China and The West: Political Systems Compared and Contrasted

[Craton]

To answer some of my own questions and thanks to IFocus's post, my Google Fu lead me to some interesting articles. Apologies if the links have been posted before.

Uighurs - Who are they?

Dissident leaks info re. Uighurs

Chinese Realities - Past and Present

Understanding Beijing Expansionism

An excellent article, IMHO, from former foreign minister Garth Evans where he sums up the whole warmongering stance nicely.

Talking up war over Taiwan flouts reason, fact, judgment and Australia’s national interest​

Moreover, I was reminded of QSD aka QUAD for a Free and Open Indo-Pacific region.

Propaganda, bar humbug!

 

[rederob]

To answer some of my own questions and thanks to IFocus's post, my Google Fu lead me to some interesting articles. Apologies if the links have been posted before.

Uighurs - Who are they?

Dissident leaks info re. Uighurs

Chinese Realities - Past and Present

Understanding Beijing Expansionism

An excellent article, IMHO, from former foreign minister Garth Evans where he sums up the whole warmongering stance nicely.

Talking up war over Taiwan flouts reason, fact, judgment and Australia’s national interest​

Moreover, I was reminded of QSD aka QUAD for a Free and Open Indo-Pacific region.

Propaganda, bar humbug!

Being labelled a propagandist without objectively looking at the underlying case smacks of propaganda!

 

[Craton]

Understanding Beijing expansionism link fixed

 

[sptrawler]

What intrigues me, is when people who criticise Australia and espouse the benefits and virtues of other countries, don't move there.
I had a blow up with a workmate who was 20 years older than me, he was Australian but had worked for several years in the U.K.
He would never stop going on about how crap Australia was, too many traffic lights instead of roundabouts, crap roads, crap pubs, crap government, crap nightlife, crap climate, basically crap everything.
So I asked him one day, if it is so good over in the U.K and so crap here, why don't you F%ck off and live there.
I guess that is the real question, why don't those that really don't like it in Australia, just f$ck off.

 

[over9k]

To be fair, people do like to bitch about, well, everything trawler.

You know, first world problems & all that.

 

[sptrawler]

To be fair, people do like to bitch about, well, everything trawler.

You know, first world problems & all that.

Yes, but I can only take it for so long, whining wankers eventually get under your skin.
Turnbull and Rudd are perfect examples for those who cant think of any.

 

[rederob]

What intrigues me, is when people who criticise Australia and espouse the benefits and virtues of other countries, don't move there.
I had a blow up with a workmate who was 20 years older than me, he was Australian but had worked for several years in the U.K.
He would never stop going on about how crap Australia was, too many traffic lights instead of roundabouts, crap roads, crap pubs, crap government, crap nightlife, crap climate, basically crap everything.
So I asked him one day, if it is so good over in the U.K and so crap here, why don't you F%ck off and live there.
I guess that is the real question, why don't those that really don't like it in Australia, just f$ck off.

You have it completely back to front.
People in Australia are criticising China's faults, but are doing so largely without evidence, a poor understanding of the facts, and often with hypocrisy.
Try understanding what you read rather than creating a straw man.

 

[sptrawler]

You have it completely back to front.
People in Australia are criticising China's faults, but are doing so largely without evidence, a poor understanding of the facts, and often with hypocrisy.
Try understanding what you read rather than creating a straw man.

Not at all, people are criticising the vaccine roll out, the quarantine issues and explaining how poor it is compared to other countries.
All Im saying is, if it is better there, f$ck off there, where ever it may be.
I never mentioned China.
The only one crapping on about how good China is and how crap Australia is, lives here and worked for the Australian Government.
Just shows how well off we are, when we can criticise those who we served.
Very lucky country IMO.

 

[rederob]

I never mentioned China.

Then you are posting in the wrong thread: it clearly says "China" in this one.

Not at all, people are criticising the vaccine roll out, the quarantine issues and explaining how poor it is compared to other countries.

