China and The West: Political Systems Compared and Contrasted

[rederob]

I unfortunately allowed my subscription to Politken lapse.

Would it be possible for you to summarise the content @rederob .

gg

If Danish companies use Chinese telecommunications equipment, they risk losing the USA as a customer in the future.
According to experts, new American demands testify that Biden is expanding its feud with China to Danish territory.
But this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I'm not sure America is doing itself favours by putting so many noses out of joint round the world.
America has not been the biggest market place for a long time.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

If Danish companies use Chinese telecommunications equipment, they risk losing the USA as a customer in the future.
According to experts, new American demands testify that Biden is expanding its feud with China to Danish territory.
But this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I'm not sure America is doing itself favours by putting so many noses out of joint round the world.
America has not been the biggest market place for a long time.

Thanks.

gg

 

[Craton]

FWIW, rederrob you post up some great counterpoints. Like statistics, there's no doubt an opposing argument to any statement.
I'll not reply to all you posted (else qldfrog jails me, lol) but want to add this about testing of I.T. equip. because some bugs can lay hidden for a long period of time or not dealt with in an appropriate and timely manner.

Examples, a couple of h/ware, CPU "bugs" that were in the news a few years ago.

Meltdown was reported back in 1995 by of all things, the NSA. Took the world a while before this bug was patched.
Spectre was reported back in 2002/03 but 2018 before it was acted upon.

Further reading from the IEEE and specifically these two vulnerabilities.

"These types of attacks, called Meltdown and Spectre, were no ordinary bugs. At the time it was discovered, Meltdown could hack all Intel x86 microprocessors and IBM Power processors, as well as some ARM-based processors. Spectre and its many variations added Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) processors to that list. In other words, nearly the whole world of computing was vulnerable."

I do like the following from Wikipedia.

On 28 January 2018, it was reported that Intel shared news of the Meltdown and Spectre security vulnerabilities with Chinese technology companies, before notifying the U.S. government of the flaws.[25]

It is a shame that the West/China question has become toxic and the spirit of co-operation, as seen above, doesn't prevail.

FYI. I may not post again here for awhile however, I expect other contributors will keep personal attacks out of it and stick to unbiased and fact based debate.

 

[rederob]

I'll ... add this about testing of I.T. equip. because some bugs can lay hidden for a long period of time or not dealt with in an appropriate and timely manner.

Examples, a couple of h/ware, CPU "bugs" that were in the news a few years ago.

Meltdown was reported back in 1995 by of all things, the NSA. Took the world a while before this bug was patched.
Spectre was reported back in 2002/03 but 2018 before it was acted upon.

Yes, as I said, "The principal vulnerability of any technology is via hacking".
The American argument against Huawei defies basic spycraft. If you want to infiltrate a system you do it through a "friendly" after it has been installed. Security sensitive systems are tested to the limit before installation.
If China was serious about wanting to hack a US 5G network they would be pretty stupid to do it through their own equipment as there is no deniability option.

 

[Value Collector]

Er well, they did defend Australia during WW2.

What has China done for us apart from buy stuff from us that they actually need ?

China was fighting against the Japanese in WW2 long before the Americans entered the war, remember the USA didn’t enter the war until they were attacked.

Yes China buy what they need from us, but they also sell us what we need, it’s mutual we get rich selling them stuff, and get to buy cheap goods from them.

China, The forgotten ally of WW2

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes China buy what they need from us, but they also sell us what we need, it’s mutual we get rich selling them stuff, and get to buy cheap goods from them.

That would be fine if they didn't turn a lot of that money into weapons which they then wave in other people's faces.

 

[qldfrog]

FWIW, rederrob you post up some great counterpoints. Like statistics, there's no doubt an opposing argument to any statement.
I'll not reply to all you posted (else qldfrog jails me, lol) but want to add this about testing of I.T. equip. because some bugs can lay hidden for a long period of time or not dealt with in an appropriate and timely manner.

Examples, a couple of h/ware, CPU "bugs" that were in the news a few years ago.

Meltdown was reported back in 1995 by of all things, the NSA. Took the world a while before this bug was patched.
Spectre was reported back in 2002/03 but 2018 before it was acted upon.

Further reading from the IEEE and specifically these two vulnerabilities.


I do like the following from Wikipedia.


It is a shame that the West/China question has become toxic and the spirit of co-operation, as seen above, doesn't prevail.

FYI. I may not post again here for awhile however, I expect other contributors will keep personal attacks out of it and stick to unbiased and fact based debate.

No jail from me @Craton i just ignore when i think the argument is nothing but brainwashing. And as you can see, you are not in my ignore list the redrob is another matter and everyone has to make a living but do not expect me to follow him or his masters,
about China, i spent 3y living there recently so more aware than many here of the + and - , and not linked to any racist feelings that is for sure.

 

[rederob]

Dutton vows to call out Beijing and declares everyday Australians are with the government​

Well, he is in a class of his own when it comes to stupid!
Dutton says, "...they know that [what] we are saying is factually based.”
What facts does he present?
All he can really point to is "cyber attacks," but the world leader is the USA, with significant Australian cooperation in the Pacific region.
Anyone with half a brain (not Dutton, clearly) knows that cyber warfare is nowadays de rigueur across the globe.

Dutton is pumping the Trump line of a rigged election and hopes if you say it often enough, then most people will believe you. In Dutton's defence, as this thread shows, if it's from China then it's a lie. That's all there is to it! Like this comment:

That would be fine if they didn't turn a lot of that money into weapons which they then wave in other people's faces.

China has kept its defence spending at around 1.3 percent of its GDP in recent years, which half the average global level of 2.6 percent, and much less than America's 3.4%.

