Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[sptrawler]

sp a Guardian fan now, I'd never have believed it !

I agree with your thoughts though, although I doubt if most media could survive without advertisers/taxpayers.

What they need to do more is have all the media outlets fact check each other a la Media Watch. That would certainly be entertaining and would help keep all of them on their toes.

I actually don't read the Guardian much, not because I dislike it, just it isn't on my newspaper watch list, I have the age, SMH, ABC, telegraph, courier mail and the west australian. But really I can only read the age, SMH and ABC the others have too hard a paywall. The others I read are overseas papers when checking out stories they seem pretty easy to access.
The Guardian articles were only a result of googling experts disagree with Morrison news, then AZ to be available to all news. It just showed how the narrative does a 180, yet they don't correct earlier accusations, it isn't party specific, if labor were in The Australian would be doing the same thing.

 

[pozindustrial]

sp a Guardian fan now, I'd never have believed it !

I agree with your thoughts though, although I doubt if most media could survive without advertisers/taxpayers.

What they need to do more is have all the media outlets fact check each other a la Media Watch. That would certainly be entertaining and would help keep all of them on their toes.

Love that idea, but it might be too hard unfortunately. Media businesses only create news to make advertising money so they can’t bite the hand that feeds them. What I have noticed is that Covid news that could be seen as negative to the current narrative is available for a short time only and then it disappears, particularly news about India and China.

 

[sptrawler]

Interesting article, it shows how prevalent vaccine hesitancy is when only 43% of aged care workers have taken up the vaccine.
I wonder if the SPC directive to employees, to be vaccinated, will be challenged in the court system?

High-risk businesses get green light for mandatory staff vaccinations

While the federal government will not make Covid vaccines mandatory, employers could make the call, Prime Minister Scott Morrison says. Read more.

au.news.yahoo.com

From the article:

Aged Care workers have until September 17 to have at least one dose of a Covid vaccine to be allowed to work. More than 43 per cent have received their first jab.

The Prime Minister said it would be up to the courts to decide whether it is reasonable for retail, supermarket and other essential services to make jabs mandatory.

"Employers need to consider those matters very carefully if they are looking to make directions of that nature," he said.

The reassurance comes after SPC became the first non-health-related business to ban employees unless they are fully vaccinated for Covid-19.

The mandate will be effective from the end of November, the company announced on Thursday.

 

[Belli]

I wonder if the SPC directive to employees, to be vaccinated, will be challenged in the court system?

Possibly but think of the other side of the coin. Employee contracts Covid and lands the company with a law suit.

And have a read of this High Court decision. Would not surprise me if elements of paragrah 2 of the decision to "give any other direction that the authorised officer considers is reasonably necessary to protect public health" could also extend to other directives on public health.

Gerner v Victoria [2020] HCA 48 (10 December 2020)

www.austlii.edu.au

 

[sptrawler]

Possibly but think of the other side of the coin. Employee contracts Covid and lands the company with a law suit.

And have a read of this High Court decision. Would not surprise me if elements of paragrah 2 of the decision to "give any other direction that the authorised officer considers is reasonably necessary to protect public health" could also extend to other directives on public health.

Gerner v Victoria [2020] HCA 48 (10 December 2020)

www.austlii.edu.au

That is exactly what courts are for, to weigh up the probabilities and come to a judgement of what is considered in the public interest.
Lots of things should be tested in court, to get rid of the grey areas that persist because a judgement isn't made, or the issue is settled out of court and the issue remains unresolved.

 

[IFocus]

How about employee forced to have vax and gets blood clots then sues company?

 

[pozindustrial]

We all seek answers to these dreaded lockdowns and how to crawl out back to normalcy.
Here is yet another scientist who has pleaded with our health professionals, the prime minister, ABC, media outlets etc. alerting them to an easy, fast and low cost way to end it.
He explains how misinformation has been spread, how simple drugs have been effective and how these things have been known and used for a very long time. He speaks about intravenous Vit C of which Wuhan imported 50 tons before getting control of the virus among other products, and is frustrated by the censorship and that the medical leaders do not want to upset the big pharma companies. He maintains that our political leaders have no idea at all about what should be done.

The more people realise that these things are the real problem, that Covid should not be the problem it is, that vaccines are a very poor answer the faster we will get out of this mess and economies back on track and our personal freedoms expanded without restriction.

 

[sptrawler]

How about employee forced to have vax and gets blood clots then sues company?

That's exactly what I'm talking about, it is o.k saying you will do this and you will do that, but until it has been tested in court it is just a BS wish list.
If a company can demand a worker has a vaccine, where do you draw the line? I hope the unions actually challenge it, they can make it a condition of new employees (maybe), but it wasn't a condition of employment for current employees. Retrospective conditions of employment, is like any other retrospective laws or rules, those who it affects have to agree to it.
Like I said unless it is challenged, it by de facto becomes acceptable and becomes a grey area, where the company decides what is in the publics best interests over the workers rights.

