Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[SirRumpole]

"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000."

Lock.
It.
All.
Down!

Well, investigate medical errors and reduce them. That's normal medical practice (or should be).

Another normal medical practice should be disease prevention.

Or don't you agree ?

 

[wayneL]

Well, investigate medical errors and reduce them. That's normal medical practice (or should be).

Another normal medical practice should be disease prevention.

Or don't you agree ?

How many times do I have to put the phrase "risk vs reward" in my posts?

a common cold is a disease but nobody really gives a crap about preventing colds.

Obesity and cardiovascular disease is in epidemic proportions, yet we allow the proliferation of fast food outlets and junk food in general.

Cancer effects one out of every 3 people in yet or society allows a myriad of factors that are proving to be carcinogenic.

You're here we have a disease that is somewhere between 99 and 99.9% survivable and we destroy economies.

Additionally lockdowns have proven to be deadly on a number of France, far more deadly than covid. Yet our governments enthusiastically lockdown are economies there by increasing the multifaceted causation of these deaths.

I can't believe that after nearly a year people don't understand they're being played.

Only when the boot is on all our necks will you understand.

 

[satanoperca]

In an Australian population of 25 million a 1.5% death rate would result in 370,000 deaths and probably 600k -1 million people with long term heath consequences. That was the scenario facing the Australian governments in March.

Bas I don't think your figures are correct.
Worst Country effected Belgium 1600 dead per Million of Population = 0.16% of the population if everyone is infected
US and United Kingdom, it is roughly 0.1%

So how did you come about 1.5%. While as a percentage it might seem small, it is still a huge relative number.

While Sweden's is 0.075%. Sweden is looking as bad as the media presents

So worst-case scenario for Australia would be 250,000 deaths +/- 25%

Thought I might look at the USA, to get an understanding of what is happening.

There is some really telling figures in the above, 92% of deaths from Covid are from people older than 55.

That age group 55-100 is approx 31% of the USA population and if you are in it, you have a 0.264% chance of dying if you contract it.

Then I would compare the figures above to Australia based on age demographics

Interesting we find the at current count, if we where the same as the USA, 24K death, 95% of those in the age bracket 55+

 

[SirRumpole]

I can't believe that after nearly a year people don't understand they're being played.

Being played for what ?

A Conservative government in Australia has shelled out billions and got us into debt for decades to stop this thing.

The government is controlled by business who definitely don't want their businesses destroyed.

Why the effing hell would a fiscally conservative government do this unless it was necessary ?

 

[satanoperca]

Why the effing hell would a fiscally conservative government do this unless it was necessary ?

Because they are not fiscally conservative, they are arse covering, like the rest of them. Easy to spend other people's money.

 

[SirRumpole]

Because they are not fiscally conservative, they are arse covering, like the rest of them. Easy to spend other people's money.

Really ? They just spent the last 9 years trying to balance the budget and almost achieved it.

 

[satanoperca]

Really ? They just spent the last 9 years trying to balance the budget and almost achieved it.

They failed, they used Covid as an excuse, the never would have balanced the budget.

 

[sptrawler]

200k + in the US and rising.

Are you saying that all those deaths are of sick people and their passing will be a relief to the health system because they won't need treatment any more ?

We could say that for cancer patients surely ? Let 'em die so we don't have to spend money on them.

I don't see the point you are making. A large number of those deaths in the US would have been preventable if proper precautions were taken.

You miss understood my post, I was posing questions, I have said since the beginning I think it is something best avoided.
What I am questioning is the response and the reasoning behind it.
We have never seen a response like this to anything.
Also it isn't a one of response, it looks as though a lockdown could be enacted at any time, there has to be a reason.

 

[satanoperca]

a lockdown could be enacted at any time, there has to be a reason.

FEAR

 

[sptrawler]

Being played for what ?

A Conservative government in Australia has shelled out billions and got us into debt for decades to stop this thing.

The government is controlled by business who definitely don't want their businesses destroyed.

Why the effing hell would a fiscally conservative government do this unless it was necessary ?

Exactly what I was wondering.
I personally don't think we know yet.
Just my opinion.

 

[wayneL]

Good Article here from Joe Hildebrand:



SNIP:

Why it’s about time we all started acting like a smart country
DECEMBER 19, 2020 6:22AM
Joe Hildebrandnews.com.au
There are essentially two types of governments in the world – those that trust their citizens and those that do not.
Either you believe that the people you govern are responsible adults who will act in a reasonable way, follow reasonable rules and make reasonable decisions or you believe that they are somehow infantile or incapable of rational thought.

At the extreme ends of politics this is the difference between democracy and dictatorship, the difference between following the will of the people or suppressing it.......

 

[SirRumpole]

There are essentially two types of governments in the world – those that trust their citizens and those that do not.
Either you believe that the people you govern are responsible adults who will act in a reasonable way, follow reasonable rules and make reasonable decisions or you believe that they are somehow infantile or incapable of rational thought.

There are two types of people in society.

One are responsible adults who act in a reasonable way.

The other are infantile and incapable of rational thought.

The former has to be protected from the latter.

 

[wayneL]

There are two types of people in society.

One are responsible adults who act in a reasonable way.

The other are infantile and incapable of rational thought.

The former has to be protected from the latter.

Which is which, Horace?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

While respecting posters attachment to democracy and a free press it is my belief that during a pandemic such as Covid-19 these are ineffectual instruments to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves today.

A good outcome would be for a minimal decrease in quality of life years and an economy capable of a rapid recovery.

Posters attachment to the common sense ( if one can measure this ) of the Australian people ( if such an identifiable entity exists in 2020 ) is admirable.

