David Hicks protests

[chops_a_must]

And from this you feel able to say that "he had been fed nothing but hallucinogens for days" (I think those were your words).? !! Benadryl is an antihistamine. It is not an hallucinogen. Big difference.

I do, however, have a problem with extravagant and possibly baseless statements such as the above re hallucinogens.

Julia

Oooo, I would hate to be a child of yours with a cough Julia.

The fact that they cannot say how much they gave him, leads me to suspect that they were feeding him this while the final negotiations were underway. It's really not that hard a thing to do. And as was said, this stuff isn't prescribed by GI docs... for obvious reasons.

Diphenhydramine:

Like many other first generation antihistamines, is also a potent anticholinergic agent. This leads to profound drowsiness as a very common side-effect, along with the possibilities of motor impairment (ataxia) and tardive dyskinesia, dry mouth and throat, flushed skin, rapid or irregular heartbeat (tachycardia), blurred vision at nearpoint due to lack of accommodation (cycloplegia), abnormal sensitivity to bright light (photophobia), pupil dilatation (mydriasis), urinary retention (ischuria), constipation, difficulty concentrating, short-term memory loss, visual disturbances, hallucinations, confusion, erectile dysfunction, and delirium. Diphenhydramine also has local anesthetic properties, and has been used for patients allergic to common local anesthetics like lidocaine. [2]

It is known that diphenhydramine contains sedative properties. Many new antihistamines have been introduced without the side effect of sedation. The drug is also used as a sleep aid and is an ingredient in many sleep aids, such as Unisom gelcaps, and most notably Tylenol PM where it is combined with Acetaminophen (Paracetamol), and Sominex which has diphenhydramine as its only active ingredient.

Those who use diphenhydramine recreationally take a higher dose than recommended dose (usually between 100mg and 450mg) for its deliriant effects. The mental effects are described by many as "dreaming while awake" involving visual and auditory hallucinations which, unlike those experienced with most psychedelic drugs, often cannot be readily distinguished from reality. People who consume a high recreational dose can possibly find themselves in a hallucination which places them in a familiar situation with people and friends and rooms they know, while in reality being in a totally different setting. Inexperienced users of hallucinogens are liable to panic. Many users report a side effect profile consistent with tropane glycoalkaloidal poisoning. This is due to antagonism of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors in both the central and autonomic nervous system, inhibiting various signal transduction pathways. In the CNS, diphenhydramine readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, exerting effects within the visual and auditory cortex, accounting for reported visual and auditory disturbances.

Other CNS effects occur within the limbic system and hippocampus, causing confusion and temporary amnesia. Toxicology also manifests in the autonomic nervous system, primarily at the neuromuscular junction, resulting in ataxia and extrapyramidal side-effects, and at sympathetic post-ganglionic junctions, causing urinary retention, pupil dilation, tachycardia, irregular urination, and dry skin and mucous membranes. Considerable overdosage can lead to myocardial infarction (heart attack), serious ventricular dysrhythmias, coma and death. Such a side-effect profile is thought to give ethanolamine-class antihistamines a relatively low abuse liability. The specific antidote for diphenhydramine poisoning is physostigmine, usually given by IV in hospital.

Would you like me to go on Julia? There are options to give medications for the "symptoms" described that DO NOT have these horrible side effects.

Have you ever taken this sort of stuff in a high dose? Have you ever tripped off your balls for 8 hours straight? Do you know the sorts of things you think, feel and experience? It is not nice, and this is the reason why these medications are being restricted, because they can kill, and they can give you severe brain damage.

 

[2020hindsight]

*went to Albania to fight with the Kosovot Liberation Army,

lol, so did NATO m8

 

[Julia]

Oooo, I would hate to be a child of yours with a cough Julia.

The fact that they cannot say how much they gave him, leads me to suspect that they were feeding him this while the final negotiations were underway. It's really not that hard a thing to do. And as was said, this stuff isn't prescribed by GI docs... for obvious reasons.

Diphenhydramine:

Would you like me to go on Julia? There are options to give medications for the "symptoms" described that DO NOT have these horrible side effects.

Have you ever taken this sort of stuff in a high dose? Have you ever tripped off your balls for 8 hours straight? Do you know the sorts of things you think, feel and experience? It is not nice, and this is the reason why these medications are being restricted, because they can kill, and they can give you severe brain damage.

