time .. "If you wanted us to play soccer, you should have given us TWO fields - the first most importantly for slaughter, the second maybe for soccer" ).

Interesting comparison with Tunisai (anthems thread) where wearing of the hijab is illegal in some circumstances. Drug production under Taliban dropped - Wikipedia implies they stopped 99.8% of production (?) - rewarded handsomely by USA. "Following the fall of the Taliban regime, the areas controlled by the Northern Alliance resumed opium production[4] and by 2005 production was 87% of the world's opium supply." No such thing as "emphatically 100% good news" from that part of the world it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban
Treatment of women. Women were made to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic dress in accordance with the Taliban's interpretation of Islamic law. Women were also not allowed to study after the age of 8. According to the four madhabs the covering of the face is an obligation. This is held by a minority of Muslim scholars, however, in light of recent movements involving women's rights. There were many reports of Muslim women being beaten by the Taliban for violating the Shariah.

Drugs. Opium poppies have traditionally been grown in Afghanistan, and, with the war shattering other sectors of the economy, it became the number one export of the country. Opium cultivation continued to thrive during most of the Taliban period, despite attempts to ban it. However, in 2000 the Taliban enforced its ban to the maximum extent; even punishing drug cultivators and dealers with summary executions.

The Taliban banned opium poppy cultivation in Afghanistan in late 1997, but the law was widely unenforced as the Taliban had not yet controlled the whole country. A popular myth is the belief that the Taliban are using this drug money to wage their war on the west. However, when the Taliban entered North Waziristan in 2003 they immediately banned poppy cultivation and punished those who sold it.

Thus by 2000, Afghanistan's opium production still accounted for 75% of the world's supply. On July 27, 2000, the Taliban again issued a decree banning opium poppy cultivation. By February 2001, production had been reduced from 12,600 acres to only 17 acres. In July 2001, the United States gave the Taliban 48 million dollars for reducing 99.86% of the production.[3] Following the fall of the Taliban regime, the areas controlled by the Northern Alliance resumed opium production[4] and by 2005 production was 87% of the world's opium supply.

Back to women's dress, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab "applies to all Muslim men and women." - presumably budgie smugglers would definitely be banned as well.

Islam's holy book, the Qur'an, orders Muslims to dress in a "modest" fashion. Following verses are generally interpreted as applying to all Muslim men and women.
Surah an-Nur ayah 31 says: "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent."

I still recall that scene from movie Ghandi, where he says during one of his hunger strikes to one of his Hindi followers, "I want you to adopt a Moslem boy" .. reluctant " no probs" from the follower.... "and", says Ghandi , "to bring him up as a Moslem".

 

[2020hindsight]

The NA better not try exporting that heroin to Bali, they'll end up on death row with Scott Rush . And I guess the 48 million USD that the Taliban were given for getting rid of opium production has been well and truly swamped by payments to NA for (amongst other things) resurrecting that crop.

 

[tdkx669]

I didn't get why people support a guy who can be terrorist. Who might be harmfull for Australia. And people are jumping to help him and bring back to australia. Its really surprising to me we always support convict such as Corby and now Hicks.

 

[2020hindsight]

.. "If you wanted us to play soccer, you should have given us TWO fields - the first most importantly for slaughter, the second maybe for soccer"

actually they used to hang the men from the goalpost crossbar at one end, and shoot the women on the 16 yaerd line at the other. - make sure the spectators at each end got their money's worth -
PS the Taliban were extremists with an insane sense of justice. Surely we must aim to make our justice system as transparently perfect as we can . (despite the old joke "you want justice?, go to a whorehouse - you want to get screwed?, go to court )

 

[greggy]

I can't wait for people to comprehend that the Western World is fighting an adversary that is committed to nothing less than its total destruction. Hicks is a part, albeit a small part, of their aim to destroy the freedom and liberty enjoyed by Western democracies.

Reminds me of all those 'do gooders' (maybe sympathisers might be a more apt description) who couldn't or refused to see the 'true' face of Facism prior to WW11 or the true face of totalitarian Communism.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

Hi Bel532,

You may have missed the point here. All along many people have been saying that deserved a fair trial within a reasonable amount of time. In other words, natural justice. I feel that Mr Hicks was foolish to somehow get involved in the situation. This does not mean that we're sticking up for Osama and his hairy mates. They are indeed a bunch of evil dudes.

 

[2020hindsight]

Thank goodness the Army had enough common sense to see Hicks would be totally unsuitable for the army.!

Quick comments from the peanut gallery -
1. You know don't you bel, that the US has lifted the requirement for servicemen/women to have clean criminal record. ?
2. Did you watch Fahrenheit 9/11, especially the part where they target poor black areas for GI recruiting drives.

 

[moXJO]

well m8, nor did DH. Only difference between you and him on that score is that he acted, and you talked. (not that I'm suggesting we should all go off sorting out the world's problems. )

by the way I meant to post link to Wikipedia back there ...(re Ronald Regan championing the Mujahadeen / infant Taliban) . Taliban went to Washington and were welcomed - ? - did you know that ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahadeen

And supporting a terrorist organization is a great act as well? Here we have a guy that trained in camps to kill ,was on the front lines in Afghanistan even if only for a few hours, and when it got to hot tried to flee and was caught. Are you trying to make a hero out of this guy or support the Taliban’s actions?Even if there was only a slight chance he put our troops at risk in anyway then his lock up was well deserved.

Iraqi was a huge F*up we had no right going in there but Afghanistan was a different ball game altogether

 

[greggy]

And supporting a terrorist organization is a great act as well? Here we have a guy that trained in camps to kill ,was on the front lines in Afghanistan even if only for a few hours, and when it got to hot tried to flee and was caught. Are you trying to make a hero out of this guy or support the Taliban’s actions?Even if there was only a slight chance he put our troops at risk in anyway then his lock up was well deserved.

Iraqi was a huge F*up we had no right going in there but Afghanistan was a different ball game altogether

Iraq has turned out to be a complete mess. More resources should be put in Afghanistan to put an end to the terrorists' game there. I feel that the Iraq situation has taken away the focus from the progress being made in Afghanistan.

 

[happytown]

I didn't get why people support a guy who can be terrorist. Who might be harmfull for Australia. And people are jumping to help him and bring back to australia. Its really surprising to me we always support convict such as Corby and now Hicks.

You don't have to support the person to support the process.

cheers