Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[wayneL]

@cynic this ones for you

New York Times Pitchbot
@DougJBalloon
·
Aug 27

We wanted to understand how ivermectin, an anti-parasitic medicine usually given to horses, could also be used to treat COVID in humans. So we talked to three Eric Clapton fans at a Cheesecake Factory in Tampa.

"Usually given to horses"

This is the sort of framing which indicates at least an element of propaganda in my opinion.

Yes ivermectin is a common horse/livestock anti-parasitic drug.

Likewise penicillin is a very common antibiotic given to horses and livestock.... Plus dexamethasone, Osphos, and upteen other drugs.

However there is probably more ivermectin manufactured for humans than for livestock.

We don't say "penicillin an antibiotic usually given to a horses”, now do we?

like everything the concept of using ivermectin, along with other drugs to treat covid, has become politisized and propagandized for reasons one can easily speculate over. It is not a dry scientific, data driven argument at all... But we could probably say that for both sides of the equation.

This, just like with the so-called vaccine, makes it very difficult for we plebeians to actually come to a reasonable conclusion without allowing our biases to overcome the actual dry data.

It might be the ducks nuts (along with doxycycline and zinc or whatever) for treating covid, or it might be ineffective, or it might be at some point between those two extremes.

One thing is for sure, it does not have the adverse reactions that these jabs do. You are not going die from taking ivermectin.

...and at least it will clean you out of most worms and knock off the pubic lice you picked up from Roxanne the local hooker last week (sex work being considered an essential service an' all that). </tongueincheek>

Ivermectin - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Joules MM1]

"Usually given to horses"

This is the sort of framing which indicates at least an element of propaganda in my opinion.

Yes ivermectin is a common horse/livestock anti-parasitic drug.

Likewise penicillin is a very common antibiotic given to horses and livestock.... Plus dexamethasone, Osphos, and upteen other drugs.

However there is probably more ivermectin manufactured for humans than for livestock.

We don't say "penicillin an antibiotic usually given to a horses”, now do we?

like everything the concept of using ivermectin, along with other drugs to treat covid, has become politisized and propagandized for reasons one can easily speculate over. It is not a dry scientific, data driven argument at all... But we could probably say that for both sides of the equation.

This, just like with the so-called vaccine, makes it very difficult for we plebeians to actually come to a reasonable conclusion without allowing our biases to overcome the actual dry data.

It might be the ducks nuts (along with doxycycline and zinc or whatever) for treating covid, or it might be ineffective, or it might be at some point between those two extremes.

One thing is for sure, it does not have the adverse reactions that these jabs do. You are not going die from taking ivermectin.

...and at least it will clean you out of most worms and knock off the pubic lice you picked up from Roxanne the local hooker last week (sex work being considered an essential service an' all that). </tongueincheek>

Ivermectin - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

the reason we dont say penicillin is for horses is because the specific penicillin is for horses and nothing like the penicillin for people,
and clearly there is no reason to think people would inject/injest a horse penicillin
however, we should promote conscious dimwittery not be pirsued, intaking paste designed for an animal proven ineffective
there are ample peer-reviewed papers, even the company that makes the paste posted an article discouraging the intake by people

keep in mind that someone can rant about how effective an animal pasted in in the same way that someone can rant about how pear kernels saved them from cancer, a sample of like-minded idiots does not make a substantial body of evidence

the "well-maybe-it-could-be-true-you-dont-have-the-right-to-dismiss-it" line of thought is more to do with psycho-babble fear than actual verifiable research

 

[sptrawler]

It will be interesting to follow the NSW progress, it should by rights send their economy off again, but how the other States respond to NSW travellers will be interesting especially Tassie and W.A.

Premier says NSW will 'show the way' how to live with COVID as state records 1,218 new cases

NSW is now halfway to its target of having 70 per cent of adults fully vaccinated — the milestone in which the state will start to open up — with 834,000 people receiving a vaccine dose in the past week.

www.abc.net.au

NSW is now halfway to its target of having 70 per cent of adults fully vaccinated — the milestone in which the state will start to open up — despite recording 1,218 new local COVID-19 cases.
While 65 per cent of adults in NSW have now received one vaccination, 35 per cent are now fully vaccinated.

"We are approaching 1 million jabs a week and for a population of 8 million people, that is outstanding," the Premier said.

"Thank you. It is making a difference. We are going to show the way in Australia as to how you can live with COVID."

Almost 50,000 vaccines doses were administered in the 24 hours to 8:00pm yesterday.