Your favourite scapegoat - the media - has been front and centre in exposing how pathetic our government has been regarding the vaccine rollout. In those threads I have posted charts showing Australia sits with the developing world in terms of proportional daily vaccinations. Then there is the fact we were told we were waiting for vaccines that were going to be proven safe, and ending up with one - AstraZeneca - which more and more countries are refusing to continue using because of severe and deadly side effects!
State Premiers and epidemiologists have been asking the feds to lift their game on their quarantine responsibilities for well over a year. Morrison instead seems to be praying for a miracle.

All Im saying is, if it is better there, f$ck off there, where ever it may be. .........
The only one crapping on about how good China is and how crap Australia is, lives here and worked for the Australian Government.

Try to get your facts straight instead of wanting to make baseless personal commentary. Because if you were honest about your intention you would have compared and contrasted China's coronavirus efforts with Australia's, and you don't have to be Einstein to see that did not happen. On that point, here's an interesting take om perceptions.

 

[sptrawler]

The problem with the China assumption, is that is all it is, an assumption.
How people can quote the Chinese press as being factual, then in the next breath blame the Murdoch press for fabrication, shows an obvious bias to whatever suits the posters political leaning.

 

[rederob]

The problem with the China assumption, is that is all it is, an assumption.
How people can quote the Chinese press as being factual, then in the next breath blame the Murdoch press for fabrication, shows an obvious bias to whatever suits the posters political leaning.

Whatever you are talking about is irrelevant.
There are incontrovertible statements from senior bureaucrats, military officers, and politicians that make clear their position on China.
How these are reported does not alter their commentary.
On the other hand @Craton has linked to a number of opinion pieces. Quite a few of their comments are drawn the very same facts they have presented that I also have used to show that the West is on shaky ground when trying to discredit China.

 

[SirRumpole]

Whatever you are talking about is irrelevant.
There are incontrovertible statements from senior bureaucrats, military officers, and politicians that make clear their position on China.
How these are reported does not alter their commentary.
On the other hand @Craton has linked to a number of opinion pieces. Quite a few of their comments are drawn the very same facts they have presented that I also have used to show that the West is on shaky ground when trying to discredit China.

I think the question is valid.

You are continually criticising the West and praising China, so why not move to the communist nirvana of China ?

BTW, there are some aspects of the Chinese policy that I agree with.

Their government gets on and builds infrastructure without waiting for the rent seekers to beat up the prices.

 

[sptrawler]

I think the question is valid.

You are continually criticising the West and praising China, so why not move to the communist nirvana of China ?

That's the $64,000 question, probably because his life here is great, but loyalties die hard,

 

[rederob]

I think the question is valid.

You are continually criticising the West and praising China, so why not move to the communist nirvana of China ?

BTW, there are some aspects of the Chinese policy that I agree with.

Their government gets on and builds infrastructure without waiting for the rent seekers to beat up the prices.

Carefully read what I have written as I am critical of hypocrisy.
I keep asking for evidence when you make your claims about China and usually what I get back is that I have to take your word for it.

The biggest mistake that I see many make is that they think China is authoritarian. China is a meritocracy that builds on socialist principles, but with a Chinese flavour. It's a command economy that uses a 5 year planning model which has significant grass roots input. Most people over 18 vote, and most regard this as their practice of "democracy".

Australians don't vote directly for their PM, and Chinese don't vote directly for their "president" (really no such title, but anyway...). Americans vote directly for their President, but as Trump was voted in with 3 million fewer votes than Clinton in 2016, you have to wonder how representative that system is, especially given the voter turnout.

Isn't the better question why we think democracies are so great when they have stagnated for the past 40 years?

 

[basilio]

That's the $64,000 question, probably because his life here is great, but loyalties die hard,

Not cool SP..

IMV a critically important point about an open democracy is a capacity to recognise what can/should be improved in the country and having some influence on a Government and Bureaucracy to change for the better. Slagging off at people for such criticisms and saying they should go to Russia or China or whatever and refusing to engage in the discussion is ....

And going the next step and suggesting "disloyalty" ? Bring back Senator McCarthy and the House of Un-Americian activities.

 

[basilio]

Understanding Beijing expansionism link fixed

Interesting contribution to the discussion. IMV well worth a read.

 

[sptrawler]

Not cool SP..

