China and The West: Political Systems Compared and Contrasted

[Garpal Gumnut]

I am an analyst. I use data. Try using data instead of opinions based on ignorance.

@rederob

I'd like to make 2 comments initially.

1. You are expending too much energy on what may be seen by less than a hundred people and will probably change the minds of none.
For your own sake give it a break or get a TV show.

2. On the matter of TV shows, fake data and interpretation of news abounds, on all sides.
For your own sake give it a break or get a TV show.


Whenever I am beset by argument which overwhelms me with it's repetition I turn to that great philosopher Groucho Marx

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

Groucho also summarised the vibe of those who are wary of your comments in the below quote. Remember when self righteousness takes you over on your perceptions of others, "data" or "opinions" or "ignorance" , they tend to hear you say when your post appears.

Before I speak, I have something important to say. Groucho Marx

You don't. You are merely expressing an opinion important to you.

gg

 

[Humid]

@rederob

I'd like to make 2 comments initially.

1. You are expending too much energy on what may be seen by less than a hundred people and will probably change the minds of none.
For your own sake give it a break or get a TV show.

2. On the matter of TV shows, fake data and interpretation of news abounds, on all sides.
For your own sake give it a break or get a TV show.


Whenever I am beset by argument which overwhelms me with it's repetition I turn to that great philosopher Groucho Marx



Groucho also summarised the vibe of those who are wary of your comments in the below quote. Remember when self righteousness takes you over on your perceptions of others, "data" or "opinions" or "ignorance" , they tend to hear you say when your post appears.



You don't. You are merely expressing an opinion important to you.

gg

Geez a hundred would be a stretch

 

[rederob]

@rederob

I'd like to make 2 comments initially.

1. You are expending too much energy on what may be seen by less than a hundred people and will probably change the minds of none.
For your own sake give it a break or get a TV show.

2. On the matter of TV shows, fake data and interpretation of news abounds, on all sides.
For your own sake give it a break or get a TV show.


Whenever I am beset by argument which overwhelms me with it's repetition I turn to that great philosopher Groucho Marx



Groucho also summarised the vibe of those who are wary of your comments in the below quote. Remember when self righteousness takes you over on your perceptions of others, "data" or "opinions" or "ignorance" , they tend to hear you say when your post appears.



You don't. You are merely expressing an opinion important to you.

gg

Sir Garpal
Apart from baseless personal attacks that I try to avoid, I have addressed the ignorance of a number of posters here.
China is nothing like Australia, especially in regard to to the inflammatory language our pollies, civil servants and ex military are venting.
China's retaliation is via trade.
Given the data I presented earlier in this thread shows that China is far and away our biggest trading partner, it makes little sense for us to run our mouth off at them.
Over the next decade China will replace America as the dominant power in the world.
It will do that because China of itself is today the largest market for goods, and Chinese are getting wealthier.
While it is true that China still makes a lot of cheap and shoddy goods, it's also true that mainstream businesses are matching the west in terms of quality for most manufactured goods. My Chinese made Ryobi garden tools - with 6 year warranty - are better product for product than anything I have ever owned (and I thought they were made in Japan until I checked the box).
As China moves to economic dominance, it's also taking a more active role in global forums. However, for it to be more influential it will need to make reform in areas where the west remains critical.
What has been unfortunate in this thread of late is the rote stereotyping of China based on outdated events and rather strange thinking. A whipping boy, for example, is punished for faults of others. China's decision to not buy certain products, or apply tariffs to others, is directly the result of Australia's actions and decisions, as was laid out by their ambassador some weeks ago.
I watch China more than America because many of my long term investments are predicated on the pull China has on our economy. If I was day trading I wouldn't be concerned about China.

 

[finicky]

China is nothing like Australia, especially in regard to to the inflammatory language our pollies

Isn't the current phrase for this 'gaslighting' - where an enemy of the truth in a matter seeks to convince you that what is real is the exact opposite of what you see with your own eyes? Like when the senior Democrat Jerry Nadler said, "violence in Portland by Antifa a "myth"."

