David Hicks protests

rederob · 18 February 2007

Freeballinginawetsuit said:
WTF.......they are one in the same, if used in the context of youre arguement.

And 'Justice' is entirely dependant on the origin of historical viewpoint. I'm sure western history varies greatly over the eastern version.....and others.

Freebies
I am not following your train of thought.
Although there is a societal context to justice, there are also moral and philosophical contexts.
I prefer to use these latter as societies can justify and have "justified" killing - such as infanticide among Eskimos - whereas to most that is anathema.
The concept of justice in application is relatively straightforward.
It requires reasonable people to treat others fairly.
The American justice system enshrines these principles.
But the war on terror is above the law because, because...
because it has to be!
As Garpal says, "get real!"

rederob · 18 February 2007

wayneL said:
Red,
In matters of investing we are in sharp contrast with each other. .........
Cheers

I'm sure you meant "trading".
It's a blunt comparison.
Although I assume we both prophet handsomely .

Freeballinginawetsuit · 18 February 2007

Red,

I would prefer to fight for Justice and against Injustice. IMO they are one in the same.

Obviously in the case of Hicks our Government and Bush believe they are fighting a just cause, most causes fought over are justified 'in the eye of the beholder'. I do not share the same opinion as Howard.

At the moment the voice of opinion of our democracy is not enough to convince our elected leader, Justice is not being served for Hick's. Tragic

So yes indeed we all need to get real and let our elected leader know the majority believes we do not share his view of 'Justice', for David Hicks.

rederob · 18 February 2007

Freebies
Thanks.
I guess the context in which I have used "justice" relates to Hicks' treatment after capture.
The issue of whether the/any war was "just" is quite separate.

I listened briefly to Costello this morning, being interviewed by Bongiorno.
Costello, a barrister, put the case that it was pretty straightforward and along the lines of Garpal's argument. That would contradict the need to be imprisoned for 5 years without charge, without access to lawyers, and in solitary confinement.

Just as Howard won't admit he's been wrong about WMD (no "evidence", just the best information at the time), he can't afford to bring Hicks home because it will show him to be weak on terror, or simply weak.

Maybe that's now for the best. Hicks is more likely to be a danger to society due to his treatment at the hands of his jailers than he ever was in Afghanistan.

Kauri · 18 February 2007

It seems that public opinion is growing against the treatment (just or unjust) of Hicks, in my opinion it has the potential to become a major election issue. I wonder how the government will manage to backpeddle and save face at the same time if it threatens their election chances? If they indeed backpeddle I imagine it will be sooner rather than later. I expect some major spin and maybe a few minor concessions soon.

BIG BWACULL · 18 February 2007

Hicks to be sent home by end of year apparently and serve his sentence here if found guilty, Bout f$%$ time. Probly home before the elections, that would be good timing. Wouldnt count on it though.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hicks-to-be-home-by-year-end/2007/02/18/1171733599832.html

greggy · 19 February 2007

BIG BWACULL said:
Hicks to be sent home by end of year apparently and serve his sentence here if found guilty, Bout f$%$ time. Probly home before the elections, that would be good timing. Wouldnt count on it though.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hicks-to-be-home-by-year-end/2007/02/18/1171733599832.html

Good timing on the part of the fed govt if they bring Hicks home before the next election. The govt can then concentrate on putting out other bush fires.

2020hindsight · 20 February 2007

The President Versus David Hicks , Time: Tuesday, February 20, 10:00 PM (- 11.30pm) , Channel: SBS ,
Duration: 90 minutes , Rating: M , Type: Documentary

In January 2002, David Hicks was picked up in Afghanistan by the Northern Alliance and handed over to the US military. He was taken to the American Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for interrogation and has been held there in a small cage ever since. President Bush has labelled him an "unlawful combatant". This means that he is allowed none of the rights of ordinary prisoners of war. No charges have been laid against him and only recently has he been given access to a lawyer. How did a 26-year-old, former stockman from Adelaide, Australia, end up as a Taliban fighter? This program follows the journey made by Terry Hicks, David's father, who has never before travelled outside Australia, as he traces his son's footsteps in an attempt to understand what has happened to him.

Bit of background info - finishes damned late, but that's what video recorders are for I guess.
(hopefully better than the recent doco on Twin Towers which was mainly trying to sell software for skyscraper fire control systems)

billhill · 20 February 2007

Anyone watch insight on sbs. Very interesting and i think it will make big news in the next couple of days. The government is looking on very shaky ground on this issue.