It is widely misplaced however and in fact dangerous.

The press are controlled on the one hand on the right by an ageing American/Australian of Scottish heritage with no loyalty to anyone but himself and on the other on the left by a mob of peahens of disputable gender and intelligence with no sense of the real world as it affects workers.

In the political realm Australia is a barnacled boat drifting without a captain or crew after a cyclone.

A firm hand, decisions decided and enacted, changing course rapidly if found to be the wrong decisions, is needed.

Bugger Democracy.

Bugger a Free Press.

gg

 

[SirRumpole]

While respecting posters attachment to democracy and a free press it is my belief that during a pandemic such as Covid-19 these are ineffectual instruments to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves today.

A good outcome would be for a minimal decrease in quality of life years and an economy capable of a rapid recovery.

Posters attachment to the common sense ( if one can measure this ) of the Australian people ( if such an identifiable entity exists in 2020 ) is admirable.

It is widely misplaced however and in fact dangerous.

The press are controlled on the one hand on the right by an ageing American/Australian of Scottish heritage with no loyalty to anyone but himself and on the other on the left by a mob of peahens of disputable gender and intelligence with no sense of the real world as it affects workers.

In the political realm Australia is a barnacled boat drifting without a captain or crew after a cyclone.

A firm hand, decisions decided and enacted, changing course rapidly if found to be the wrong decisions, is needed.

Bugger Democracy.

Bugger a Free Press.

gg

Daniel Andrews ?

 

[SirRumpole]

Which is which, Horace?

Those who listen to the advice of medical experts and follow reasonable precautions are the former wayne.

 

[wayneL]

While respecting posters attachment to democracy and a free press it is my belief that during a pandemic such as Covid-19 these are ineffectual instruments to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves today.

A good outcome would be for a minimal decrease in quality of life years and an economy capable of a rapid recovery.

Posters attachment to the common sense ( if one can measure this ) of the Australian people ( if such an identifiable entity exists in 2020 ) is admirable.

It is widely misplaced however and in fact dangerous.

The press are controlled on the one hand on the right by an ageing American/Australian of Scottish heritage with no loyalty to anyone but himself and on the other on the left by a mob of peahens of disputable gender and intelligence with no sense of the real world as it affects workers.

In the political realm Australia is a barnacled boat drifting without a captain or crew after a cyclone.

A firm hand, decisions decided and enacted, changing course rapidly if found to be the wrong decisions, is needed.

Bugger Democracy.

Bugger a Free Press.

gg

Bugger Democracy makes several assumptions which you may not have accounted for GG.

Firstly, even if common sense could be objectively quantified it makes the exception that the ruler(s) possessed said quality.

Secondly assumes that be dictatorship is benevolent, vis-a-vis operating under the principle of bonum commune communitatis. This is a seriously risky proposition as most totalitarian dictatorship operate under no such principal in practice.

Therefore your argument falls over at the first hurdle in that if the proletariat is devoid of common sense than it is seriously an extremely high probability that the Dear Leader/politburo is also devoid of the same.

Also as we have seen with all kinds of governments but especially totalitarian ones, that the ruling class enrich themselves at the expense of the plebeians.

This is all very fine and dandy if you are part of the ruling class, but obviously not if you are a people.

with regards to free press, the problem with our free press is not so much that it is free but that the ownerships are concentrated in a very few companies. Although I am a free enterpriser this is where I am in favour of regulation to ensure that the press is actually free and not basically corporatist propagandists.

My final thought here is that if you have a totalitarian rule in class than that requires the violent put down of all dissent, whether that descent is justified or not.

Democracy certainly has its faults and rather than dirwct democracy we probably should be or focusing on the principle of representative democracy.

You can keep your brownshirts I'll take my risks with the plebeians.

 

[wayneL]

Those who listen to the advice of medical experts and follow reasonable precautions are the former wayne.

On the face of it I agree but what's reasonable?

We live in a highly integrated system whereas medical experts focus solely on particular medical outcomes. SBS seen in some places where this has been a singular focus there have been overall negative health outcomes.

Up here in Queensland I think that we have a reasonable balance at the moment.... But who knows, that could change at any point.

 

[SirRumpole]

Democracy certainly has its faults and rather than dirwct democracy we probably should be or focusing on the principle of representative democracy.

You only have to look at the opposition from political parties to "citizen initiated referendums" to know that representative democracy will never happen.

 

[sptrawler]

Looks like things just got a whole lot worse in the U.K.

'Worst moment of whole epidemic': Britain says new virus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible

A mutated coronavirus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible than earlier versions is spreading rapidly across Britain.

www.smh.com.au

London: A mutated coronavirus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible than earlier versions is spreading rapidly across Britain, shattering the Christmas plans of tens of millions and stoking fears of a major third wave in Europe.

Epidemiologist John Edmunds, a key member of the government's scientific advisory group for emergencies, described the Sunday morning Australian-time announcement as "the worst moment of the whole epidemic".


The discovery of the mutated strain was announced on Monday but scientific analysis of its impacts were not concluded until Friday night UK-time.
Studies suggest the variant formed in September and accounted for 28 per cent of new infections in London by mid-November. That figure ballooned to 62 per cent by December 9.

"So what this tells us is that this new variant not only moves fast but it is becoming the dominant variant," said chief medical officer Chris Whitty. "It is beating all the others in terms of transmission."

He said there was no evidence the strain makes people sicker but was less certain on the question of whether the new strain may be more resistant to vaccines.

"There are theoretical reasons to suspect some of the changes might alter some of the immune response but there's nothing that's been seen to suggest that's the case," he said.