"A mouthpiece for Beijing has taken a furious jab at Canberra calling Australians "poor white trash" and darkly warning there will be "consequences" if we don't play nice with China."

 

[sptrawler]

What has been unfortunate in this thread of late is the rote stereotyping of China based on outdated events and rather strange thinking. A whipping boy, for example, is punished for faults of others. China's decision to not buy certain products, or apply tariffs to others, is directly the result of Australia's actions and decisions, as was laid out by their ambassador some weeks ago.

If China were indeed defending its honour, it wouldn't only apply tariffs on products it wasn't reliant on, it would put a blanket tariff on all our produce.
Selective tariffs is bullying, I think China is kicking an own goal, we shall see in a few years time.
By the way a whipping boy, can be used as an example to others, as they take punishment their perceived master should have taken.
It is going to be an interesting time, that is for sure.
You are right in saying China is nothing like us, it would appear the last thing you can do with China, is expect what they say to be what they actually mean.
Try talking to tradies, who have to deal with them.

 

[pozindustrial]

Guys I see you are still arguing with rob the red. I took another member's advice and put him on ignore. Now I never see his posts so he does not have a voice to me. Ignoring is the worst possible thing to do to him because it takes away his platform. I suggest you do the same. Nothing worthwhile there.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Guys I see you are still arguing with rob the red. I took another member's advice and put him on ignore. Now I never see his posts so he does not have a voice to me. Ignoring is the worst possible thing to do to him because it takes away his platform. I suggest you do the same. Nothing worthwhile there.

I must admit I have a short attention span and don't like ignoring ASF members. I checked who was on ignore by me and couldn't remember why that person was, so unignored them just now. I remember one wretch who I ignored a long time in the past but I unignored them last year and haven't seen them posting since.

Perhaps that person went swimming at Portsea and has been taken by a Chinese submarine.

@rederob obviously holds his or her views very firmly and good on him for that, but I don't agree with most of them, so it is easy for me not to get too upset with him.

It takes all sorts to make a forum. I to be honest see myself to be dead centre in the Bell curve and everyone is either more ugly or more beautiful, richer or poorer, happier or sadder, more left or right and more often incorrect than I.

I have done a poll of the patrons here at the hotel on whether they would be willing to form a militia to fight a Chinese move down the Bruce Highway and was met with a stunned silence. Statistically insignificant as that little bloke on the ABC who does elections would say.

gg

 

[sptrawler]

I agree with you GG, I find Rob entertaining, you can always rely on him never being wrong, i think he is actually Kevin Rudd. ?
But I do think @Joe Blow should think about moving this thread to general chat, it really has little to do with shares and is more of a general perception discussion.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I agree with you GG, I find Rob entertaining, you can always rely on him never being wrong, i think he is actually Kevin Rudd. ?
But I do think @Joe Blow should think about moving this thread to general chat, it really has little to do with shares and is more of a general perception discussion.

I would agree.

gg

 

[rederob]

Isn't the current phrase for this 'gaslighting' - where an enemy of the truth in a matter seeks to convince you that what is real is the exact opposite of what you see with your own eyes? Like when the senior Democrat Jerry Nadler said, "violence in Portland by Antifa a "myth"."

"A mouthpiece for Beijing has taken a furious jab at Canberra calling Australians "poor white trash" and darkly warning there will be "consequences" if we don't play nice with China."

Show where China has made a physical threat to Australia.
I can now show dozens which propose a war footing is needed or preparations are needed to fight China. That's aside from America gathering "democracies" to fight the invisible advance of Communism.
War is not inevitable, nor likely - at least from where things presently stand.
In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea and the Ukrainians were left high and dry, despite the might of Europe at its doorstep.
I can just see everyone lining up, as @Garpal Gumnut tried to elicit, to fight the yellow peril.

You quoting the Global Times is a bit like me quoting The Australian. They are not mouthpieces of the government and should be taken with a grain of salt. Although if you knew anything about the Global Times you would know that is unlike most newspapers in that it openly proclaims itself "confrontational' in taking on what it sees as western media bias.

