David Hicks protests

[Garpal Gumnut]

It may come as a nasty surprise to the "martyrs" when it is revealed WHY these 72 women died virgins...

A very prescient observation. Perhaps misterS you should share your thoughts with the good citizens of Mecca, Medina and adjacent postcodes, though none in NSW, that would be very sinful, marginalising.

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

It may come as a nasty surprise to the "martyrs" when it is revealed WHY these 72 women died virgins...

LOL

 

[mmmmining]

The great religions war is well on its way. Get used to what happened around the world. Fair or unfair, live with it.

The justice is what you have claimed, not want you are judged. Not right? How about you are the only winner?

Looking back the history, good guy and bad guy, they all said that they did the right thing for the world, not for themselves. Eventually, the winner is the good guy, and the loser is .....

 

[misterS]

Not intending to mock genuine believers in a universal, invisible friend. I understand people can't wade through the rushing torrent of discernible facts and logic to reach the spiritual realm - they have to leap straight over if they want to explore, and for the meantime have to accept certain absurd club-membership pre-conditions.

Funny how strange the assertions seem about the rewards on offer, for particular brands, especially when viewed outside their original context. I had a friend who got involved with the Hari Krishna at one time and was told their Buddhust spiel of reincarnation, which I hadn't realised extended to an endless variety of better and worse planets than earth as well as involving consequential reincarnation in various guises. Top of the heap was a planet where everyone smells good. Considered pre-shower, pre-deodorant and pre-privacy this probably seemed simultaneously far-fetched and desirable.

If one is a religiously zealous virgin and a borderline sociopath who has limited life-experience and might have only ever seen his own mother (just the eyes) it probably seems fantastic to imagine possessing any woman, let alone 72 comely virgins.

Re mmmining comment- i agree, with the good vs bad bit. You never hear of anyone doing anything selfless for the common bad do you? So good has that advantage.

Bad is usually a loose conglomeration of selfish people jointly pursuing their own interests, but only for as long as they intersect.

 

[2020hindsight]

The great religions war is well on its way. ... Fair or unfair, live with it. ..

I think that's a bit pessimistic m8. East Timor's problems were arguably religious in origins - Aus did a good job of sorting it out, and still keeping peaceful relations with Indon. Such a mighty job, - if anything we were too slow to act, (imo), but that's another story. Then, Osama BL broadcast that Aus was on the AQ hit list because of our efforts in East Timor.(?). Proves his knowledge of world events, and interpretation thereof, is totally twisted. But don't blame the entire moslem religion - the Indonesian Govt themselves are generally locking up extremists as fast as they find them. (in some cases, I concede, a bit slower than others, with some strange durations of imprisonment).

I think extremists are the new phenomenon, and we shouldn't join their ranks. And we shouldn't give moderate moslims cause to go off that deep end.

 

[misterS]

Indonesia is a good example of a government doing lots to evolve and emerge from the corruption/oppression stage that others are stuck in. Ironically, the unpalatable decisions around some of those involved with the Bali atrocities actually represented a positive sign - the effective independent operation of their judicial system. The "rule of law" replacing a tame judiciary responding to government pressure.

I think their Constitution forbids retroactive laws and as the anti-terrorist laws were not in when the crimes were committed...

Criminal law is enough to punish the people directly responsible but not the organisers. (Even "normal" criminal conspiracy is notoriously difficult to prove) After all, it is the inability of criminal law to cope with these organisations that inspired the creation of the new, specific anti-terrorist laws for the future.

Which also resonates with Hick's situation. The Aust. government doesn't want him brought here because it knows, just like Indonesia, our anti-terrorist laws came in after his "offences", but they can't get past wanting to see him punished (further) however that is achieved. It is funny how he is a "criminal" when inconveniently he can't be charged here. Same as the UK citizens who the UK demanded be repatriated, even knowing there was nothing to charge them with there.

It is awfully cyncial for a government to deny a citizen his government's protection, even if he is not someone a lot of citizens want to extend this basic protection to, unless and until the day the government sees there are more votes in rescuing him than not.

Eventually, broad perceptions of common good and human rights will operate to ultimately overcome the selfish political motive at work at the moment. Admittedly, it's very hard to dispassionately put a "common good" argument when a self-confessed soldier for a self-declared enemy of violent, religious zealots is the case involved. Anyway, while he can't be charged, there are plenty of new control laws to restrict and monitor him when he gets home, and the new laws are ready for the future...