No, I've never taken it. The point is, Chops, that neither you nor I have any idea about what quantity he was given. I would assume a therapeutic dose, and you would assume an overdose. If one of the possible side effects of the drug can be hallucinations, that doesn't classify it as primarily an hallucinogen. You have a point, I have a point, not much point in going on about it further.

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

. I would assume a therapeutic dose, and you would assume an overdose. .

cmon....a therapeutic dose!.

Maybe DH just pleaded guilty because the carrot dangled was more appealing than if it was removed,

Its not as if he would have held much hope in any form of justice being afforded him by the US Military!...they would have been busy covering thier backsides with lies/fabrications.....bending any possability of a fair trial for the poor bugger.

 

[chops_a_must]

No, I've never taken it. The point is, Chops, that neither you nor I have any idea about what quantity he was given. I would assume a therapeutic dose, and you would assume an overdose. If one of the possible side effects of the drug can be hallucinations, that doesn't classify it as primarily an hallucinogen. You have a point, I have a point, not much point in going on about it further.

Lol! Keep digging!

The general group of pharmacological agents commonly known as hallucinogens can be divided into three broad categories: psychedelics, dissociatives, and deliriants.

The deliriants (or anticholinergics) are a special class of dissociative which are antagonists for the acetylcholine receptors (unlike muscarine and nicotine which are agonists of these receptors). Deliriants are considered to be true hallucinogens as users will have conversations with people who aren't there, or become angry with a 'person' mimicking their actions, not realizing it is their own reflection in a mirror (which could be dangerous if they became aggressive towards a glass mirror). While the regular dissociatives can produce effects similar to lucid dreaming (where one is consciously aware they are dreaming), the deliriants have effects akin to sleepwalking (where one doesn't remember what transpired during the experience).

Included in this group are such plants as deadly nightshade, mandrake, henbane and datura, as well as a number of pharmaceutical drugs when taken in very high doses such as the antihistamine diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and the antiemetic dimenhydrinate (Dramamine or Gravol).

In addition to the danger of being far more "out of it" than with other drugs, and retaining a truly fragmented dissociation from regular consciousness without being immobilized, the anticholinergics are toxic, can cause death due to overdose, and also include a number of uncomfortable side effects. These side effects include dehydration and mydriasis.

It can't be primarily classified as an halucinogen, as then it would not legally be able to be sold. But chemically, it is classed in the group.

IFF he was given the proper dose, why haven't they disclosed that information? These are pretty obvious techniques. Ever heard of "truth serum"? Over time, substances such as these have been used to interrogate. I suggest this time was no different.

 

[greggy]

I reckon David Hicks will be back here just before the election. His delay in being tried, over 5 years, was fast becoming a growing problem for the Howard Govt. Lets hope that in the future if a similar situation occurs that the Govt takes action more quickly on the issue as it did for the now convicted drug smuggler, Miss Corby.

 

[bingk6]

I am curious as to the level of comprehension of those that support the US cause.
Charles, do take care to read what I post, and not choose words that suit your cause: Lest I accuse you of not being too bright.
I suspect very few actually realise that Hicks has only pleaded guilty to one of the charges at this point in time.
And if anyone cared to read the charge sheet, they would realise Hicks' ability to defend that charge would be extremely tenuous.
As for those that think the trial process is fair, read what the civilian lawyers had to say - those that were not allowed to represent Hicks after they were removed yesterday from the case. Yet another refused to sign the "blank cheque" of court regulations that were yet to be promulgated thereby removing himself from Hicks' representation.
Not too much reporting of these matters as the "guilty" plea has ruled the airwaves.
After 5 years in the conditions Hicks' has suffered it's amazing he hasn't owned up to assassinating President Kennedy!

Totally agree with this.

After 5 years locked up in solitary confinement for up to 22 hours everyday, it is a miracle that he has not gone completely bonkers. This military trial has been setup to bring about a conviction, why ?, because the US and AUS govts would both look foolish if the guilty verdict was not forthcoming after locking the guy up for 5 years without charge. So, irrespective of whether Hicks is guilty or not, it ultimately boiled down to 2 choices, plead guilty and we'll make it easier for you to get out, or plead innocent and we'll fight this all the way, with appeals upon appeals, which could potentially drag it out for another 5 years.

