Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[macca]

An ignorant statement there.

A vaccine does not kill a virus which is in nature. A vaccine prevents us from becoming unwell by infection of the virus.

Now, despite this gentleman being 80 years of age, I will challenge you to go up against him to argue your proposition. I'd be very confident to 100% if I had a bet of $1,000 on the outcome of the debate, I'd collect.

Setting it Straight video edition: What we know about the virus

Your default description here

www.doherty.edu.au

The vaccine only works on the spike protein, the other three components are still there, that is why a leaky vaccine allows variants to happen.

I did not say we don't need a vaccine, I said the ones we are using are not good enough AND we need an early treatment protocol to delay the incubation within the sinus area so that the body has time to defeat the rotten thing

I did read that some people in Israel are having their Fourth shot within 12 months, surely that tells us that we need to broaden our attack

 

[wabullfrog]

And right now in the UK there are 52000 new cases Today with 912 people dying in the last week, giving a death rate of 1.2 per 100k

It is exceedingly obvious that a vaccine that does Not kill the virus is no bloody good, we need an early treatment protocol as well.

FFS when are the so called experts going to pull their heads out of their A**** and admit they were conned

I'm not sure why you would use a single day of cases & match that with a weekly deaths figure.

For comparison figures using that methodology

Russia 36339 new cases today with 7074 people dying in the last week
Ukraine 23785 new cases today with 2866 people dying in the last week.
Romania 16110 new cases today with 2695 people dying in the last week

Unsure how you calculated the death rate.

 

[macca]

I'm not sure why you would use a single day of cases & match that with a weekly deaths figure.

For comparison figures using that methodology

Russia 36339 new cases today with 7074 people dying in the last week
Ukraine 23785 new cases today with 2866 people dying in the last week.
Romania 16110 new cases today with 2695 people dying in the last week

Unsure how you calculated the death rate.

I used the UK figures as they are regarded as more accurate in general but really the main gist of my argument is that we need more than just the vaccine.

There have been numerous studies on various treatments OS that should be used as soon as people are positive, we need to attack while it is up in the sinus area not wait until it gets down into the lungs

 

[moXJO]

We had a chat about media propaganda before. This one came up in previous posts after Joe caught flack. Sanjay was the cnn source at the time. It's also why cnn is total bs.

 

[sptrawler]

Covid booster jabs start next week, I guess all the early uptake rah rah members will be down there lining up, apparently some moderna is due to go out of date soon. Your vaccine coverage is waning, get a booster, before borders open.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Less than half of the country’s available Moderna supply has been used

Tens of thousands of Moderna vaccine doses are due to expire within weeks as less than half of Australia’s supplies have been used.

www.smh.com.au

 

[rederob]

The vaccine only works on the spike protein, the other three components are still there, that is why a leaky vaccine allows variants to happen.

You need to brush up on what you think you know.
For a start there are many different types of vaccines and AZ is very different from Pfizer. Next vaccines cannot cause a person to have covid, so it is impossible for a variant (which is just an evolutionary mutation) to arise.

I did not say we don't need a vaccine, I said the ones we are using are not good enough AND we need an early treatment protocol to delay the incubation within the sinus area so that the body has time to defeat the rotten thing.

Vaccines are very effective in preventing hospitalisation and death, and that's why some States are now opening up, while a number of European nations have already done so.
Treatment protocols do exist, however far and away the best thing to do is prevent the disease by getting vaccinated. Antibodies are needed to fight any virus, and this is consistent with the adage of prevention is better than cure.
You seem to espouse the nonsensical mantra that that people somehow know they have the disease so can prevent its incubation. In fact very few people know they have covid until tested, and those fronting with symptoms are too late to suppress incubation.

I did read that some people in Israel are having their Fourth shot within 12 months, surely that tells us that we need to broaden our attack

The simple reason is that covid antibodies don't confer long lasting immunity. Third and subsequent "booster" (rather than full) doses may be needed for the most vulnerable.