 

[2020hindsight]

Indonesia is a good example of a government doing lots to evolve and emerge from the corruption/oppression stage that others are stuck in. Ironically, the unpalatable decisions around some of those involved with the Bali atrocities actually represented a positive sign - the effective independent operation of their judicial system. The "rule of law" replacing a tame judiciary responding to government pressure. ..

misterS, strange how storm clouds can have silver linings, yes.
great post m8, thanks.
Personally I think the Willie Brigitte case was far more potentially sinister (speaking of "the common bad") than Hicks was ever likely to be. Like a sleeping timebomb waiting for "the message". Hitchcock meets Hannibal Lecter.
And we didn't even know he was here. One of the rare occasions we have to thank the French for something.

 

[misterS]

I wonder if Australia's great ability to turn the children of first generation immigrants into footy-kicking, cricket-loving, life-saving, fair-minded citizens is going to prove our greatest defence and mean it will be mainly "visitors" or pre-programmed, "sleeper" immigrants who pose any risk? The ridgey didge immigrants are usually dead-set rapt to find out what it is like here, especially compared to what they may have fled.

Oddly, for all the historical fear-mongering about Indonesia with 300 million Asians on our doorstep, (funny how living in their own country could be so easily characterised as on "our" doorstep) they have a lot in common with us. For one thing, they are apparently a laid-back, gentle pack of bludgers. Well, we have bludging in common. Someone who teaches English to adults said the Indonesian guys are always laid back and suggesting maybe it is too hot for lessons today or why don't they do this tomorrow, or maybe not at all?

It is pretty reassuring that the Indonesians rounded up those terrorist pricks pretty quick too, they couldn't disappear back into a supportive populace. The terrorists want to destabilise civil society and foment such chaos that their insane solution would somehow seem a preferable alternative and if they have to kill 90% of Muslims to save them, so be it. Reminds me a bit of Hitler-style pathology when he said towards the end that the German race had betrayed him and weren't worthy of what he tried to do for them. Sheesh!

 

[Dextrum]

i am writing this from the cayman islands. in a previous life i was a lawyer. i worked in australia, london and hong kong. ocassionally, the firms i worked for would take pro bono cases.these were situations where they were acting free of charge for persons incarcerated, often for capital crimes where evidence against them was circumstantial at best.

the incarceration of david hicks is an utter travesty. it defies all human rights and breaches international treaties which were passed by democratic countries to protect the freedom and rights of citizens in situations such as this.

the fact that the australian government has not acted to protect the rights of a citizen of this country is not only a disgrace but borders on negligence. It is my sincere hope that when david hicks is freed, an application be made to the International Court of the Hague for a motion censuring the Australian government of the day for what is at its most benign, is a clear case of negligence in failing to uphold the basic rights of one of its citizens. When a government fails to act, the only recourse is to take that government to court and seek a motion of censure and compensation for the individual whose human rights have been ignored.

politicians must be reminded that they are elected by the people not only to run the country but where occasion demands it, to protect the rights of the individuals who make up the population of that country.

one could go on at length on this topic. I sincerely hope that those of you in this forum and elsewhere that read this or other online discussions will not allow your disquiet to fade away, or your anger and indignation to lessen at the failure of this government to take action.

It is always more difficult to protest when life is good than when life is hard but now is the time to take action whether it be by emails. petitions or just bombarding your local member of parliament with messages asking what is being done about the hicks situation...and fight the good fight

 

[porkpie324]

As usual you get some 'flakey touchy' human rights person to come out on the side of the poor muslim terrorist. The government is taking action by way of leaving hicks were he is, which is were he should be for ever until proven beyond all doubt thats its safe to let him loose on society. I'll certainly let my MP no my position, leave hicks where he is.porkpie

 

[Kremmen]

I'll certainly let my MP no my position, leave hicks where he is.porkpie

I'm sure you will. One can only hope that your MP understands the difference between "no" and "know" and values the opinions of one of his incredibly ignorant constituents appropriately.

Anyone who believes that "Hicks is a suspected terriorist" is sufficient grounds for 5 years in jail without trial is beyond hope. If someone suspects you're a terrorist, is it okay for us to throw you in jail for 5 years without any proper evidence? I'm guessing you'd object to that, but it would be a well-deserved response to your attitude.