Faced with these options, what would you expect Hicks to do ?? Off course, he'll plead guilty just to get the F out of there, and I don't believe anybody could blame him either.

The sad thing is our PM, with his legal background, refuses see the situation for what it is (He's bright enough to see it for what it is, but is just unwilling to bring himself to say so). As far as he is concerned, the trial is fair and since Hicks confessed, he must be guilty, so the Aust govt's position is correct all along. What can you say, It would be a real tragedy if this govt manages to extract some political mileage from this disgraceful episode. Can't wait for the next federal election to throw our spineless govt out.

 

[bel532]

I can't wait for people to comprehend that the Western World is fighting an adversary that is committed to nothing less than its total destruction. Hicks is a part, albeit a small part, of their aim to destroy the freedom and liberty enjoyed by Western democracies.

Reminds me of all those 'do gooders' (maybe sympathisers might be a more apt description) who couldn't or refused to see the 'true' face of Facism prior to WW11 or the true face of totalitarian Communism.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

 

[wayneL]

I can't wait for people to comprehend that the Western World is fighting an adversary that is committed to nothing less than its total destruction. Hicks is a part, albeit a small part, of their aim to destroy the freedom and liberty enjoyed by Western democracies.

Reminds me of all those 'do gooders' (maybe sympathisers might be a more apt description) who couldn't or refused to see the 'true' face of Facism prior to WW11 or the true face of totalitarian Communism.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

Go back to circa 1900 and start reading about ME history from then on.

Yes, we have a problem now with Islamists. But there are reasons why this is happening.

Cause ===>>>> Effect

 

[bingk6]

Hicks is a part, albeit a small part, of their aim to destroy the freedom and liberty enjoyed by Western democracies.

Whoa! how do you know that? I certainly hope that you didn't reach that conclusion by him pleading guilty . The reality is that this entire exercise was NOT designed to find the truth and that is where the problem lies.

Off course, if he was found guilty by a fair and proper trial - throw the book at him and nobody would complain. It just seems to me that he took the path of least resistance - which is understandable under the circumstances. All that anybody wants is the truth and for justice to be served. Right now, we will never really know whether he is really guilty or not.

With regards to the islamic issues, off course there are problems there, but we are discussing specifically Hick's trial.

Just my

 

[2020hindsight]

Reminds me of all those 'do gooders' (maybe sympathisers might be a more apt description) who couldn't or refused to see the 'true' face of Facism prior to WW11 or the true face of totalitarian Communism. "There are none so blind as those who will not see"

bel , 1. What would be your opinion of someone who went to Spain to fight Fascsm in the 30s? (eg Orwell) - presumably you'd be totally behind them? Fits right in there with your post I would have thought .

2. What would be your opinion of someone who went to Kosovo to fight with KLA against ethnic cleansing (beside NATO) ? You say below that when Hicks did this, he deserves all he gets. (you brought up KLA after all). Is there a contradiction here?

Ever considered that this matter is not as black and white as you imply - especially in 1999 - 2000 when the battle lines hadn't been drawn as clearly as they have now. ?

PS I don't think anyone has any problem with reasonable laws against terrorism (Aussie style, possibly even mainland USA style - but not Guantanamo). But at least that won't be charges based on retrospective law (as Hicks got).

PS Hicks might meet you one day and ask "when the moslems in Bosnia and Kosovo were being slaughtered, was it that you didnt want to see, or couldnt see?"

 

[wayneL]

bel , 1. What would be your opinion of someone who went to Spain to fight Fascsm in the 30s? (eg Orwell) - presumably you'd be totally behind them? Fits right in there with your post I would have thought .

2. What would be your opinion of someone who went to Kosovo to fight with KLA against ethnic cleansing (beside NATO) ? You say below that when Hicks did this, he deserves all he gets. (you brought up KLA after all). Is there a contradiction here?

Ever considered that this matter is not as black and white as you imply - especially in 1999 - 2000 when the battle lines hadn't been drawn as clearly as they have now. ?

Ah go easy on Bel, 2020. Clearly he/she is the victim here...

...of propaganda.