Kauri · 20 February 2007

billhill said:
Anyone watch insight on sbs. Very interesting and i think it will make big news in the next couple of days. The government is looking on very shaky ground on this issue.

Was worth it just to see a real interviewer at work, i.e pulling up a pollie mid-waffle and re-asking the question that they were trying to avoid.

2020hindsight · 20 February 2007

billhill said:
Anyone watch insight on sbs. Very interesting and i think it will make big news in the next couple of days. The government is looking on very shaky ground on this issue.

ditto with "The president versus David Hicks."

1. I am reminded of the fact that the only people to withstand brainwashing in Korea were the captured moslems (much better "stayers" than the captured Americans).
2. When you see the commander of Guantanamo, you see the mechanical military brain at work. - o boy. Refusing to let him be interviewed because they were continuing to "interrogate" him after (then only) 18 months. Simply another exercise is "bastardry", as per recent headlines.
3. the Northern Alliance were apparently paid $15K (USD? AUD?) to hand over Hicks - makes the division between combatants and mercenary a bit murky I would have thought .
4. how brave is terry hicks? going into areas of Afghanistan where police have been ambushed - sheesh
5. how shallow is bush? - such horrible distortions of the facts.
6. how interesting were david hick's letters? - going to Kosovo to help to prevent some of the slaughter (then - and the UN finally caught up with the sentiment - sheesh)
etc etc .

Garpal Gumnut · 21 February 2007

2020hindsight said:
ditto with "The president versus David Hicks."

1. I am reminded of the fact that the only people to withstand brainwashing in Korea were the captured moslems (much better "stayers" than the captured Americans).
2. When you see the commander of Guantanamo, you see the mechanical military brain at work. - o boy. Refusing to let him be interviewed because they were continuing to "interrogate" him after (then only) 18 months. Simply another exercise is "bastardry", as per recent headlines.
3. the Northern Alliance were apparently paid $15K (USD? AUD?) to hand over Hicks - makes the division between combatants and mercenary a bit murky I would have thought .
4. how brave is terry hicks? going into areas of Afghanistan where police have been ambushed - sheesh
5. how shallow is bush? - such horrible distortions of the facts.
6. how interesting were david hick's letters? - going to Kosovo to help to prevent some of the slaughter (then - and the UN finally caught up with the sentiment - sheesh)
etc etc .

Dear 2020,

Just a few questions and comments on your six list.

1. Please present some evidence for this statement, I'm unable to on some searching of the literature.
2. Your opinion, acceptable as an opinion.
3. Again proof, a murky place where allegiances change daily. Also is it relevant?
4. An opinion, could be just , how shall I say it, " subject emotionally involved"
5. An opinion, could be just , how shall I say it, " subject intellectually challenged"
6. No comment except. Tooth fairy stuff.

Garpal

rederob · 21 February 2007

Garpal
It's always easier to criticise than act.
Given your slant towards Hicks not being "innocent", if he were tomorrow brought to Australia, can you tell us what charges he would most likely be charged with (by the Australian Government {who seem happy for the US to try him for whatever charges they see fit}).
Just curious.

Garpal Gumnut · 21 February 2007

rederob said:
Garpal
It's always easier to criticise than act.
Given your slant towards Hicks not being "innocent", if he were tomorrow brought to Australia, can you tell us what charges he would most likely be charged with (by the Australian Government {who seem happy for the US to try him for whatever charges they see fit}).
Just curious.

Dear rederob,

Please do not shout.

I do not know whether David Hicks is innocent or not.

He is awaiting trial.

Trials are not fair, never are.

He doesn't sound like the brightest star in the sky.

These guys tend to get treated worse by the "system"

His big error, which was of his own making, although he probably never realised the consequences, was, to engage in military or quasi military action when the US was under extreme threat.

These things happen.

I've got no problem with you being active in his defence, it could happen to one of my kids, however, Australians will be less likely as a result of this to align themselves with potential enemies of our democratic system.

Now this may not sit well with you, but it is a fact and probably the reason why DH has been hung out on a limb for so long.

Continue to defend him, but listen to the other side.