IMV a critically important point about an open democracy is a capacity to recognise what can/should be improved in the country and having some influence on a Government and Bureaucracy to change for the better. Slagging off at people for such criticisms and saying they should go to Russia or China or whatever and refusing to engage in the discussion is ....

And going the next step and suggesting "disloyalty" ? Bring back Senator McCarthy and the House of Un-Americian activities.

When someone uses the comparison of the political and or economic performances of countries, the question has to be asked, why would the person stay in the country they argue has less to offer.
It isnt slagging off, it IMO is a perfectly good question.
The answer may give us the insight we require, to appreciate the benefits.
It is the same as someone saying Sydney is great and Perth is crap, yet live in Perth, it may be because of the better job, better climate, family ties etc.
But to say I am slagging them off, by asking them to substatiate their claim, just shows how screwed up some of us have become.
I think you are trying to apply some sort of pressure on me, why? I certainly dont know.
And it is disloyal to constantly bite the hand that feeds you.
Also on the point of refusing to engage in discussion, from memory my initial post to rederob, was to say that if he lived in china and made the disparaging comments about the Chinese President that he makes about our P.M, he would be put in jail.
Rederob disputed that and I posted several instances of that happening, Rederob didn't acknowledge it just ignored and moved on.
Hate to prick your love bubble Bas, but get it right if you are going to post it, that is also a critically important part about a democracy and why we have defamation laws.
In Australia you can say what you like as long as it can be shown to be true an not slanderous, i'm not sure that is the case in China, it may be.

 

[basilio]

When someone uses the comparison of the political and or economic performances of countries, the question has to be asked, why would the person stay in the country they argue has less to offer.

Perhaps because one can't just move to another country on a whim ? And these days if you try you generally end up in places like Nauru. PNG pr Christmas Island...

Anyway I thought you went too far imply that Redrobs basic loyalties were to China. IMV unnecessary which was why I used the comparison with the worst excesses of McCarthyism.

Why not stick to just discussing the perceived good points/poor points of the political systems ?

 

[sptrawler]

Perhaps because one can't just move to another country on a whim ? And these days if you try you generally end up in places like Nauru. PNG pr Christmas Island...

Anyway I thought you went too far imply that Redrobs basic loyalties were to China. IMV unnecessary which was why I used the comparison with the worst excesses of McCarthyism.

Why not stick to just discussing the perceived good points/poor points of the political systems ?

From Robs posts, his loyalties appear to lie with China which is fair enough, but like I said when you give him examples that he doesn't like he ignores and moves on.
I don't understand your basis for complaint, explain how i went too far? My last post covered all your comments.

How is it not discussing the good points and bad points of a political system, when you ask someone why they prefer to live in the one they feel is inferior?

By the way you can't just move to another country, most countries have restrictions, do you think you can go to China and just buy a house? Australia and the U.K are very benevolent, unlike most, that is why we have so many issues with people trying to get here.

Why not stop trying to brow beat me, I'm making valid points, just because you don't like it? Doesn't mean you're correct.
I will have to respond tomorrow to further posts Bas, things to do.

 

[SirRumpole]

Carefully read what I have written as I am critical of hypocrisy.
I keep asking for evidence when you make your claims about China and usually what I get back is that I have to take your word for it.

The biggest mistake that I see many make is that they think China is authoritarian. China is a meritocracy that builds on socialist principles, but with a Chinese flavour. It's a command economy that uses a 5 year planning model which has significant grass roots input. Most people over 18 vote, and most regard this as their practice of "democracy".

Australians don't vote directly for their PM, and Chinese don't vote directly for their "president" (really no such title, but anyway...). Americans vote directly for their President, but as Trump was voted in with 3 million fewer votes than Clinton in 2016, you have to wonder how representative that system is, especially given the voter turnout.

Isn't the better question why we think democracies are so great when they have stagnated for the past 40 years?

Countries like China are getting rich on the backs of Western consumers buying their cheap junk.

Trump had the right idea. Get manufacturing back to the home countries and give employment to locals instead of foreigners.

It was the Lima Convention that gave countries like China a leg up at the expense of Western nations and they are now abusing that kindness.