 

[2020hindsight]

propaganda.?

bel, speaking of propaganda, back there in #365 and #369 I posted some Wikipedia stuff on Orwell.
He's kinda relevant to your post because, after he'd been around a bit,
a) he strongly disliked fascism (fascist bullet through his neck)
b) he strongly disliked communism ("Animal Farm"), and
c) he particularly didnt like "the thought police" from the "ministry of truth" ("Nineteen eight four") - based on his WWII experiences as a professional spin doctor with the military.

#365 and #369 , Another phrase is 'Big Brother', or 'Big Brother is watching you'. Today, security cameras are often thought to be modern society's big brother. The current television reality show Big Brother carries that title because of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

The phrase 'thought police' is also derived from Nineteen Eighty-Four, and might be used to refer to any alleged violation of the right to the free expression of opinion. It is particularly used in contexts where free expression is proclaimed and expected to exist.

Variations of the slogan "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", from Animal Farm, are sometimes used to satirise situations where equality exists in theory and rhetoric but not in practice. For example, an allegation that rich people are treated more leniently by the courts despite legal equality before the law might be summarised as "all criminals are equal, but some are more equal than others". This appears to echo the phrase Primus inter pares - the Latin for "First Among Equals", which is usually applied to the head of a democratic state.

"all criminals are equal, but some are more equal than others" - yep - poms worse than Hicks are free today and have been for years

 

[nomore4s]

What really annoys me about this whole matter is that if an American citizen was treated this way by anyone else they would be crying blue murder, but its alright for them to do what they want in "the war against terror".

 

[moXJO]

halucinogens, lies/fabrications keep flogging that dead horse.You know after kosovo he allegedly joined lashka-e-toiba in kashmir and fired upon Indian soldiers in 2000.The list goes on....
cuddly factor gone

 

[wayneL]

halucinogens, lies/fabrications keep flogging that dead horse.You know after kosovo he allegedly joined lashka-e-toiba in kashmir and fired upon Indian soldiers in 2000.The list goes on....
cuddly factor gone

Mo,

You are mixing up the issues here, as are many. The issue is of a fair trial.

This latest trial, 5 YEARS late and much alleged mistreatment later. is not a FAIR trial.

If found guilty of something (and not something trumped up especially for the occasion) deal with him accordingly.

If not, let the poor bastid go.

That is the issue and it's as simple as that.

 

[2020hindsight]

halucinogens, lies/fabrications keep flogging that dead horse.You know after kosovo he allegedly joined lashka-e-toiba in kashmir and fired upon Indian soldiers in 2000.The list goes on....
cuddly factor gone

Mox, "poms worse than Hicks are free today and have been for years." is that a lie?. Seems that when we inherited the British legal system, and allegedly our sense of justice, the bits about retrospective law and habeus corpus went straight over most of our heads.

 

[rederob]

halucinogens, lies/fabrications keep flogging that dead horse.You know after kosovo he allegedly joined lashka-e-toiba in kashmir and fired upon Indian soldiers in 2000.The list goes on....
cuddly factor gone

Irrespective of what Hicks did or did not do, the "justice" applied to his case is unique, and continues to be developed as the Guantanamo detainees get their day in court.

The simple test everyone can apply is if they would be happy to subject themselves to the court system that Hicks' is presently subject to, should they be subject to any allegation they wish to defend.

By the way, if you are wondering if you would be granted an appeal, should the verdict fall the wrong way, join the queue.

 

[bel532]

Surely you can't expect me to place Hicks in the same light as those who fought against Facism in the Spanish Civil War? Are you really that naive, or is this just your method of spitting out anti-Western propaganda?

Hicks was in Kosovo because he believed in all the propaganda thrust into his head by the extreme Muslim movement. His admiration of Bin Laden and all that he stands for explains Hicks' hatred of Western society and its Liberal Democratic values.

He was no hero in Kosovo or anywhere else for that matter.

We have a duty to our children and future generations to ensure that all those who wish to thrust their ideological, woman hating, extreme strict religious habits on our society are made to understand that this behaviour is not acceptable.

 

[chops_a_must]

We have a duty to our children and future generations to ensure that all those who wish to thrust their ideological, woman hating, extreme strict religious habits on our society are made to understand that this behaviour is not acceptable.

Ok. Why is Fred Nile not in jail then?