David Hicks protests

[wayneL]

Dear waynwL

Agree that I get most of my news from Rupert, as you do, otherwise as we both do from Jamie or KerryK., so lets not get precious about origins of knowledge. Even though I live in a regional area I can access al jazeera, jerusalem post, the guardian ( with which I'm sure you have some acquantaince), the international guardian which a leftie mate of mine passes on to me in exchange for Quadrant,(puts little finger in mouth like mini me).

Lets all grow up wayneL,

We are all in deep trouble at present. right and Left mean nought. whether you believe in what god seems to matter more. Lets try and seek a way through all this. Demonising Bush seems counter-intiuitive to defending Islamic fascists awaiting trial in a system they deny their enemies.

Garpal

Yes we are in trouble.

But to find the source of the trouble we must look further into history than September 11 2001. Western propaganda would have it that the Islamists hate the west because they hate our freedom. This is perhaps the most disingenuous assertion ever uttered in international politics. It absolutely insults the intelligence.

I submit that the source of this hatred is the foreign policies of initially the UK, and finally the USA.

Clue - start researching from circa 1948.

We have been brought up in the west with the concept that we are the good guys, we wear the white hat, we saved to world from fascism and Japanese imperialism. But let me tell you we have not done the right thing in the middle east and it is coming back to bite us.

Cheers

PS Re the condescension: I'll cop the return of serve, but subtle is better.

 

[2020hindsight]

start researching from circa 1948.

gotta feeling the fact that UK and France renigged on promises made by Florence of Arabia after WWI didnt set up a good start to the last 100 years.

speaking of religious wars, you could go back to the mad crusading dudes going back to the 11th century -sanctioned by the pope of course - not that I suggest we try to answer for their actions - would be difficult.

Equally, and conversely, there's no way you can justify Osama BL targetting Australia because of our UN sanctioned role in East Timor. The man just doesn't think straight.

http://www.etan.org/estafeta/99/autumn/untakes.htm
United Nations Takes Over East Timor, Belatedly and Reluctantly
by Charles Scheiner
In 1975, the United Nations Security Council unanimously recognized the inalienable right of the people of East Timor to self-determination and called on Indonesia to withdraw all its forces from the territory without delay. But it took almost 24 years - during which time the East Timor suffered unimaginable horrors - before the international community took effective action to implement that resolution.

The UN took one step to address the growing climate of fear - they proclaimed, with posters and banners, that "No matter what the outcome on August 30th, UNAMET will NOT leave after the consultation." ....
....Consultation Day was exhilarating, as 98.6% of the voters braved threats to cast their ballots, many arriving before dawn. The vote stands as a monument to the dedication of UNAMET personnel and the incredible courage of the East Timorese people, but the disaster which followed was predictable and preventable... etc

you know the rest.. slaughter on a mass scale - UN powerless ( bit like Rwanda really).
We had the choice of doing what Whitlam did and turn a blind eye as Indon invaded - or do what Howard did - with UN backing - and reestablish peace. On that occasion we acted admirably imo.

But ...What we did in Iraq didn't have UN backing, and sadly it is much harder to defend our actions there to those who challenge us.
and in general .. we gain nothing by becoming extremists ourselves.

Incidentally , re current Afghanistan.. Security Council report on its mission to Afghanistan, November 2006

http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusRel1.asp? infocusID=16&Body=Afghanistan
Security Council, stresses need for security, but remains optimistic
The mission found that the spread of insurgency, and terrorist activity by the Taliban, Al-Qaida and other extremist groups... pose a grave threat to reconstruction and nation-building... However, the mission is convinced that the Government of Afghanistan and the international community have established a sound strategy to overcome these challenges.

 

[wayneL]

gotta feeling the fact that UK and France renigged on promises made by Florence of Arabia after WWI didnt set up a good start to the last 100 years.

Indeed. Poor old Thomas was gutted about the the whole affair too, apparently.

I think (and it's a guess) they would have gotten over that if not for the post WWII transgressions.

It's a schmozzle it is.

 

[greggy]

I wonder if anyone else remembers hearing this speech by Mandela, 30 Jan 2003 - BEFORE the latest war ...(the war started March 18 , 2003) - claiming Bush had no foresight, and would destroy the UN.
Basically he had no major problem with actions in Afghanistan, but remained convinced that without UN backing, Iraq was a disaster waiting to happen.





Finally some quotes

Nelson Mandela was a fine South African President and is a good judge. I agree with the sentiments expressed.