Internet searches on "war with China" consistently boil down to actions and provocations from the West, especially pumping Taiwan as a catalyst. And that's despite the West endorsing a "one China" policy.

At an international level America had an opportunity during the pandemic to steal the march on China through so called vaccine diplomacy. The USA quickly got runs on the board with vaccine production, but until last week had made little to nothing available to other nations. On the other hand China has sent covid medical teams to dozens of nations, and supplied around half its vaccine output to over 80 nations so far. China also allowed other interested nations to license and produce their vaccines.

If you choose to believe Dutton, ask him for the facts that apparently we know about, because right now his claims are somewhat hollow.

 

[SirRumpole]

Dutton vows to call out Beijing and declares everyday Australians are with the government​

Well, he is in a class of his own when it comes to stupid!
Dutton says, "...they know that [what] we are saying is factually based.”
What facts does he present?
All he can really point to is "cyber attacks," but the world leader is the USA, with significant Australian cooperation in the Pacific region.
Anyone with half a brain (not Dutton, clearly) knows that cyber warfare is nowadays de rigueur across the globe.

Dutton is pumping the Trump line of a rigged election and hopes if you say it often enough, then most people will believe you. In Dutton's defence, as this thread shows, if it's from China then it's a lie. That's all there is to it! Like this comment:

View attachment 123681

China has kept its defense spending at around 1.3 percent of its GDP in recent years, which half the average global level of 2.6 percent, and much less than America's 3.4%.

Internet searches on "war with China" consistently boil down to actions and provocations from the West, especially pumping Taiwan as a catalyst. And that's despite the West endorsing a "one China" policy.

At an international level America had an opportunity during the pandemic to steal the march on China through so called vaccine diplomacy. The USA quickly got runs on the board with vaccine production, but until last week had made little to nothing available to other nations. On the other hand China has sent covid medical teams to dozens of nations, and supplied around half its vaccine output to over 80 nations so far. China also allowed other interested nations to license and produce their vaccines.

If you choose to believe Dutton, ask him for the facts that apparently we know about, because right now his claims are somewhat hollow.

So where do you stand on the concept of democracy vs totalitarianism ?

 

[Value Collector]

That would be fine if they didn't turn a lot of that money into weapons which they then wave in other people's faces.

In the last 50 years who has invaded more countries, China or the USA? Who spends more money on weapons China or the USA?

 

[rederob]

So where do you stand on the concept of democracy vs totalitarianism ?

China is a meritocracy. I suggest you do more research.
Chinese citizens vote.
They have 5 levels of government.
Xi is elected head of state just as Morrison is elected, by the Party!
And Xi can be deposed.

 

[SirRumpole]

China is a meritocracy. I suggest you do more research.
Chinese citizens vote.
They have 5 levels of government.
Xi is elected head of state just as Morrison is elected, by the Party!
And Xi can be deposed.

Are you kidding ?

Chinese citizens vote for one party. They have no choice.

I really think some people here are propagandists.

 

[SirRumpole]

In the last 50 years who has invaded more countries, China or the USA? Who spends more money on weapons China or the USA?

The USA has borne the brunt of the defence of the free world hence the large military spending.

If you want to be a subject of Russia or China, feel free to live there and see how you go.

 

[rederob]

Are you kidding ?

Chinese citizens vote for one party. They have no choice.

I really think some people here are propagandists.

Why don't you inform yourself?

The USA has borne the brunt of the defence of the free world hence the large military spending.

If you want to be a subject of Russia or China, feel free to live there and see how you go.

They are non sequiturs.
America did well in Vietnam defending who?
Or in Iraq?
America has littered the globe with conflicts that failed to resolve. Afghanistan is the latest example.

 

[SirRumpole]

Why don't you inform yourself?

Why don't you stop propagandising ?

What is the name of the Chinese Opposition Party ?

 

[qldfrog]

Why don't you stop propagandising ?

What is the name of the Chinese Opposition Party ?

SirRumpole, do you now see the new face of the left?
The new fascism is not with Putin or Trump...

 

[rederob]

Why don't you stop propagandising ?

What is the name of the Chinese Opposition Party ?

Why don't you have a reasoned basis for your comments?
You seem to believe democracy is the only form of government that is - or can be - successful.
We can see from the USA, UK, Brazil and India how poorly it works in a crisis.

In terms of propaganda in this thread, it is you and some others that post without having a sound basis for your remarks.

 

[SirRumpole]

Why don't you have a reasoned basis for your comments?
You seem to believe democracy is the only form of government that is - or can be - successful.
We can see from the USA, UK, Brazil and India how poorly it works in a crisis.

In terms of propaganda in this thread, it is you and some others that post without having a sound basis for your remarks.

Well you are welcome to campaign for the Communist Party at the next election.

How do you think you will go ?

We can see from the USA, UK, Brazil and India how poorly it works in a crisis.

And we can see from Australia and NZ how well it can work in a crisis.

 

[rederob]

Well you are welcome to campaign for the Communist Party at the next election.

How do you think you will go ?

We can see from the USA, UK, Brazil and India how poorly it works in a crisis.

And we can see from Australia and NZ how well it can work in a crisis.

Please understand this that is a thread about China's economics and not its politics.
If you cannot add meaningfully, then just avoid the thread.

However, in regard to you point, Australia and New Zealand adopted the Chinese approach of containment (lockdowns) and elimination.

 

[sptrawler]

Well you are welcome to campaign for the Communist Party at the next election.

How do you think you will go ?

We can see from the USA, UK, Brazil and India how poorly it works in a crisis.

And we can see from Australia and NZ how well it can work in a crisis.

At least you can be relatively confident, that the information coming out of those Countries, has some basis in fact.