Garpal

rederob · 21 February 2007

Garpal
I simply would like to know what he could possibly be charged with if he were in Australia tomorrow.
If Australia is to ally itself with a nation that concocts a justice system to suits its own ends, and then lets its own citizens suffer consequences it would not condone at home, it's a pretty sad state of affairs.
As to listening "to the other side", I have, for many years.
The case against Hicks is wafer thin at best, and constructed on evidence that no respectable court in the world would hear.
I know the law often appears unjust. However, it is intrinsically "fair". The "system" you speak of normally has checks and balances that allow the truth to win out, where the burden of evidence suggests an outcome that reasonable people could not doubt.
Finally, to the best of our present knowledge, Hicks was not being groomed to war against the West but, instead, against the Indian presence in Kashmir.
To this latter end the US has recently, again, tried to stir the Indian government to investigate Hicks' possible involvement in any border skirmishes.
There is now a weight of opinion that Hicks has been too long jailed without charge. What a shame that it has taken 5 years for so many to wake up to this injustice. What a greater shame that our government remains blind to this injustice.
So when you suggest something "may not sit well" with me, it is the veriness of being Australian and what it stands for today under our present government.

2020hindsight · 21 February 2007

Garpal Gumnut said:
Just a few questions and comments on your six list.
1. Please present some evidence for this statement, I'm unable to on some searching of the literature.
terry hicks courage etc

garpal,
1. something I was taught during officer training for aust army
2. as for Terry Hicks courage ... obviously you didnt see the SBS footage

Garpal Gumnut · 21 February 2007

rederob said:
Garpal
I simply would like to know what he could possibly be charged with if he were in Australia tomorrow.
If Australia is to ally itself with a nation that concocts a justice system to suits its own ends, and then lets its own citizens suffer consequences it would not condone at home, it's a pretty sad state of affairs.
As to listening "to the other side", I have, for many years.
The case against Hicks is wafer thin at best, and constructed on evidence that no respectable court in the world would hear.
I know the law often appears unjust. However, it is intrinsically "fair". The "system" you speak of normally has checks and balances that allow the truth to win out, where the burden of evidence suggests an outcome that reasonable people could not doubt.
Finally, to the best of our present knowledge, Hicks was not being groomed to war against the West but, instead, against the Indian presence in Kashmir.
To this latter end the US has recently, again, tried to stir the Indian government to investigate Hicks' possible involvement in any border skirmishes.
There is now a weight of opinion that Hicks has been too long jailed without charge. What a shame that it has taken 5 years for so many to wake up to this injustice. What a greater shame that our government remains blind to this injustice.
So when you suggest something "may not sit well" with me, it is the veriness of being Australian and what it stands for today under our present government.

dear rederob,

Agree,

Lets get a common Australian fair go judgement going on David Hicks, without assuming guilt or innocence. Lets leave it to the courts. U and I can argue for decades but a court can make a decision.

Garpal

2020hindsight · 22 February 2007

garpal
my turn to ask you a question..what 's your opinion of the slaughter of muslims in Bosnia ..and for that matter Kosovo situation. Hicks went to help the KLA. (when his step mum read that in a letter, she thought he'd joined an airline )As his father says, he was never a terrorist, there or in Afghanistan. Maybe a soldier, but how the heck is he a terrorist (who attacks non-combatants).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
Most Albanians saw the KLA as legitimate "freedom fighters" whilst the Yugoslav government called them terrorists attacking police and (Serbian) civilians. Although the US envoy Robert Gelbard referred to the KLA as terrorists, he later admitted that they were never legally classified as a terrorist organisation by the US government. Shortly after making his claims that the KLA were terrorists, Robert Gelbard was removed from his poisition as special envoy to Kosovo.

It is widely believed that the KLA received financial and material support from the Kosovo Albanian diaspora in Europe and elsewhere. The KLA also received financial aid from the Albanian mafia.[9] Bujar Bukoshi, shadow Prime Minister in exile (in ZÃ¼rich, Switzerland), created a group called FARK (Armed Forces of the Republic of Kosova) which was reported to have been disbanded and absorbed by the KLA in 1998. The response of outside powers was ambivalent: in February 1998, the United States' Special Representative to Yugoslavia, Robert Gelbard, denounced the KLA as a terrorist organization but neither the United States nor most other powers made any serious effort to stop money or weapons being channeled into Kosovo.... etc

seems that even the USA sometimes has trouble with the definition of "terrorist"

happytown · 22 February 2007

For those interested, the above-mentioned insight program featuring the american prosecution and defence as well as ruddock, hick's father and stepmother and some ex-guantanamo detainees is to be repeated friday night 7.30 sbs and you're right, jennie brockie knows how to pin down all those trained in the dark art of sophistry.

cheers

2020hindsight · 22 February 2007

happytown said:
For those interested, the above-mentioned insight program ... is to be repeated friday night 7.30 sbs

Ripper, I missed it - hopefully they repeat "Hicks vs the President" as well.

David Hicks protests

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