 

[qldfrog]

In a lot of ways, it is what it is, if the whole thing is a hoax it really doesn't matter, what matters is what you personally think is the right choice for you.
That boils down to a lot of things, age, health, aspirations, travel plans, travel hopes, work requirements, personal beliefs, religious beliefs etc, there isn't one size fits all in this.

As long as we have a choice.....

 

[mullokintyre]

Terry Mcrann in Weekend OZ

The latest Roy Morgan jobs numbers will show that 28,000 people lost their jobs as the lockdowns in Victoria (the previous one) and NSW started to bite through July.
This took the Morgan measure of the number of jobless across Australia to 1.42m.

A further 1.33m were under-employed, meaning a staggering total of more than 2.7m Australians were either out of a job or working short hours. That’s nearly one in every five workers.
These numbers are also before the full impact of the NSW lockdown has played out and of course before the latest Victorian and Queensland lockdowns.

Back in March last year when the first national lockdown was imposed – and before the federal government had introduced the original JobKeeper – more than one in every four workers were either out of work or working short hours.
We won’t get the official ABS jobs data for July for another two weeks, and the way they do the data it will only be for the first two weeks of July – well before the NSW lockdown in particular had really started to bite. The Morgan numbers measure through the month.

The last ABS numbers had the jobless rate at just 4.9 per cent for (the first two weeks of) June. Morgan tells us it’s now really double that at 9.7 per cent.

The last ABS numbers had the jobless and underemployment rate at 12.8 per cent for June. Morgan says it is now 18.8 per cent in July.

More telling, it’s clearly got worse, much worse, than even the Morgan numbers indicate as the NSW lockdown will now run through August at least and has been joined by the new Victorian lockdown and the one in south-east Queensland.

Right now nearly three-quarters of the entire national economy is in lockdown and hurting jobs and businesses not only in the states directly impacted but across Australia.

Watch the state premiers start lining up demanding that the feds provide income support for the workers that they themselves have crunched.
Mick

 

[mullokintyre]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, it is o.k saying you will do this and you will do that, but until it has been tested in court it is just a BS wish list.
If a company can demand a worker has a vaccine, where do you draw the line? I hope the unions actually challenge it, they can make it a condition of new employees (maybe), but it wasn't a condition of employment for current employees. Retrospective conditions of employment, is like any other retrospective laws or rules, those who it affects have to agree to it.
Like I said unless it is challenged, it by de facto becomes acceptable and becomes a grey area, where the company decides what is in the publics best interests over the workers rights.

The problem is that all of the orgs that oversee and monitor the workers righta are already in Lockstep nwith the government.
According to the Fair work ombudsman,

In the current circumstances, the overwhelming majority of employers should assume that they can’t require their employees to be vaccinated against coronavirus.

While the Australian Government’s policy is that receiving a vaccination is voluntary, it aims to have as many Australians vaccinated as possible.

There are limited circumstances where an employer may require their employees to be vaccinated. Whether an employer can require their employees to be vaccinated against coronavirus is highly fact dependent, taking account of the workplace and each employee’s circumstances. Relevant factors an employer should consider include:

• whether a specific law (such as a state or territory public health law) requires an employee to be vaccinated (see Legislation and public health orders requiring vaccination against coronavirus)
• whether an enterprise agreement, other registered agreement or employment contract includes a provision about requiring vaccinations
• if no law, agreement or employment contract applies that requires vaccination, whether it would be lawful and reasonable for an employer to give their employees a direction to be vaccinated (which is assessed on a case by case basis).

Further considerations may include whether employees have a legitimate reason for not being vaccinated (for example, a medical reason), and how protections for employees under anti-discrimination laws may apply. Learn more at How does a vaccination requirement interact with anti-discrimination laws?

We have included more information on these issues below.

Employers should get their own legal advice if:

• they’re considering making coronavirus vaccinations mandatory in their workplace, or
• they operate in a coronavirus high-risk environment (for example, health care or meat processing).

Legislation and public health orders requiring vaccination against coronavirus​

State and territory governments may make public health orders requiring the vaccination of workers (for example, in identified high-risk workplaces or industries) in their state or territory. Employers and workers need to comply with any public health orders that apply to them.

The very first sentence seems to suggest that employers cannot force employees to be vaccinated, but then goes on to undermine in the next section..
Certainly in the case of governments, the precedent has been set. Even before the pandemic started, anyone going to work in a nursing
home had to have had a flu injection.
Safework Australia highlights the duty of care that employers have to provide a safe working environment for employees".

On 28 June 2021, the National Cabinet agreed that COVID-19 vaccinations are to be mandated for residential aged care workers as a condition of working in an aged care facility through shared state, territory and Commonwealth authorities and compliance measures. For further information, go to the National Cabinet Media Statement.

Queensland has issued a public health direction for health workers working with diagnosed cases of COVID-19. For a link to Queensland’s public health directions go to our public health orders page.

Western Australia has issued a public health direction for quarantine centre workers. For a link to Western Australia’s public health directions go to our public health orders page.