 

[wayneL]

the reason we dont say penicillin is for horses is because the specific penicillin is for horses and nothing like the penicillin for people,
and clearly there is no reason to think people would inject/injest a horse penicillin
however, we should promote conscious dimwittery not be pirsued, intaking paste designed for an animal proven ineffective
there are ample peer-reviewed papers, even the company that makes the paste posted an article discouraging the intake by people

keep in mind that someone can rant about how effective an animal pasted in in the same way that someone can rant about how pear kernels saved them from cancer, a sample of like-minded idiots does not make a substantial body of evidence

the "well-maybe-it-could-be-true-you-dont-have-the-right-to-dismiss-it" line of thought is more to do with psycho-babble fear than actual verifiable research

Again you miss-frame things to misinform.

Nobody is suggesting that people should buy a horse paste and shove it down their throat. There may be other substances contained in the paste that would be incongruent with human physiology. Additionally, there is the question of correct dosage.

However, ivermectin intended for humans is readily available and available via prescription from your doctor.

There is absolutely no question about it's efficacy and safety for its on label purpose.

The argument here is about an off label purpose Viz, the treatment, along with other drugs, of a respiratory disease.

There appears to be peer-reviewed research that contradicts each other. Again that makes me suspicious about the motives of the researchers... on both sides of the ledger.

And worth pointing out that classic mistake in the belief that peer-reviewed automatically makes some research gospel, or even partially correct.

To belabour the point I have made repeatedly once again here, that over decades I've been an avid consumer of peer-reviewed research in the equine nutrition, exercise physiology, and equine distal physiology and biomechanics fields.

At least 80% of it is absolute Goddamned garbage.

Peer review, though not meaningless, is only one small step in supporting a hypothesis.

 

[wayneL]

And BTW @Joules MM1 while it is true that penicillin intended for animals is not recommended for humans for various reasons, penicillin is penicillin. The penicillin that is given to humans is exactly the same penicillin that is given to animals. There may be other variants in terms of added ingredients and purity of manufacture or something like that, but the base active ingredient is exactly the same.

Is It Safe For Humans To Use Animal Medicines?

It's not unheard of for people to take medications prescribed for animals, but is it safe?

www.newson6.com

 

[Joules MM1]

“You’re made of spare parts, aren’t you, bud?” — Wayne (sayings from Letter Kenny) :

However, medications produced for livestock and intended to be mixed with feed may not undergo the same level of manufacturing scrutiny by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as human drugs do.3 These products may have more impurities that don't represent a health concern for the animals but could be a risk for people.
Self-Medication Risks

A bigger issue, however, is self-medicating with drugs that may not be appropriate. This self-medicating may especially be a problem with the self-diagnosis of infection and then self-treating with an animal’s antibiotic.4
The self-diagnosis may not be correct. The antibiotic may not be the correct one to treat the infection or the dose may not be correct. If cost is the issue, many antibiotics are generic and can be purchased for as little as $4 for a prescription.

Can Pet Medications Be Used By Humans?

Humans using medications meant for animals is not uncommon, especially with people who work with animals. However, is it a legal or safe practice?

www.verywellhealth.com

By
Michael Bihari, MD

Fact checked by
Ashley Hall
on February 23, 2020

 

[Belli]

The Therapeutic Goods Administration has provided a similar warning as the FDA on the matter. Sharing is not caring.

This also applies to medicines: what's good for your pup, fish or cat can do you a lot of harm. Although some animal medicines may share the same or similar ingredients as human medicines, they are not safe for human use and shouldn't be taken.

 

[wayneL]

“You’re made of spare parts, aren’t you, bud?” — Wayne (sayings from Letter Kenny) :

However, medications produced for livestock and intended to be mixed with feed may not undergo the same level of manufacturing scrutiny by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as human drugs do.3 These products may have more impurities that don't represent a health concern for the animals but could be a risk for people.
Self-Medication Risks

A bigger issue, however, is self-medicating with drugs that may not be appropriate. This self-medicating may especially be a problem with the self-diagnosis of infection and then self-treating with an animal’s antibiotic.4
The self-diagnosis may not be correct. The antibiotic may not be the correct one to treat the infection or the dose may not be correct. If cost is the issue, many antibiotics are generic and can be purchased for as little as $4 for a prescription.

Can Pet Medications Be Used By Humans?

Humans using medications meant for animals is not uncommon, especially with people who work with animals. However, is it a legal or safe practice?

www.verywellhealth.com

By
Michael Bihari, MD

Fact checked by
Ashley Hall
on February 23, 2020

Jesus Christ.

Who the hell is suggesting self diagnosis and self-administration with animal products??

Not me, if you read my post again.