 

[greggy]

I'm sure you will. One can only hope that your MP understands the difference between "no" and "know" and values the opinions of one of his incredibly ignorant constituents appropriately.

Anyone who believes that "Hicks is a suspected terriorist" is sufficient grounds for 5 years in jail without trial is beyond hope. If someone suspects you're a terrorist, is it okay for us to throw you in jail for 5 years without any proper evidence? I'm guessing you'd object to that, but it would be a well-deserved response to your attitude.

Kremmen,

David Hicks is entitled to be presumed innocent until found guilty. The fact that its been over 5 years and still no trial is a complete farce. If he gets a fair trial and is, lets say, found guilty, then so be it. Either way, Mr Howard has been slow to react to popular opinion and should now make further amends.
Porkpie, what you have to realise that there are many pro-American supporters including myself who are now questioning why its taken so long. I for one now feel that the Iraq situation is beyond repair and only now with the benefit of hindsight do I realise it was a mistake to get involved there. As for Afghanistan the US is doing the right thing there.

 

[2020hindsight]

I wonder if anyone else remembers hearing this speech by Mandela, 30 Jan 2003 - BEFORE the latest war ...(the war started March 18 , 2003) - claiming Bush had no foresight, and would destroy the UN.
Basically he had no major problem with actions in Afghanistan, but remained convinced that without UN backing, Iraq was a disaster waiting to happen.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/America/Mandela_Blasts_Bush.html
Nelson Mandela Blasts Bush on Iraq, Warns of 'Holocaust'
by Toby Reynolds indymedia.org, January 30, 2003
Former South African President Nelson Mandela lashed out at U.S. President George Bush's stance on Iraq on Thursday, saying the Texan had no foresight and could not think properly.

Mandela, a towering statesman respected the world over for his fight against Apartheid-era discrimination, said the U.S. leader and British Prime Minister Tony Blair were undermining the United Nations, and suggested they would not be doing so if the organization had a white leader.
"It is a tragedy what is happening, what Bush is doing in Iraq," Mandela told an audience in Johannesburg. "What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust," he added, to loud applause.
".........
But he said he was happy that people, especially those in the United States, were opposing military action in Iraq.
"I hope that that opposition will one day make him understand that he has made the greatest mistake of his life," Mandela said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/30/iraq/main538607.shtml
Mandela Slams Bush On Iraq. JOHANNESBURG, South Africa, Jan. 30, 2003 (CBS) A prominent new voice joined the international chorus of protest against U.S. preparations for war against Iraq on Thursday.

Former South African President Nelson Mandela delivered a fiery speech denouncing the United States and aiming harsh personal criticism at President Bush. .....

Mandela said he would support action against Iraq only if it is ordered by the U.N. He urged the people of the United States to join massive protests against Mr. Bush and called on world leaders, especially those with vetoes in the U.N. Security Council, to oppose him.

"What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."

.....That brought an unusually subdued reaction from the White House. "Nelson Mandela was a great leader. He remains a great man," said White House spokesman Ari Fleischer. "But on this the president and Nelson Mandela do not see eye to eye."

Fleischer pointed to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating their support of Mr. Bush. "The president expresses his gratitude to the many leaders of Europe who obviously feel differently" than Mandela, Fleischer said. "He understands there are going to be people who are more comfortable doing nothing about a growing menace that could turn into a holocaust."

While Mandela has repeatedly condemned U.S. behavior toward Iraq in recent months, his comments Thursday were far more critical and his attack on Mr. Bush far more personal than in the past. "Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly?" he asked. "All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil," he said.

He accused Mr. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the United Nations and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who is from Ghana. "Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary-generals were white," he said.

He said Mr. Bush was "trying to bring about carnage" and appealed to the American people to vote him out of office and demonstrate against his policies.

He also condemned Blair for his strong support of the United States. "He is the foreign minister of the United States. He is no longer prime minister of Britain," he said. That echoes a theme adopted by war opponents in Britain. Blair is to meet Mr. Bush for talks on Friday.

Mr. Bush hosted Mandela at the White House in November 2001, where Mandela expressed his sympathy for the Sept. 11 attacks and said he supported operations in Afghanistan. Last July, the president awarded Mandela the Presidential Medal of Freedom ”” the nation's highest civilian honor ”” dubbing him "perhaps the most revered statesman of our time."