 

[porkpie324]

Just a quick message for all the "flakey touchy" poor muslim terrorists supporters. Its fortunate that we have a PM who has his feet on the ground and is not afraid to make a stand against terrorists.
And remember Docj, what about all peoples children killed or maimed in Madrid, what have you got to say to them, also my children were brought up to be decent citizens with good values encouraged.porkpie

 

[Happy]

From ABC, February 16, 2007

US ALLEGES HICKS COLLECTED EMBASSY INTELLIGENCE

By Kim Landers

The United States military has released details of its new case against Australian Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks.
Hicks is facing charges of providing material support for terrorism and attempted murder, and now the US military has released charge sheets backing up that case.
While not much has changed, there are new details about an advanced Al Qaeda course Hicks allegedly took part in during August 2001.

He allegedly personally collected intelligence on the US Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, and was trained in covert photography, the use of dead drops and the use of disguises.
The charge sheet also alleges Hicks later armed himself with 300 rounds of ammunition as he prepared to fight against coalition forces at the Kandahar airport.

Hicks, originally from Adelaide, has been held at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba since 2002.
The convert to Islam was captured in Afghanistan, where he allegedly fought alongside the ruling Taliban against US-led forces, who invaded after the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001.

Maybe truth will come out one day.

 

[doctorj]

And remember Docj, what about all peoples children killed or maimed in Madrid, what have you got to say to them

I say to them that there children were taken from them unjustly, but that doesn't warrant someone else's child being held, illegally, with out trial forever and a day.

also my children were brought up to be decent citizens with good values encouraged.

Are these the same 'good values' you surrender so quickly? Or do justice, free speech and even the Geneva Convention not rate in your list of 'good values'?

The point is, no one will ever know if Hicks has been raised with similar "good values". The media are happy to let him hang on the basis of a single photo. And people like yourselves are happy to swallow it with the belief that it "won't happen to them" and the ends will surely justify the means.

The "terrorists" have already won. The "terrorists" have fundamentally changed our way of life.

 

[porkpie324]

Docj, take your out of the sand, watch the news today,it says it all. The Geneva convention, what rubbish you talk how many muslim terrorists consider it when they kill on video or bomb innocent people. porkpie

 

[chops_a_must]

Docj, take your out of the sand, watch the news today,it says it all. The Geneva convention, what rubbish you talk how many muslim terrorists consider it when they kill on video or bomb innocent people. porkpie

Yep. All scouts are now terrorists as well. Gotcha.

 

[doctorj]

Docj, take your out of the sand, watch the news today,it says it all. The Geneva convention, what rubbish you talk how many muslim terrorists consider it when they kill on video or bomb innocent people. porkpie

So what you're talking is an eye for an eye? The only thing that distinguishes us from the terrorism is that we don't resort to violence to make ourselves heard, we don't kill/maime innocent people. And you're talking about giving it all away.

So what about killing a few innocent rag-heads as long as we get one or two terrorists along the way huh?

I don't think so! Are these the same morals you taught your children?

 

[moXJO]

The point is, no one will ever know if Hicks has been raised with similar "good values". The media are happy to let him hang on the basis of a single photo. And people like yourselves are happy to swallow it with the belief that it "won't happen to them" and the ends will surely justify the means.

The "terrorists" have already won. The "terrorists" have fundamentally changed our way of life.

I thought prior to all this hicks had a rap sheet on stealing cars and being a druggie?.Then he went off to train with the K.L.A and then on to Afghanistan.Who knows what he did in between.The way some of you carry on you would think he was a a tourist.

Yes I get it right to a trial and the whole he's been in their 5 years and they cant come up with a charge.Well I doubt they would hold him for 5 years without reason.And Im sure Jihad jack even mentioned he met him at one of the camps.

He might be a good bloke but he got caught chasing warzones.Like I said before he is lucky to still be breathing.

 

[greggy]

Yep. All scouts are now terrorists as well. Gotcha.

Hi Chops a must,

I better keep a close eye on my nephew cause he's a scout!! But there again I will probably referred to as a terrorist as well in some extreme right-wing quarters for supporting a fair trial for David Hicks.

 

[wayneL]

Just a quick message for all the "flakey touchy" poor muslim terrorists supporters. Its fortunate that we have a PM who has his feet on the ground and is not afraid to make a stand against terrorists.
And remember Docj, what about all peoples children killed or maimed in Madrid, what have you got to say to them, also my children were brought up to be decent citizens with good values encouraged.porkpie

You appear to suffer the delusion that all Muslims are terrorists.

If Hicks is guilty of terrorism, then try him. If found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, punish him according to law. But FFS try him!

This is the crux of peoples argument against Johnny Rotten is that he is supporting the detention without trial of one of our citizens by another nation. Johnny may have his feet on the the ground, but most of his body is on the ground in a wobbling lump as well because he has no backbone.

While you are thinking of peoples children maimed or killed in Madrid, do you not think of the vastly greater number of children maimed or killed in Iraq. There surely must be a great number amongst the estimated 650,000 civilians killed.

I find that when people indulge in non sequitur when their argument is in trouble. Your post contains at least three.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Dear wayneL

There are 2 ways of looking at this guy.