 

[mullokintyre]

That is a very interesting perspective and well worth debating. I can see some similarities but also some striking differences.

Firstly COVID is a contagious disease where one persons behaviour directly affects others if they ignore isolation instructions. There are already health laws in place to deal with people who refuse to quarantine when required .
But secondly we now have a vaccine that is proven to largely shield people from the worst effects of the disease. Deciding not to take this very simple step to protect oneself is not doing any favours to themself, their family and the community at large.

I agree that the person is not doing themselves any favours, but that is no different from any of the other scenarios I outlined. It is their choice. As to the effect on their family and community at large, that is a moot point. This can only be true if the transmission of the virus is worse by a non vaxed person than a person who has the virus but has been vaxed. The jury is still out on this one. Ther have been competing studies (isn't there always?) on this subject. (see Virus shed 1 and Virus shed 2 versus Virus shed 3 and Virus shed 4)

The other examples you give are very striking. You say these are excesses are all voluntary . Perhaps. No one is actually "forcing" people to smoke, over eat, over drink, eat take away rubbish until their livers and pancreas collapse.

But in reality our whole economic system has become dependent on relentlessly promoting and persuading people to go to excess on these and many other industries. So where do we go ?

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I don't seriously believe the hospital system will consider letting "nature take it's course" with anti vaxxers or COVID deniers. In fact the probable challenge for treatment in a stretched hospital environment which is madly triaging COVID sick people will be along the following lines.

And how much of a stretch do you think the hospital system gets because of all the other free will actions of stupid people?
Those unfortunate to get breast cancer, prostate cancer brain Tumours, MND, parkinsons disease, strokes, and a host of other life threatening diseases get very little if any choice.

Mick

 

[rederob]

Let's look at some logic:

I agree that the person is not doing themselves any favours, but that is no different from any of the other scenarios I outlined. It is their choice.

A personal choice that potentially affects others without their consent, and can lead to their serious illness or death, is very different to the choice that is isolated to the individual person. For example, smoking is not unlawful, but is restricted in circumstance.

As to the effect on their family and community at large, that is a moot point. This can only be true if the transmission of the virus is worse by a non vaxed person than a person who has the virus but has been vaxed.

The problem with that idea is that vaccinated people are much less likely to be infected with covid. So even if vaccinated people and unvaccinated had contracted covid and spread it at the same rate, the incidence of spread cannot be equal. That's what the concept of herd immunity is based on.

And how much of a stretch do you think the hospital system gets because of all the other free will actions of stupid people?
Those unfortunate to get breast cancer, prostate cancer brain Tumours, MND, parkinsons disease, strokes, and a host of other life threatening diseases get very little if any choice.

Good points!
Not sure they come as any surprise.
Stretching them to include covid, we now add a disease that can quickly clog up hospitals if out of control, further delay elective surgeries, and take up bed space, especially in ICUs, necessary to cater for emergencies.
Beyond the hospital system we have lockdowns and border closures that have caused significant disruptions to our personal lives and to our economies. These "stupid people" continue to include antivaxxers or disbelievers who don't follow heath orders, won't get vaccinated, and carelessly spread their disease across the country.

 

[wayneL]

COVID Derangement Syndrome... LOL

 

[macca]

I agree that the person is not doing themselves any favours, but that is no different from any of the other scenarios I outlined. It is their choice. As to the effect on their family and community at large, that is a moot point. This can only be true if the transmission of the virus is worse by a non vaxed person than a person who has the virus but has been vaxed. The jury is still out on this one. Ther have been competing studies (isn't there always?) on this subject. (see Virus shed 1 and Virus shed 2 versus Virus shed 3 and Virus shed 4)



And how much of a stretch do you think the hospital system gets because of all the other free will actions of stupid people?
Those unfortunate to get breast cancer, prostate cancer brain Tumours, MND, parkinsons disease, strokes, and a host of other life threatening diseases get very little if any choice.

Mick

I have two friends who were so obese they were given free lapband surgery on their stomachs on medicare, I was told it was $30k per op.