I have to admit at being amused that people disagree with me. I seldom give my opinions, preferring instead to use data or verifiable sources to make or counter a point. As I re-read the recent postings in this thread, a great deal reminds me of how Republicans, without evidence, believed Biden stole the election.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Show where China has made a physical threat to Australia.
I can now show dozens which propose a war footing is needed or preparations are needed to fight China. That's aside from America gathering "democracies" to fight the invisible advance of Communism.
War is not inevitable, nor likely - at least from where things presently stand.
In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea and the Ukrainians were left high and dry, despite the might of Europe at its doorstep.
I can just see everyone lining up, as @Garpal Gumnut tried to elicit, to fight the yellow peril.

You quoting the Global Times is a bit like me quoting The Australian. They are not mouthpieces of the government and should be taken with a grain of salt. Although if you knew anything about the Global Times you would know that is unlike most newspapers in that it openly proclaims itself "confrontational' in taking on what it sees as western media bias.

I have to admit at being amused that people disagree with me. I seldom give my opinions, preferring instead to use data or verifiable sources to make or counter a point. As I re-read the recent postings in this thread, a great deal reminds me of how Republicans, without evidence, believed Biden stole the election.

I don't think the problem is as @sptrawler said, your views, but rather your views appearing in this stock thread, where your expressed views and arguments are more of a political nature than of a "Business, Investment and Economics'" nature.

And as we know politics and religion lead to all sorts of nasty comments and actions. I myself believe that I should rule the world and that all godbotherers should be made work for McDonalds, Harvey Norman, Huawei ( as cleaners ) and other benevolent institutions.

@Joe Blow has been petitioned by a number of posters to move this thread to that malodorous pond that is General Chat. I for one would probably not be moved to be involved in this thread if that were so, but as that great Orange Fool, the godbotherers friend, Donald Trump, said "It is as it is".

gg

 

[finicky]

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/members/dona-ferentes.66457/report

a great deal reminds me of how Republicans, without evidence, believed Biden stole the election.

Lives in a perfect bizarro world alternate universe

 

[rederob]

I don't think the problem is as @sptrawler said, your views, but rather your views appearing in this stock thread, where your expressed views and arguments are more of a political nature than of a "Business, Investment and Economics'" nature.

And as we know politics and religion lead to all sorts of nasty comments and actions. I myself believe that I should rule the world and that all godbotherers should be made work for McDonalds, Harvey Norman, Huawei ( as cleaners ) and other benevolent institutions.

@Joe Blow has been petitioned by a number of posters to move this thread to that malodorous pond that is General Chat. I for one would probably not be moved to be involved in this thread if that were so, but as that great Orange Fool, the godbotherers friend, Donald Trump, said "It is as it is".

gg

Sir Garpal
First, this is not exactly a "stocks" thread as it's under the "Trading and Investing" forum area.
I have made contributions with economic/trade/business comments and or links/charts in the following posts:
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My off-topic posts have mostly been responses to members who raise other matters.

Those like @pozindustrial who think I have a "platform" are voicing their baseless opinions.
I am completely agnostic about China.
My posts in this thread have largely conveyed the economic/trading environment, and the factors affecting it.
I have numerous times encouraged people who are not interested in those aspects or who want to run a personal agenda to take their conversation elsewhere.

Back on topic.
Chinese copper buyers have been deferring purchases in recent weeks due to very high prices, hoping their inventory will hold up long enough for a supply response. SFE warehouses stand at about 135k tonnes, and when combined with LME and COMEX we get less than a week's supply.
If buyers get caught out, then copper will bounce strongly. If there's a ship somewhere out there with copper sloshing around, then a sharp fall will result. However, with robust demand it is likely any significant fall will be temporary.
As I post, LME's physical price is 2 cents higher than COMEX's futures price, and 15 cents off copper's all time high.

 

[Smurf1976]

China is a meritocracy. I suggest you do more research.
Chinese citizens vote.