Finally some quotes

http://antiwar.com/quotes.php
Force is all-conquering, but its victories are short-lived. - Abraham Lincoln
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.~George Washington
If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.~George W. Bush
Millions more…

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1848855.htm
quote of the week :- " it's simply saying that the lions are being let out in the arena - bring on the Christians and let's have a fair trial".

Hicks trial 2 years away, lawyer says
A lawyer for Australian Guantanamo Bay inmate David Hicks believes it will be two years before his client is presented to a military commission. Adelaide lawyer David McLeod says news from the United States that a process is under way to bring his client to trial is window dressing. A US military prosecutor says a judge has received the charges against Hicks and after they are served on him, he should be presented to a military commission 30 days later.

But Mr McLeod expects the commission to be challenged, causing more delays. "David will get caught up in that process and we can't see a commission hearing starting within two years," he said. "The challenges to the veracity, legality, fairness of the process will occupy the civil courts in America one way or the other over the next couple of years."

Mr McLeod says the court procedure is still discredited. "Total window dressing as I say, it's simply saying that the lions are being let out in the arena - bring on the Christians and let's have a fair trial," he said.

 

[rederob]

Will be interesting when Rudd takes on Ruddock over this, as he has taken on little Jonny over Iraq.
Apparently Iraq will get overrun with terrorists if we take away our piddling effort in Iraq. But rather than join Bush with a new injection of troop numbers, little jonny prefers to sit on his hands and play word games.
Unfortunately little Jonny learned no lessons from Vietnam, whereupon it was a tide of anti-war sentiment that swept Whitlam into power and Sonia McMahon's husband was confined to political oblivion.
Same will happen this time round.

I wonder if we will have popularised Iraqi restaurants in 10 years time, like we did with the Vietnamese: Food for thought.

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

I'm sure you will. One can only hope that your MP understands the difference between "no" and "know" and values the opinions of one of his incredibly ignorant constituents appropriately.

Anyone who believes that "Hicks is a suspected terriorist" is sufficient grounds for 5 years in jail without trial is beyond hope. If someone suspects you're a terrorist, is it okay for us to throw you in jail for 5 years without any proper evidence? I'm guessing you'd object to that, but it would be a well-deserved response to your attitude.

Second that Kremmen....... Porky I hope you wouldn't apply the same logic to one of youre own blood 'kin' ****canned at Guantanamo, by Bush's gophers .

 

[doctorj]

I'll certainly let my MP no my position, leave hicks where he is.

May your children never suffer what you're willing to inflict on someone else's son.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

May your children never suffer what you're willing to inflict on someone else's son.

Tell that to all the relatives who died in the Twin Towers.

Let due process US style continue.

Its a hell of a lot fairer than having your head hacked off while being videotaped by an "Islamist Militia" so that your relatives can view it on youtube., or dying in a rain of gasoline sitting at your desk going about your everyday routine.

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

Tell that to all the relatives who died in the Twin Towers.

Non sequitur. Hicks had nothing to do with 911

Let due process US style continue.

Its a hell of a lot fairer than having your head hacked off while being videotaped by an "Islamist Militia" so that your relatives can view it on youtube., or dying in a rain of gasoline sitting at your desk going about your everyday routine.

Garpal

Now Garpal, you really must keep abreast of events. Atrocities committed by the Bush Cabal.... errr, "Coalition of the Willing" far and away outnumber atrocities committed by "insurgents". Rupert just doesn't tell you about that.

Be careful what you wish for....

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Non sequitur. Hicks had nothing to do with 911



Now Garpal, you really must keep abreast of events. Atrocities committed by the Bush Cabal.... errr, "Coalition of the Willing" far and away outnumber atrocities committed by "insurgents". Rupert just doesn't tell you about that.

Be careful what you wish for....

Dear waynwL

Agree that I get most of my news from Rupert, as you do, otherwise as we both do from Jamie or KerryK., so lets not get precious about origins of knowledge. Even though I live in a regional area I can access al jazeera, jerusalem post, the guardian ( with which I'm sure you have some acquantaince), the international guardian which a leftie mate of mine passes on to me in exchange for Quadrant,(puts little finger in mouth like mini me).

Lets all grow up wayneL,

We are all in deep trouble at present. right and Left mean nought. whether you believe in what god seems to matter more. Lets try and seek a way through all this. Demonising Bush seems counter-intiuitive to defending Islamic fascists awaiting trial in a system they deny their enemies.

Garpal