They now weigh more than before the op, so $60k of public money wasted because of their food choices

Diabetes 2 is usually caused by eating crap yet the treatment which can go on for years is subsidised by Medicare.

 

[rederob]

COVID Derangement Syndrome... LOL

Husband and wife spend 8 minutes avoiding the role that vaccines play = covid derangement.

 

[noirua]

COVID-19 deaths in Russia hit record for fifth straight day as lockdown looms

Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.

www.reuters.com

MOSCOW, Oct 23 (Reuters) - Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.

 

[Belli]

COVID-19 deaths in Russia hit record for fifth straight day as lockdown looms

Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.

www.reuters.com

MOSCOW, Oct 23 (Reuters) - Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.

I understand there is also a requirement for those who are over 60 and unvaccinated to stay at home for three months and the same for those who have chronic condition but are unvaccinated.

Apparently the vaccination rate for the country is in the 30% mark.

 

[moXJO]

Remember Dr. Fauci?
Turns out they did oversee gain off function.


Oh and I also heard and I hope to God its not true that they (NIH) funded:
Having beagle puppies heads basically eaten by sand flies. And so the puppies couldn't annoy them they removed their vocal cords.

They also left dogs in the desert to attract more sand flies... for 9 days.

Ah let's see if the mob eat him.

 

[macca]

An interesting read, good background on what Covid actually is and the thoughts of the Assoc of Physicians and Surgeons in the USA.

I believe that this is where the whole world will end up, vaccine if you wish, but the numbers in the UK Singapore and Israel indicate that the vaccine is not enough to stop this thing.

Every time we get a variant we are in trouble, home quarantine and home treatment seems a likely solution and if we were to hand out this or similar info freely via the media or testing stations we stop this situation where whole clans pass it around to each other

 

[rederob]

An interesting read, good background on what Covid actually is and the thoughts of the Assoc of Physicians and Surgeons in the USA.

I believe that this is where the whole world will end up, vaccine if you wish, but the numbers in the UK Singapore and Israel indicate that the vaccine is not enough to stop this thing.

Every time we get a variant we are in trouble, home quarantine and home treatment seems a likely solution and if we were to hand out this or similar info freely via the media or testing stations we stop this situation where whole clans pass it around to each other

Your link is from a snake oil sales team that dress up disproven HCQ and unproven Ivermectin as treatments for covid.
It mixes some good advice and info with dodgy data and an overall poor strategy for being safe. It reads as if covid is just a bit worse than the flu, and if that's what you want to believe then watch the online videos of covid sufferers in ICUs or listen to what their doctors and nurses say.
These snake oil sales people place vaccinations last in their 4 pillars. They are essentially anti-vaxxers who spend 26 pages telling you things you can find elsewhere in a matter of seconds, except they omit the treatment regimes that are proven to work.

 

[mullokintyre]

Remember Dr. Fauci?
Turns out they did oversee gain off function.


Oh and I also heard and I hope to God its not true that they (NIH) funded:
Having beagle puppies heads basically eaten by sand flies. And so the puppies couldn't annoy them they removed their vocal cords.

They also left dogs in the desert to attract more sand flies... for 9 days.

Ah let's see if the mob eat him.

I presume you are referring to this pice of news.
Zero Hedge

A top NIH official admitted in a Wednesday letter that the US-funded so-called "gain-of-function" research in Wuhan, China - and that the US nonprofit which conducted it, EcoHealth Alliance - led by the controversial Peter Daszak, "failed to report" that they had created a chimeric bat coronavirus which could infect human

In a letter addressed to Rep. James Comer (R-KY), NIH Principal Deputy Director Lawrence A. Tabak cites a "limited experiment" to determine whether "spike proteins from naturally occurring bat coronaviruses circulating in China were capable of binding to the human ACE2 receptor in a mouse model." According to the letter, humanized mice infected with the modified bat virus "became sicker" than those exposed to an unmodified version of the same bat coronavirus.