Yet again you are misframing the whole argument.

But I reiterate the actual drug ivermectin is just ivermectin whether it's in a horse wormer or a pill intended for human consumption. Penicillin is just penicillin whether it's in an injection intended for livestock or in a form intended to be consumed by humans.

Nobody is suggesting that we inject ourself with penicillin with an 18 gauge needle for f##sake, nor shove a tube of horse wormer down our necks.

How many times and in how many ways do I have to say that?

 

[rederob]

You have to respect people like Doherty who have had a lifetime of devotion to their work and at 80, is still going strong.
Nothwithstanding that, there are some who think that the Doherty institue is being used by the feds and others to push their biews.

From Matt Barrie

The article is long, and probably needs to be read in conjunction with the Doherty report.
But it does make some valid points.
Its not so much a criticism of Doherty or his institute as they modelled what the Government asked them to do. Its more a criticism of those who took the governments word for what it was supposed to have said.
In the end, its still just a model, and may or may not bear any resemblance to reality.
Mick

Matt Barrie clearly did not understand the modelling. For example, he said:

"They’ve simply stopped the simulation before the effects of opening up play out."​

Whereas the modelling commences after a decision to open up, and with one outbreak to kickstart community transmission.
His next gross error is in assuming covid is like a common respiratory virus. The infectivity of covid has not been positively correlated to seasonality. Take a look at Spain which has 2 of its 5 waves beginning in summer:

Or Canada which had its second wave taper off as the colder January/February months kicked in, but took off into a third wave after the snow melt and into the warmer spring months:

I couldn't really work out what Barrie was on about after that as his data analysis was haphazard.
Doherty's simple takeaway is that even with an 80% vaccination level and daily infections peaking around 50K, total deaths after 180 days is less than a thousand, on the basis of his "all adults" vaccination strategy. National Cabinet has endorsed Doherty's framework, but that's about it.
If you think Doherty's modelling is off, then look at where the UK is today, and they don't yet have 80% fully vaccinated.

 

[basilio]

This is how easily the Delta strain infects people.

Unvaccinated teacher infected half their students with Covid, CDC finds

Teacher read to class without a mask despite Covid symptoms and infected 26 people at California elementary school

www.theguardian.com

 

[macca]

Jesus Christ.

Who the hell is suggesting self diagnosis and self-administration with animal products??

Not me, if you read my post again.


Yet again you are misframing the whole argument.

But I reiterate the actual drug ivermectin is just ivermectin whether it's in a horse wormer or a pill intended for human consumption. Penicillin is just penicillin whether it's in an injection intended for livestock or in a form intended to be consumed by humans.

Nobody is suggesting that we inject ourself with penicillin with an 18 gauge needle for f##sake, nor shove a tube of horse wormer down our necks.

How many times and in how many ways do I have to say that?

Wayne,

I have already posted links for this, it seems to me that some people want to live in fear, millions of people have been taking this drug for years and it has saved countless lives.

Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger Doctor google sez Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain...

www.aussiestockforums.com

 

[rederob]

Wayne,

I have already posted links for this, it seems to me that some people want to live in fear, millions of people have been taking this drug for years and it has saved countless lives.

Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger Doctor google sez Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain...

www.aussiestockforums.com

There is no evidence your chosen drug is effective against covid, and millions of deaths suggesting covid cannot be taken lightly.
You seem oblivious to the havoc covid has wreaked across the globe.

 

[mullokintyre]

That is really bad. I'll be honest and to say I have little sympathy for the Derick's and Susanne's doing it tough on $4k per week and $100k in the bank and whining about not being able to have canapes and drinks on the beach as it's 100 meters outside of their 5k zone would be an understatement. However, for the Raj's and Indira's living high on the hog on $1,500 a week and $500 in the bank I have a different attitude. I'm in the Derick group without a Susanne by the way.

The whole approach has been a shambles from the top in my view. To me it doesn't appear there was much attempt to engage with respected leaders of various cultural groups to encourage vaccinations, a wasted opportunity of five months or more when it was observed the effect of the spread of Delta in India, the UK, through Europe or the US to establish the infastructure for vaccinations when vaccines became readily available here, not correcting misinformation concerning AZ v Pfizer (no reputable clinician has ever said AZ is a bad vaccine just that it has a slightly higher but still extremely low risk for certain age groups), poor targeting the peoples of the First Nations who have a higher risk. And the list goes on. Just my take on things. Others will have a different view of the matter as is their right.