Yours: He is accused of a crime, been arrested by the Americans and being denied due process i.e. a speedy trial with fairness and access to defence lawyers. Similar to any suspect in Australia facing major charges, which can btw take 2-3 years to come to trial as evidence and defence material is collected

Mine: He is an irrregular combatant, a bit like the overpaid ex army "security people" presently working for multinationals in Iraq, or the pea brained religious suicide bombers presently murdering hundreds of thousands in Iraq. He got caught. He takes his medicine. Life is not fair.

None of us are going to change our minds on this.

The victors will write the history and I hope it isn't the suicide bombers who do so.

Garpal

 

[porkpie324]

If wayne you care to read my post's correctly i have never said that all muslims are terrorists, it just so happens that the terror action during the last few yeares have been committed by muslims,. If you care to read my posts in more detail, I firmly believe we need to take strong action in protecting ourselves. If that means locking hicks up for good then so be it, we just cannot afford the risk of having loose canons such as hicks free on society.porkpie

 

[doctorj]

If that means locking hicks up for good then so be it

If Hicks has commited a crime (ie. broken a law) and it's proven in a free and fair court, then I agree.

we just cannot afford the risk of having loose canons such as hicks free on society.

How do we know if he is a "loose cannon" until he's charged with something and fairly convicted?

 

[wayneL]

If wayne you care to read my post's correctly i have never said that all muslims are terrorists, it just so happens that the terror action during the last few yeares have been committed by muslims,. If you care to read my posts in more detail, I firmly believe we need to take strong action in protecting ourselves. If that means locking hicks up for good then so be it, we just cannot afford the risk of having loose canons such as hicks free on society.porkpie

I have no problem with that. But try him, find him guilty or innocent and deal with him accordingly. If he is found to be a clear and present danger to innocent folk, lock him up, if not, let him go.

This detention without trial is BS.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Dear wayneL

There are 2 ways of looking at this guy.

Yours: He is accused of a crime, been arrested by the Americans and being denied due process i.e. a speedy trial with fairness and access to defence lawyers. Similar to any suspect in Australia facing major charges, which can btw take 2-3 years to come to trial as evidence and defence material is collected

Mine: He is an irrregular combatant, a bit like the overpaid ex army "security people" presently working for multinationals in Iraq, or the pea brained religious suicide bombers presently murdering hundreds of thousands in Iraq. He got caught. He takes his medicine. Life is not fair.

None of us are going to change our minds on this.

The victors will write the history and I hope it isn't the suicide bombers who do so.

Garpal

Dear wayneL,

I value your opinion from the other side. Can you comment on this or is it too painful for you??

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

Dear wayneL,

I value your opinion from the other side. Can you comment on this or is it too painful for you??

Garpal

Dear Garpal,

Like I said, condescension is fine. I am prepared to cop as good as I give, but like I said, subtle is better. Yours is rather clumsy and puerile and detracts from your argument. It would also help if the condescension has some sort of basis in fact rather than schoolyard taunts.

You appear to subscribe to the theory that "might is right". However I would have hoped that humankind would have progressed past this rather Neanderthal concept.

A study of history would indicate that this "might is right" philosophy is fraught with danger and doomed to ultimately to fail. It shows that the mighty;

1/ are subject to constant resistance, insurgency, terrorism (choose favourite emotive label).
2/ increasingly prone to morally reprehensible acts in order to maintain their diminishing "might".
3/ eventually become corrupt in mind and spirit, arrogant, complacent, overstetched and/or fatigued, leading to a catastrophic demise.

Yours sincerely,
wayneL

 

[rederob]

porkpie
I guess we need to lock up everyone that has been trained to kill, irrespective of who, where or how.
The statistics on Vietnam vets that inflicted death or harm on their families or themselves is quite frightening!

A natural extension of the principles the US is now practising would allow the Chinese to pay the Taliban in Afghanistan to capture US soldiers (for example), spirit them to North Korea, and charge them for attempted murder etc., on court principles favourable to the Chinese.

Hicks seems to be a silly young man with delusions of doing something great for Allah, but never having the actual opportunity to fire a shot in anger.

Garpal
Hicks was not "caught", he was "bought".
The issue of him "taking his medicine" is relevant on two counts.
First, Hicks needs to have something that warrants treatment. Being "trained to kill" and being in possession of ammunition do appear somewhat weak cases in times of war if one has not killed or used any ammunition!
Secondly, his "medicine" should be something that would be sanctioned by a higher authority as fit for purpose. In this case we are left with an imbecilic Bush who continues to get bad advice and, rather than admit error, would rather "stay the course" in the hope that at some point it turns out to be right.
Is it not curious that Australia is the only Westernised nation that has a prisoner left in Guantanamo Bay? On that count, you need to listen to what Malcolm Fraser had to say today:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...ks-guilt/2007/02/15/1171405368385.html?page=2