Daszak failed to report this finding, and has been given five days to submit "any and all unpublished data from the experiments and work conducted" under the NIH grant.
As we noted in September, proof that the US funded of GoF research was blown wide open thanks to materials (here and here) released through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Intercept against the National Institutes of Health, revealing that EcoHealth was paid to make chimeric SARS-based Covid that they confirmed could infect human cells.

While evidence of this research has been pointed to in published studies, the FOIA release provides a key piece to the puzzle which sheds new light on what was going on.

"This is a roadmap to the high-risk research that could have led to the current pandemic," said Gary Ruskin, executive director of U.S. Right To Know, a group that has been investigating the origins of Covid-19 (via The Intercept).

We also learned in September that 18 months before the Pandemic, Daszak applied for a grant to release enhanced airborne coronaviruses into the wild in an effort to inoculate them against diseases that could have otherwise jumped to humans, according to The Telegraph, citing leaked grant proposals from 2018.

New documents show that just 18 months before the first Covid-19 cases appeared, researchers had submitted plans to release skin-penetrating nanoparticles containing “novel chimeric spike proteins” of bat coronaviruses into cave bats in Yunnan, China.
They also planned to create chimeric viruses, genetically enhanced to infect humans more easily, and requested $14million from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) to fund the work.
Daszak hoped to use genetic engineering to cobble "human-specific cleavage sites" onto bat Covid 'which would make it easier for the virus to enter human cells' - and included plans to commingle high-risk natural coronaviruses strains with more infectious, yet less deadly versions. His 'bat team' of researchers included Dr. Shi Zhengli from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, as well as US researchers from the University of North Carolina and the US Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Center.
Darpa refused the contract - saying "It is clear that the proposed project led by Peter Daszak could have put local communities at risk," while warning that Daszak hadn't fully considered the dangers involved in enhancing the virus via gain-of-function research, or by releasing a vaccine into the air.
Angus Dalgleish, Professor of Oncology at St Georges, University of London, who struggled to get work published showing that the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) had been carrying out “gain of function” work for years before the pandemic, said the research may have gone ahead even without the funding.
“This is clearly a gain of function, engineering the cleavage site and polishing the new viruses to enhance human cell infectibility in more than one cell line,” he said. -Telegraph
In short, after a massive drop of receipts proved that Fauci, and his boss Francis Collins, lied, the NIH itself has finally acknowledged funding Gain-of-Function research.

Slowly, inch by inch, the information is being dragged out.
However, we need to see the actual letter before we can define it as a fact.
Mick

 

[rederob]

Remember Dr. Fauci?
Turns out they did oversee gain off function.

Rehashing debunked claims is de rigueur for you. Gain of function has a specific scientific meaning and this threshold was not met in the WIV funding. The usually unflappable Fauci got visibly angry in an exchange with Rand Paul during a Senate hearing where it was clear Paul did not understand the difference between what WIV carried out and gain of function research.

Then we go on to your next bit of mud slinging:

Oh and I also heard and I hope to God its not true that they (NIH) funded: Having beagle puppies heads basically eaten by sand flies. And so the puppies couldn't annoy them they removed their vocal cords.
They also left dogs in the desert to attract more sand flies... for 9 days.

Do you ever bother to check the rubbish you post?

 

[moXJO]

Cumo, Fauci,

Then we go on to your next bit of mud slinging:

Do you ever bother to check the rubbish you post?

Yeah he's just in charge it happened under his watch. "Oh but he didn't know", like I care. I said it was nih funded and it was.

Snopes isn't a "fact" checker. It's a page dedicated to minimising or maximising political damage. It still basically stating that the experimental happened and Fauci was the director at the time and nih funded it.

So:

The experiment happened.

It was done in Tunisia where it's common to outsource ethics.

There are better ways to do it then letting insects bite the heads of animals. One control group was definitely in pain according to the notes.

So you actually verified it did happen.

Own goal??

I don't need help making you look stupid. Please desist as it ruins the fun.

 

[rederob]

It was done in Tunisia where it's common to outsource ethics.

Completely false.
Why do you believe the rubbish you post!