Matt Barrie clearly did not understand the modelling. For example, he said:

"They’ve simply stopped the simulation before the effects of opening up play out."​

Whereas the modelling commences after a decision to open up, and with one outbreak to kickstart community transmission.
His next gross error is in assuming covid is like a common respiratory virus. The infectivity of covid has not been positively correlated to seasonality. Take a look at Spain which has 2 of its 5 waves beginning in summer:
View attachment 129564

Or Canada which had its second wave taper off as the colder January/February months kicked in, but took off into a third wave after the snow melt and into the warmer spring months:
View attachment 129565
I couldn't really work out what Barrie was on about after that as his data analysis was haphazard.
Doherty's simple takeaway is that even with an 80% vaccination level and daily infections peaking around 50K, total deaths after 180 days is less than a thousand, on the basis of his "all adults" vaccination strategy. National Cabinet has endorsed Doherty's framework, but that's about it.
If you think Doherty's modelling is off, then look at where the UK is today, and they don't yet have 80% fully vaccinated.

As usual you put words in others mouths.
I never said Doherty modelling is off, I have no opinion on it other than to suspect ALL modelling, not just Doherty's.
I am to review all sides of discussions, not merely the ones you approve of.
Mick

 

[rederob]

As usual you put words in others mouths.
I never said Doherty modelling is off, I have no opinion on it other than to suspect ALL modelling, not just Doherty's.
I am to review all sides of discussions, not merely the ones you approve of.
Mick

Your linked article was headed:

"Australian public fed nonsense as country heads to “irreversible” decision"​

I showed it began with 2 incorrect claims, and thereafter could not understand the haphazard analysis.
If you link to an article and say it has valid points, wouldn't it be a good idea to say what they are given it has obvious shortcomings.

 

[noirua]

Mr Wallace was moved to a hospice on 27 August where his family was able to see him before he died. Earlier in July, Mr Wallace had staged a “Freedom Rally” for people who were “sick of the government being in control of our lives.”

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[mullokintyre]

Your linked article was headed:

"Australian public fed nonsense as country heads to “irreversible” decision"​

I showed it began with 2 incorrect claims, and thereafter could not understand the haphazard analysis.
If you link to an article and say it has valid points, wouldn't it be a good idea to say what they are given it has obvious shortcomings.

The article was headedb as such.
I did not say it.
For a bloke who reckons he is a genius at data analysis, you seem to fail at basic reading.
Was it you who recently posted that you studied logic at at University?
Did you pass?
Mick

 

[rederob]

The article was headedb as such.
I did not say it.
For a bloke who reckons he is a genius at data analysis, you seem to fail at basic reading.
Was it you who recently posted that you studied logic at at University?
Did you pass?
Mick

As I said, tell us why the linked article was worth reading given its incorrect assumptions and haphazard analysis.
Putting up rubbish is never a good look.

 

[basilio]

He followed his principles to the end. I wonder how many more people will follow him ?​

​

Texas man who led anti-mask protests in name of ‘freedom’ dies of Covid-19​

• Caleb Wallace, 30, had been unconscious since 8 August
• Wife: ‘He loved his family and his little girls more than anything’
• Florida radio host who called himself ‘Mr Anti-Vax’ dies of Covid

A protester against mandates to wear masks amid the coronavirus pandemic is seen in Austin, Texas. Photograph: Sergio Flores/Reuters

Associated Press in San Angelo, Texas
Sun 29 Aug 2021 16.59 BST


A man who led efforts in his central Texas community against mask-wearing and other preventative measures during the coronavirus pandemic has died from Covid-19, a month after being admitted to the emergency room.



Read more
Caleb Wallace died on Saturday, his wife Jessica Wallace said on a GoFundMe page where she posted updates on his condition, the San Angelo Standard-Times reported.

He was 30 years old and a father of three. His wife is pregnant with their fourth child.

...Jessica Wallace told the newspaper her husband began experiencing Covid symptoms on 26 July but refused to get tested or go to the hospital. He instead took high doses of Vitamin C, zinc aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic medicine used for livestock that officials have urged people not to take for Covid-19.

Texas man who led anti-mask protests in name of ‘freedom’ dies of Covid-19

Wife says Caleb Wallace, 30, who had been unconscious since 8 August, ‘loved his family and his little girls more than anything’

www.theguardian.com

 

[moXJO]

Seems Victoria's early lockdowns didn't "quash" anything. Amazing how fast delta gets out of control. They are now in the position of being stuck in lockdowns.

 

[mullokintyre]

Seems Victoria's early lockdowns didn't "quash" anything. Amazing how fast delta gets out of control. They are now in the position of being stuck in lockdowns.

Victoria has been in stuck in various forms of lock down for about the last 15 years.
Mick