New South Wales has issued a public health direction for airport and quarantine workers.

I don't like the chances of any legal challenge working. A legal challenge ahs already been dismissed in the High Court in reltion to lockdowns and the abuse of basic human rights.
Mick

 

[mullokintyre]

And Finally, the police state has arrived.
I never thought I would see the day when any Government, much less a so called liberal one, would demand people carry their papers.
From the NSW Government Website

Proof of address​

You must carry proof of your address if you

• have left your home for a reasonable excuse
• are exercising outdoors or have left your home for recreation, or
• have a reasonable excuse and are leaving Greater Sydney including the Blue Mountains, Central Coast, Wollongong and Shellharbour local government areas.

You must show your proof of address if asked by the NSW Police.

How long will it before its permanent.
Mick

 

[basilio]

And Finally, the police state has arrived.
I never thought I would see the day when any Government, much less a so called liberal one, would demand people carry their papers.
From the NSW Government Website

How long will it before its permanent.
Mick

It's clearly short term and straightforward.
Under the current public health laws to minimise movement if people leave their home for specified reasons they have to stay with a certain radius. So in these circumstances clearly police do need to know where your home is.

 

[sptrawler]

How long will it before its permanent.
Mick

My guess, when they have the vaccine passport.

 

[IFocus]

Australian passport holders can no longer pass freely in and out of Australia, only country in the world has done this (Maybe China too) is the Liberal / National party now the same or worse than the CCP

 

[wayneL]

Australian passport holders can no longer pass freely in and out of Australia, only country in the world has done this (Maybe China too) is the Liberal / National party now the same or worse than the CCP

If not, it's certainly heading that way. A change if g'mint won't change that either unless we vote away from the majors.

We need to vote for more liberal parties (in the true liberal sense, not as in the Liberal party of Australia).

 

[Belli]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, it is o.k saying you will do this and you will do that, but until it has been tested in court it is just a BS wish list.
If a company can demand a worker has a vaccine, where do you draw the line? I hope the unions actually challenge it, they can make it a condition of new employees (maybe), but it wasn't a condition of employment for current employees. Retrospective conditions of employment, is like any other retrospective laws or rules, those who it affects have to agree to it.
Like I said unless it is challenged, it by de facto becomes acceptable and becomes a grey area, where the company decides what is in the publics best interests over the workers rights.

It's a good one there. I think some industries already have the right to require employees have a vaccination. Flu vaccinations for example in hospitals and other similar industries.

 

[pozindustrial]

Don't vote, it just encourages them haha.

Politicians have to be political, watch their backs, do favours, not upset the press, keep party members happy, hand out freebies to battlers, businesses, investors, etc. to keep the backers happy, do anything to increase their margins and their cashflow and try to give direction to the country or state.

It is a new world now where they can print money too.

Looking after our interests has got to be low on the list of todos but looking as if they do is probably high on the list. Spin doctors are essential assets.

All we can do is keep the Westminster style system alive which I think is our best protection. That came out after the 1999 vote to change our constitution and become a republic. It is far from perfect, but more stable than the governments of most countries.

 

[sptrawler]

It's a good one there. I think some industries already have the right to require employees have a vaccination. Flu vaccinations for example in hospitals and other similar industries.

I'm not sure that is accurate, as a lot of hospital staff weren't vaccinated for covid and I'm sure it would have been demanded if an instruction already existed.

Student nurse who worked at two Sydney hospitals while infectious was not vaccinated

A student nurse who worked while infectious with COVID-19 on a number of days at both Fairfield and Royal North Shore hospitals was not vaccinated, NSW Health has confirmed.

www.abc.net.au

Also I thought the first cab off the rank on compulsory vaccinations, were aged care facilities and that comes into effect in September.
I could be wrong.

COVID-19 Vaccination to become mandatory for Residential aged care workers

On Monday, National Cabinet agreed that the COVID-19 vaccination of residential aged care workers will become mandatory by mid-September 2021.

www.health.gov.au

It is just my understanding, but I thought the article posted a few days back said that SPC was the first private company to adopt compulsory vaccinations, maybe you could post up where compulsory vaccinations are already a pre requisite at some work places.

SPC first Australian company to require its staff to be vaccinated

Fruit and vegetable giant SPC will be the first company in Australia to require all onsite personnel – including staff and visitors – to be fully vaccinated by the end of November.

www.smh.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

Australian passport holders can no longer pass freely in and out of Australia, only country in the world has done this (Maybe China too) is the Liberal / National party now the same or worse than the CCP

I wasn't meaning the normal Australian passport, more the passport app that will probably be linked to your medicare and my gov account.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-app-covid-vaccine-passport

Designing Australia's vaccine passport so it works for everyone - ABC listen

The Prime Minister is hoping the prospect of vaccine passports will encourage more of us to get vaccinated, and sooner. Right now if you're fully vaccinated you can access a digital Covid-19 vaccine certificate as proof, and the government are working on a more developed version of that for use...

www.abc.net.au