If there's only one choice then the fact that you're voting for it is a technicality of no real relevance to anything.

 

[Joe Blow]

But I do think @Joe Blow should think about moving this thread to general chat, it really has little to do with shares and is more of a general perception discussion.

I'll go through this thread tomorrow and tidy it up. I suspect I'll split it into two separate threads; one on the Chinese economy and one on China's relationship with the West/comparing political systems.

 

[over9k]

Absolutely nothing to glean from this at all. Absolutely nothing.

 

[Craton]

No jail from me @Craton i just ignore when i think the argument is nothing but brainwashing. And as you can see, you are not in my ignore list the redrob is another matter and everyone has to make a living but do not expect me to follow him or his masters,
about China, i spent 3y living there recently so more aware than many here of the + and - , and not linked to any racist feelings that is for sure.

All good mate. Just a tongue in cheek attempt at a joke. I didn't realise you meant the Ignore List. My bad.

 

[moXJO]

Given the many times your remarks have been proven wrong, I would agree with you.
Here's the Chinese law (their "Civil Code") you seem to want to discuss, which is off topic. Maybe you should take it to the general forum if you want to pursue it as again it shows from your links that you have no idea about what is different in China.

Oh Robbie

As much as I admire your commitment to stir up the masses. You are in effect defending one of the most brutal, dangerous and corrupt regimes in the world.

The fact I can't even mention people or stories out of fear for their families back in China should say enough.

 

[Craton]

With regards to "whipping boy", I was reminded of the Aussie correspondents saga of Sep 2020. Which contrasts nicely to the Chinese Journalists raid here in the same month.

Loading up the search engine, in an effort to remain unbiased/open minded and seeking other POV's, I also found the following Socialist article from that same month.

 

[Craton]

Smurf1976 is probably referring to the One Party state. One might be able to vote for other parties but these appear to be toothless tigers as per in bold below.

Relationships with the Chinese Communist Party​

In practice, only one political party holds effective power at the national level, namely the CCP. Its dominance is such that China is effectively a one-party state. The eight minor parties are part of the United Front and also take part in the political system, but they have limited power at national level.[3][4] The minor parties must accept the "leading role" of the CCP as a condition of their continued existence.[5] According to Human Rights Watch, these parties "play an advisory rather than an oppositional role".[6] The Chinese political system allows for the participation of some non-CCP members (independents) and members of minor parties in the National People's Congress (NPC), but they are vetted by the CCP. The Constitution of the People's Republic of China states in the preamble: "The system of the multi-party cooperation and political consultation led by the Communist Party of China will exist and develop for a long time to come."[7]

A squiz at the the Chinese Constitution and the amendments made at the 13th National People's Conference 2018 reveal:

The Constitution was amended on 11 March 2018, with 2,958 votes in favour, two against, and three abstentions.[16][17] It includes an assortment of revisions that further cement the Communist Party’s control and supremacy,[18] including setting up the National Supervisory Commission,[19] establishing a new anti-graft agency, extending the powers of the Communist Party’s graft watchdog, adding Hu Jintao's Scientific Outlook on Development and Xi Jinping Thought to the Preamble of the Constitution,[20] and removing term limits for both the President and Vice President, enabling Xi Jinping to remain president indefinitely.[21][22][23] The amendment also adds the phrases “Communist Party of China” and its “leadership” into the main body of the Constitution. Prior to the amendment, the CCP and its leadership were only mentioned in the preamble. Constitutional preambles are often not legally binding (as with the United States constitution[24]), and as the legal applicability of the Chinese constitution is debated[25] the amendment may be seen as providing a constitutional basis for China's status as a one-party state and formally rendering any competitive multi-party system unconstitutional.[21] Xi "now has the distinction of being the first Chinese leader ever to have his theories enshrined in the constitution during his own lifetime."[7] The leadership of the CPC is now constitutionally enshrined as the "defining feature of socialism with Chinese characteristics", and therefore it establishes one-party rule as an end-in-itself.[7] Xi says:[7]

Am reminded of that old adage: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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